Comics Marc Guggenheim's latest explanation for why some folks hate Brand New Day

[carnageehw]

And people wonder why marvel don't listen to fans.

Are you making the point that not liking soap opera dramas and the same scenarios are bad?

You know what happens when you write an eternaly single character? You get stupid, unrelatable drama like Grey's Anatomy.

It's hard to write a mature character who can't handle something that most people know how to deal with, like a relationship.

 

[kguillou]

^^Amen brother!

 

[Styleshift]

And people wonder why marvel don't listen to fans.

I was just voicing my personal opinion to other members. I thought everyone on this board was smart enough to realize that...but apparently there's always that one bad apple eh?

Voicing my opinion to marvel would be a waste of time.
Everyone pretty much knows that the sales dictate the direction of Amazing. Not fans, and sometimes not even the writers.

 

[farmernudie]

They've turned Spidey into the WONDER YEARS!!!

HE can never have his girl, even though he is married to her, so they changed the rules by changing history.

Now he can date in an eternal loop, break up, date, break up, break up, break up... until someone smart enough allows Kevin and Winnie....er....PEte and MJ to get back together again for real.

 

[Themanofbat]

Why not just use Doc Strange? It would have left a less sour taste in the mouth of fans. Doc helping Spidey like this have happened before and would be in key with continuity and much more in character.

But what really makes me an unhappy camper, is the fact that the last 3-4 years of Spider-man books are useless elsewhere/limbo type books.

As said before

WHAT MAKES SPIDER-MAN A UNIQUE BOOK is the tight continuity. You feel like you know the guy. Let's face it, life seems confusing sometimes and what really made me love Pete as a kid, was the fact that I could always count on the guy. It wasn't the fights and super powered heroics - It was like a lifelong friend living a parallel life to my own, coping with the same issues as I. Continuity is actually the core of Spider-man. It’s what makes him real and relatable.

And from the teaser indications that we've seen, it looks like continuity will be restored (or at least, things will worj within the big picture), and from what I see with these new teams, especially with Slott on board, Spidey's continuity will be better than it's ever been.

 

[Miken Ayers]

They've turned Spidey into the WONDER YEARS!!!

HE can never have his girl, even though he is married to her, so they changed the rules by changing history.

Now he can date in an eternal loop, break up, date, break up, break up, break up... until someone smart enough allows Kevin and Winnie....er....PEte and MJ to get back together again for real.

Wasn't the dating Spider-Man only interesting the first time, because Peter could potentially marry any of those girls? So now instead of being creative they decided to revisit that era with ZERO demand other than behind the scenes, and there's nothing interesting about it since we all know each girlfriend will be akin to the villain of the month. Kind of like that episode of Seinfeld where Jerry temporarily got feelings after a girl broke up with him, and Elaine says, "What's the big deal? You break up with a girl every week.".

Not a Seinfeld fan after I got older and smarter, but that part was at least funny. So BND fans must also be Seinfeld fans, while the anti BND crowd is for gay marriage.

By the way, what's the deal with bringing Harry back....

 

[kguillou]

To quote Quesada himself: "The books are just more fun with Harry in them.". Direct quote people.

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

I've got it... Spidey is stuck in MOJO WORLD!!! that explains the bunch of big-assed events that got swept under the rug... the only way to bring back Harry, undo MJ's marriage, etc... and NO MAGIC... I oughta write for Marvel... or be part of the Spidey Brain trust...

 

[farmernudie]

IF "books are more fun with Harry in them"...I'll be waiting for guest appearances next with Harry in every title!

 

[carnageehw]

To quote Quesada himself: "The books are just more fun with Harry in them.". Direct quote people.

I can't wait till the issue that explains why Harry didn't die:

Harry being wisked away to the hospital
"I need 3 cc's of fun, STAT!"
"That's too much fun doctor!"
"This man is going to die! FUN him dammit!"

