Western Martin Scorsese and Leonardo DiCaprio Eye Killers of the Flower Moon

[Eddie Dean]

Yeah, he’s only directed iconic and lived in performances from Ellen Burstyn, Lorraine Bracco, Sharon Stone, Margot Robbie...

What a shoddy track record.

 

[Persona]

Scorsese's track record on women and minorities in his films is... not great. So I'm definitely anxious to see who gets cast/how Mollie and the rest of the Osage figures get portrayed.

Marty directs what he knows: white dudes.

That said, it's not like good female or non-white roles are missing from his filmography. Michelle Pfeiffer, Ellen Burstyn, and Jodie Foster had great roles in Scorsese films and Marty did great work with the Tibetan and Japanese casts in Kundun and Silence (though obviously not technically minorities in those films' contexts). Also, love the Ving Rhames character in Bringing Out The Dead.

But, to be sure, when people think about Scorsese characters they usually think about white (and often Italian) dudes.

 

[Man in the Suit]

 

[weezerspider]

Scorsese's track record on women and minorities in his films is... not great. So I'm definitely anxious to see who gets cast/how Mollie and the rest of the Osage figures get portrayed.

He’s directed 10 Academy Award nominated female performances compared to 14 male ones. You guys love to talk out of your ass about Marty because he criticized your little spandex flicks.

 

[Albright]

wow, you seem to have issues... (btw Marty is my favourite director)

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yeah, he’s only directed iconic and lived in performances from Ellen Burstyn, Lorraine Bracco, Sharon Stone, Margot Robbie...

What a shoddy track record.

Scorsese's my favorite director, but there is a reason that you can argue he has more iconic and lived in performances by white men in just Goodfellas, the Departed, or Wolf of Wall Street, then women and people of color throughout his entire career. I don't know why anyone acts like this isn't obviously the case. How many lines did women have in the Irishman? Again, my favorite director but it's true. Look at the repetition of his casting of the same men. You don't see that with actresses, outside his mother in bit part roles.

 

[Eddie Dean]

No, I'm sorry, but every major film from Scorsese has at least one amazing performance from an actress. Cybil Shepard and Jodie Foster in Taxi Driver, Sandra Bernhard in King of Comedy, Cathy Moriarty in Raging Bull, Lorraine Bracco in Goodfellas, Sharon Stone in Casino, Juliet Lewis in Cape Fear, Cate Blanchett in The Aviator, Ellen Burstyn (and Jodie Foster!) in Alice, Pfeiffer and Ryder in Age of Innocence, Barbara Hersey in Last Temptation, Robbie in Wolf. His track record speaks for himself and his track record is head and shoulders above his other Movie Brat peers. He makes movies that are explorations and critiques of misogynic and toxic masculinity and how women fit into these words is a huge part of it. The Irishman is number one case in point. The lines critique is so disingenuous. Frank's greatest sin, far more than any of the murders he committed, more than the betrayal of his best friend, is how he treats his family and particularly Peggy. Her judgement of him is the one that carries the most weight in the film. This isn't some hidden or oblique part of the film, Scorsese clearly lays this out. We see how Hoffa treats Peggy, with love and warmth, in stark judgement with Frank who only shows coldness and violence toward Peggy but still demands forgiveness from her simply because she is his daughter. Paquin's amount of lines don't matter. She's the crux of the film.

Not to mention Scorsese is constantly boosting films by female, foreign and POC filmmakers. He's probably done more work to get Americans to see foreign films than anyone else. He's not the guy to go after for this.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Not to mention Scorsese is constantly boosting films by female, foreign and POC filmmakers. He's probably done more work to get Americans to see foreign films than anyone else. He's not the guy to go after for this.

I strongly disagree with your take on Peggy, but I won't derail the thread debating The Irishman. I don't mean to "go after" Scorsese. He's one of our greatest living directors and I certainly don't think he's any sort of misogynist. He just tells stories about one very specific type of person - angry straight white men - and his female & minority characters more often than not serve as props. Well-directed and acted props, but far from memorable roles for the most part.

It's possible a director and their work (and yes, Scorsese has done great things for the work of marginalized artists) but also acknowledge their blindspots when airing concerns about their upcoming films. And my main concern with 'Flower Moon' isn't even the women, but worrying about the native characters winding up background victims with Leo and DeNiro as the main attractions.

 

[Eddie Dean]

Sure, he only makes movies about angry straight white men if you ignore Alice Doesn’t Live Here Anymore, Age of Innocence, Kundun, Silence, Hugo, Boxcar Bertha...