 

[shinlyle]

That only works if they bring in a clown who then takes a syringe and makes it into a balloon animal before shooting it into Harry's bloodstream, resulting in he and the doctor doing the "Young Frankenstein" thing and singing "Puttin' on the Ritz".

 

[Jack O Lantern]

I was just voicing my personal opinion to other members. I thought everyone on this board was smart enough to realize that...but apparently there's always that one bad apple eh?

Voicing my opinion to marvel would be a waste of time.
Everyone pretty much knows that the sales dictate the direction of Amazing. Not fans, and sometimes not even the writers.

But you're wrong. I'm all for the belief that everybody is equal and their opinions deserve the same merit. But in this instance you are simply wrong. Spidey is soap opera, that is what his book is about, that's what sets him apart. Saying you like Spidey but not the soap opera is saying I like Star Trek but not the sci-fic in it, I like the West Wing but not the polictics, The Spranos but not the mafia aspect.

If you want a superhero book without the soap oprea, read a different book.

 

[moraldeficiency]

But you're wrong. I'm all for the belief that everybody is equal and their opinions deserve the same merit. But in this instance you are simply wrong. Spidey is soap opera, that is what his book is about, that's what sets him apart. Saying you like Spidey but not the soap opera is saying I like Star Trek but not the sci-fic in it, I like the West Wing but not the polictics, The Spranos but not the mafia aspect.

If you want a superhero book without the soap oprea, read a different book.

You know that's funny cause I actually like star trek but not the sci-fi in it. I was a fan of the original series which was more about morality twilight zone type lessons than magical food replicators or whatever the hell.

Everyone views art through their own perspective lens, so for some spider-man's great cause it's an everyman tale, for others it's the melodramatic life he leads, some like his power set, while others like the banter, some appreciate a hero actually rooted in responsibility instead of vengence or payback, for others it's the science angle and for a select few it's overcoming adversity. All of those are "right" answers depending on the person stating them. The only "wrong" answer is to assume that you know what's right and then carry that overinflated sense of order into telling other people what they should be thinking. So you're wrong, simply straight up wrong and you manage to be wrong while at the same time being overbearing, nicely played.

 

[Jack O Lantern]

You know that's funny cause I actually like star trek but not the sci-fi in it. I was a fan of the original series which was more about morality twilight zone type lessons than magical food replicators or whatever the hell.

Everyone views art through their own perspective lens, so for some spider-man's great cause it's an everyman tale, for others it's the melodramatic life he leads, some like his power set, while others like the banter, some appreciate a hero actually rooted in responsibility instead of vengence or payback, for others it's the science angle and for a select few it's overcoming adversity. All of those are "right" answers depending on the person stating them. The only "wrong" answer is to assume that you know what's right and then carry that overinflated sense of order into telling other people what they should be thinking. So you're wrong, simply straight up wrong and you manage to be wrong while at the same time being overbearing, nicely played.

You know what is funny? The fact that you call me wrong and overbearing by making a list of attributes that people may like about Spidey other than the soap opera aspect. Here's the punch line. With the exception of power set and banter everything you listed would not be possible without the soap opera. And if it's power set and banter than does it for you, who cares about character and story?

Peter Parker is an an everyman because he deals with everyday problems, like money, education, family, friends and women. That's what a soap opera is. It is through the soap opera that we learn about him. When he has life take a dump on him over and over again and see him overcome that, we then buy into him lifting tons of machienery of his back through sheer will power, without the soap opera we would look at that panel and say, "Yeah right, he couldn't lift that." We know about the importance that he places on responsiblity through his life as Peter Parker. The idea of responsiblity is putting your responsablities above personal gain, if Peter Parker did not have the soap opera life style we wouldn't know that he is being responsible. And the scienetific aspect, you can't just go, hey this guy is smart, people won't buy it, you have to show him learning and developing these talents and how were we shown this, without it seeming forced, by having his soap opera life style interupt his classes, other wise it's a boring and obvious set up.

The soap opera aspect of Peter's life is the glue that holds everything together, without it he is just another guy in a coustume.

 

[Styleshift]

But you're wrong. I'm all for the belief that everybody is equal and their opinions deserve the same merit. But in this instance you are simply wrong. Spidey is soap opera, that is what his book is about, that's what sets him apart. Saying you like Spidey but not the soap opera is saying I like Star Trek but not the sci-fic in it, I like the West Wing but not the polictics, The Spranos but not the mafia aspect.

If you want a superhero book without the soap oprea, read a different book.

Maybe I should have been more clear...
by annoying soap opera elements, I just meant that they are only retreading ground. There fore its become boring and irrelevant. (for me at least i'm not trying to dictate my thoughts on anyone as some posters used to think about me.)

Black Cat was pretty much when the well dried up on potential girlfriends for Peter Parker. he's gone from older mature girl to party girl to smart science girl to crazy girl to superhero/bad girl.

for 20 years Mj has been the ultimate love interest for Peter.
The two have been married.
Mj and Peter (regardless of the kitty pride thing) still date in ultimate spidey.
Mj is the only girl he loves within the movies.

So in a sense i feel that since they were trying to write themselves out of a supposed "box" that they have put themselves in. In doing so, they've put themselves in another incredibly stupid one seeing that All girls in comparison will fail to compare to MJ.

What I'm trying to get is why are you telling me my opinion is wrong??!
You have some fans that think gwen should have never died. Some that think Peter should have never left high school....are they wrong? no its just there opinion. there is no definite way to tell a spidey story...the only way to tell one is to have good writing and a direction that works.

but if you were wondering.
I honestly don't get why some fans still buy marvel's reasoning though....

The stories don't even work the same as they used to when compared to current day....I don't get how some fans believe that (specifically) during the Kraven's last hunt arc, how that story could ever still be told the same with a couple just moving in together rather than newly weds. theres so much more at stake because you just got ready to spend the rest of your life with this person....your commited enough to get a ball and chain attached.
If you just move in with a chick you can walk out at anytime and its not necessarily wrong. (although there is guilt.)

but eh I'm not going around telling people there wrong. I voice my opinion loud and clear and than I shut up. lol.

 

[Styleshift]

You know that's funny cause I actually like star trek but not the sci-fi in it. I was a fan of the original series which was more about morality twilight zone type lessons than magical food replicators or whatever the hell.

Everyone views art through their own perspective lens, so for some spider-man's great cause it's an everyman tale, for others it's the melodramatic life he leads, some like his power set, while others like the banter, some appreciate a hero actually rooted in responsibility instead of vengence or payback, for others it's the science angle and for a select few it's overcoming adversity. All of those are "right" answers depending on the person stating them. The only "wrong" answer is to assume that you know what's right and then carry that overinflated sense of order into telling other people what they should be thinking. So you're wrong, simply straight up wrong and you manage to be wrong while at the same time being overbearing, nicely played.

Thank you.
You even did it without necessarily insulting him...but I'm sure he'll find the big words offensive. lol.

 

[moraldeficiency]

You know what is funny? The fact that you call me wrong and overbearing by making a list of attributes that people may like about Spidey other than the soap opera aspect. Here's the punch line. With the exception of power set and banter everything you listed would not be possible without the soap opera. And if it's power set and banter than does it for you, who cares about character and story?

Peter Parker is an an everyman because he deals with everyday problems, like money, education, family, friends and women. That's what a soap opera is. It is through the soap opera that we learn about him. When he has life take a dump on him over and over again and see him overcome that, we then buy into him lifting tons of machienery of his back through sheer will power, without the soap opera we would look at that panel and say, "Yeah right, he couldn't lift that." We know about the importance that he places on responsiblity through his life as Peter Parker. The idea of responsiblity is putting your responsablities above personal gain, if Peter Parker did not have the soap opera life style we wouldn't know that he is being responsible. And the scienetific aspect, you can't just go, hey this guy is smart, people won't buy it, you have to show him learning and developing these talents and how were we shown this, without it seeming forced, by having his soap opera life style interupt his classes, other wise it's a boring and obvious set up.

The soap opera aspect of Peter's life is the glue that holds everything together, without it he is just another guy in a coustume.

You know what's funny? It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, that's a great show.

What's sad? That you think your opinion, OPINION mind you, is right and other opinions are wrong. Go look up opinion, then the word right and get back to me.

Edit: Also I made that list not to show you were wrong and overbearing that you accomplished in your own post, that was made just to show that what floats your boat about a character might not be what others like or even care about in the slightest. Case in point current ASM supporters vs. boycotters. Current readers are able to deal with OMD and the horrific ramifications while for the boycotters it's completely inexcusable. Who's right? Both sides are right, because that's what they believe.

 

[Styleshift]

IF "books are more fun with Harry in them"...I'll be waiting for guest appearances next with Harry in every title!

Has anyone realized Harry has been DIVORCED 3 TIMES??!!!

Wouldn't that age Peter??!

I really find it funny how if you watch really closely, alot of details in the book seem to age Spidey, yet they are trying to force him to act more like his younger self by making very immature decisions.

NWTD seems to be better about that...but I am sure once slott wraps up it'll return to "no...I will not be crushed by U!"

or "drrrrrruuuuuuuggggsss"

 

[Jack O Lantern]

You know what's funny? It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, that's a great show.

What's sad? That you think your opinion, OPINION mind you, is right and other opinions are wrong. Go look up opinion, then the word right and get back to me.

I know exactly what opinion means. And anyone who is familar with my posts know that I'm all for that, and that I have even defended people having opinions which are not popular.

Edit: Also I made that list not to show you were wrong and overbearing that you accomplished in your own post, that was made just to show that what floats your boat about a character might not be what others like or even care about in the slightest. Case in point current ASM supporters vs. boycotters. Current readers are able to deal with OMD and the horrific ramifications while for the boycotters it's completely inexcusable. Who's right? Both sides are right, because that's what they believe

I know exactly what opinion means. And anyone who is familar with my posts know that I'm all for that, and that I have even defended people having opinions which are not popular.

What you and a lot of other peole don't realise is that at certain times there is right and there is wrong and the soap opera aspect of Spider-Man is as big a part of Spider-Man as sticking to walls. And to get rid of that would be wrong. What you think of Gwen's death, OMD, Clone Saga, a black coustume, that is all a matter of opinion. But what we're talking about here is a matter of fact, it's like Batman being dark. You can't take that away from the character or he falls apart.

 

[Styleshift]

I know exactly what opinion means. And anyone who is familar with my posts know that I'm all for that, and that I have even defended people having opinions which are not popular.

What you and a lot of other peole don't realise is that at certain times there is right and there is wrong and the soap opera aspect of Spider-Man is as big a part of Spider-Man as sticking to walls. And to get rid of that would be wrong. What you think of Gwen's death, OMD, Clone Saga, a black coustume, that is all a matter of opinion. But what we're talking about here is a matter of fact, it's like Batman being dark. You can't take that away from the character or he falls apart.

Marrying Spidey off never took away the soap opera. It opened new avenues for the character that went pretty much unexplored.
Agreed. You can't make Batman light (again)
but you can make spidey single and immature again even if it means destroying continuity to do so.

Character progression....bah! who needs it?!

 

[Jack O Lantern]

Marrying Spidey off never took away the soap opera. It opened new avenues for the character that went pretty much unexplored.

Actually it did, but it shouldn'y have. MJ should have been pissed at Peter missing annivereies and hoildays etc but she was rarely written that way. You can have soap opera in that way, but it's still soap opera

Agreed. You can't make Batman light (again)
but you can make spidey single and immature again even if it means destroying continuity to do so.

Character progression....bah! who needs it?!

I'm not a fan of OMD, but I feel that the new continuity has been fun and refreshing.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I know exactly what opinion means.

I don't think so, or maybe you're using some funky dictionary.

And anyone who is familar with my posts know that I'm all for that, and that I have even defended people having opinions which are not popular.

You're all for that as long as they agree with you, when they don't you go:

But you're wrong. I'm all for the belief that everybody is equal and their opinions deserve the same merit. But in this instance you are simply wrong.

^which kinda contradicts that you know what the word opinion means.

What you and a lot of other peole don't realise is that at certain times there is right and there is wrong

When we're discussing opinions and personal likes and dislikes this is never true. In fact this is the only opinion that can be considered wrong.

and the soap opera aspect of Spider-Man is as big a part of Spider-Man as sticking to walls. And to get rid of that would be wrong. What you think of Gwen's death, OMD, Clone Saga, a black coustume, that is all a matter of opinion. But what we're talking about here is a matter of fact, it's like Batman being dark. You can't take that away from the character or he falls apart.

In your opinion it is, and frankly I agree with you, but I'm not going to say that because I believe this others that find this point a non issue are wrong. That's like me saying you're wrong for having blue as your favorite color cause green is superior.
Ah, now you're going into character fundamentals and I completely disagree with you. Batman being dark is merely a side effect of his psychosis in my opinion. To me the motivations are key and batman's "darkness" is merely a result of devoting his life to vengence while understanding and utilizing the fear in himself.

To me the soap opera thing is one of the basics but what I like about Spider-Man, why I'm a fan really doesn't have much to do with that, that is merely one point that makes a Spider-Man story more complex and interesting. For me it's that Spider-Man gets his ass kicked. He was the first super to actively loss rather often. That's far more heroic in my mind than anything say Superman has ever done. Doing the right thing, getting back up, overcoming odds stacked against you simply because its the right thing, because that's the ultimate form of responsiblity to go beyond yourself and take responsibility for the world you live in, that's true heroism in my mind, and that's why I read (or at least used to read). Spider-Man doesn't go looking for fights or punishing criminals, he's just there ready to help regardless of the situation because he's able. To me that's what stands out and makes Spider-Man unique as many other books have that soap opera feel to them. Now I'm not saying that you're wrong for liking the soap opera as key, just that we have different opinions.

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

but here's the thing... Soap Opera IS important for Peter/Spidey, but Joe Q took the fun out of it by killing the marriage in such a stupid way.
Now that we know that Peter/Spider-Man can't get married, because it "ages" him... (Harry did it three times plus divorces, yet he's the Super-duper-fun-Young-guy that is a necessity to have) We are going to have the following type of scenario for a Looong time:
Generic girl: Oh It's so nice to be on a date with you Pete...
Peter: Yeah! Generic Flavor of the Month Girl... Wanna go to the Coffee Bean?
Generic girl: Sure! I'm dying for a moccha latte after that trip to the museum.
Peter: (Thinks) I'm gonna get lucky to- Spider-Sense Tingling!
Generic girl: What's wrong?
Peter: I gotta go! My aunt needs some medicine! I'll call U later!

Peter goes and does the Spidey thing... Dumped girl is mad at Pete... Lather, rinse, repeat...

 

[Jack O Lantern]

I don't think so, or maybe you're using some funky dictionary.



You're all for that as long as they agree with you, when they don't you go:



^which kinda contradicts that you know what the word opinion means.

Have you read my posts outside this thread? If you have you realised that I have defended people whether or not I have agreed with them or not.

When we're discussing opinions and personal likes and dislikes this is never true. In fact this is the only opinion that can be considered wrong.



In your opinion it is, and frankly I agree with you, but I'm not going to say that because I believe this others that find this point a non issue are wrong. That's like me saying you're wrong for having blue as your favorite color cause green is superior.
Ah, now you're going into character fundamentals and I completely disagree with you. Batman being dark is merely a side effect of his psychosis in my opinion. To me the motivations are key and batman's "darkness" is merely a result of devoting his life to vengence while understanding and utilizing the fear in himself.

Yes but if you lose the darkness, then the motivations don't have the same impact because they don't seem realistic.

To me the soap opera thing is one of the basics but what I like about Spider-Man, why I'm a fan really doesn't have much to do with that, that is merely one point that makes a Spider-Man story more complex and interesting. For me it's that Spider-Man gets his ass kicked. He was the first super to actively loss rather often. That's far more heroic in my mind than anything say Superman has ever done. Doing the right thing, getting back up, overcoming odds stacked against you simply because its the right thing, because that's the ultimate form of responsiblity to go beyond yourself and take responsibility for the world you live in, that's true heroism in my mind, and that's why I read (or at least used to read). Spider-Man doesn't go looking for fights or punishing criminals, he's just there ready to help regardless of the situation because he's able. To me that's what stands out and makes Spider-Man unique as many other books have that soap opera feel to them. Now I'm not saying that you're wrong for liking the soap opera as key, just that we have different opinions.

But I'm not arguing that you have to prefer the soap opera to everything. I think it's the glue that holds everything together, that is my opinion but I'm not arguing that that is right and what you think is wrong. What I'm aruging is that you are wrong if you want the soap opera aspect taking out of Spider-Man. Peter's life should never again be messed up because he is Spider-Man. If you took out the soap opera would it be the same book, would it be the same charcter? No he would be a different character.

You say you like Star Trek but prefer the morality rather than sci-fi. Ok, but would you then take the sci-fi out? I'm going to guess no because then it would be a different show and the characters would be different. I like the West Wing because of the characters and the exchanges between them, I not enamoured with the politics, but it wouldn't be the same show without nor would it be the same caharcters.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Have you read my posts outside this thread? If you have you realised that I have defended people whether or not I have agreed with them or not.

Sorry I don't stalk you, and I can't say you've said anything that's really stood out to me except this nonsense. Defend everything you want, it still doesn't justify calling someone wrong for having an opinion that's different from your own.

Yes but if you lose the darkness, then the motivations don't have the same impact because they don't seem realistic.

I would argue the "darkness" is a result of his motivations not the other way around.

But I'm not arguing that you have to prefer the soap opera to everything.

Then stop doing it.

I think it's the glue that holds everything together, that is my opinion but I'm not arguing that that is right and what you think is wrong. What I'm aruging is that you are wrong if you want the soap opera aspect taking out of Spider-Man. Peter's life should never again be messed up because he is Spider-Man. If you took out the soap opera would it be the same book, would it be the same charcter? No he would be a different character.

He's not the same character right now, forget the soap opera aspect his core motivation of responsibility has been lost. He's a different, stupider and weaker character right now than he's ever been. But as long as there's a love triangle you're cool with it, I; however, am not. That's how differing opinons work.

You say you like Star Trek but prefer the morality rather than sci-fi. Ok, but would you then take the sci-fi out? I'm going to guess no because then it would be a different show and the characters would be different. I like the West Wing because of the characters and the exchanges between them, I not enamoured with the politics, but it wouldn't be the same show without nor would it be the same caharcters.

No, I said I used to like star trek because of the excellent morality points. It still has the best explianation on the ridiculousness of racism ever made (the one with the people with split colored faces). I stopped caring when they went too far with the science and away from having a point. The best episodes in my opinion have little or nothing to do with the science other than as a means to get earthlings to interact with other beings.

But I'll go with you on that, star trek without the science. Change the show so instead of earthlings landing on other planets, the team is a group that deals with aliens landing on earth and interacting. Lose the holowhateverthehells and keep the meat of the story with the interactions. Actually I think that sounds better. Maybe then it wouldn't keep getting cancelled.

Never liked the west wing, I stopped going to church cause I don't like getting preached at by *******s, why would I want to do that with my free time? So I can't say I have much of an opinion on it.

What's fundamentally important to you isn't always fundamentally important to others. If you changed an aspect of course the story changes, that's what change means but that doesn't mean the aspect others cared about isn't there. I mean look you're reading ASM right now and to me, it's just sickening to see how far my favorite hero has fallen. Joey Q changed something fundamental to the character in my eyes and now it's unreadable, but you like the new direction. See how that works?