 

[Persona]

He just tells stories about one very specific type of person - angry straight white men - and his female & minority characters more often than not serve as props. Well-directed and acted props, but far from memorable roles for the most part

The problem here is that in this thread this take has been pretty well refuted.

They say write what you know, so yes, a good number of his films tend to focus on white male characters. But look at the heat Sam Levinson is (rightly) taking for putting his words in black actors' mouths with Malcolm & Marie.

I think Scorsese has achieved a pretty good balance over the course of his career. Women and POC characters aren't just well-done props in the likes of Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore, Age of Innocence, Bringing out the Dead, Kundun, Silence, etc.

 

[Persona]

Love the Lily Gladstone casting in this movie, btw. Didn't even think of it but she's perfect for Mollie Burkhart.

Let me say that I do hope they find a way to beef up the role a little bit. She's very central to the opening section where the murders are happening but not as present during the FBI investigation section.

I figure there should be quite a lot of scenes focusing on hers and Ernest's (Leo) relationship throughout the movie.

Still got my fingers crossed for McConaughey as Tom White.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

I am seriously awestruck that Marty is being criticized for being too white and male by people whose favorite franchise didn’t have a non-white male until after its 18th film. 18.

 

[CaptainWagner]

I am seriously awestruck that Marty is being criticized for being too white and male by people whose favorite franchise didn’t have a non-white male until after its 18th film. 18.

I'm assuming this means the MCU. Which I can assure you is most certainly not my "favorite franchise." But if you've followed my posts on here, I've always pushed for more diversity in superhero films, and do currently continue to do so. Simply refer to any of my proposed cast lists. Like I said before, you can love someone's works but still recognize things that they fall short on, critique said shortcomings and encourage them to be improved on with future projects.

But look at the heat Sam Levinson is (rightly) taking for putting his words in black actors' mouths with Malcolm & Marie.

Has any actually relevant Black critic or industry professional actually spoken on this? (Honestly asking) Because the ones I follow have all been pretty positive about that movie.

 

[Prison Mike]

The problem here is that in this thread this take has been pretty well refuted.

They say write what you know, so yes, a good number of his films tend to focus on white male characters. But look at the heat Sam Levinson is (rightly) taking for putting his words in black actors' mouths with Malcolm & Marie.

I think Scorsese has achieved a pretty good balance over the course of his career. Women and POC characters aren't just well-done props in the likes of Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore, Age of Innocence, Bringing out the Dead, Kundun, Silence, etc.

I would rather that he write what he knows well than to attempt to write something for the sake of it and fumble with the execution.

 

[moviedoors]

The Irishman is number one case in point. The lines critique is so disingenuous. Frank's greatest sin, far more than any of the murders he committed, more than the betrayal of his best friend, is how he treats his family and particularly Peggy. Her judgement of him is the one that carries the most weight in the film. This isn't some hidden or oblique part of the film, Scorsese clearly lays this out. We see how Hoffa treats Peggy, with love and warmth, in stark judgement with Frank who only shows coldness and violence toward Peggy but still demands forgiveness from her simply because she is his daughter. Paquin's amount of lines don't matter. She's the crux of the film.

The whole "she doesn't even have any dialogue" critique of The Irishman drove me insane. It actually devalues the work Anna Paquin did in the film, as it plays off the notion that not having dialogue means she wasn't really acting, and acting beautifully at that. It reminds me of the people that don't get that great screenwriting is so much more than just writing dialogue. Oscars for writing almost always go to movies that are the most talky. Just like the loudest movies win sound awards (see: The Bourne Ultimatum beating No Country For Old Men, one of the most exquisitely sound designed and mixed movies EVER). And that's not to mention that her silence is the whole ****ing point. It communicates so much more than some show-off screaming and crying Oscars-clip would have. All Frank wants is for his daughter to acknowledge him, and she will not even give him the satisfaction of cursing him.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Marty himself has admitted to being on borrowed time and has been focusing on doing those passion projects. I personally don't care if I never see a black lead or female lead in one of his movies, you gotta write what you know. I would watch another dozen mob flicks from him, hell, any new film from him should be embraced and seen as an event at this point.

 

[Man in the Suit]

 

[DarkKnight88]

Plemons working with all the big names. And now twice for Scorsese (like Spielberg).

 

[Persona]

Awesome.

I was thinking McConaughey but Plemons could be even better as White.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Huh, so they didn't switch the focus to DiCaprio's part, so he's staying as a supporting character? I thought the script was rewritten to focus it on DiCaprio's new character now?

But if Plemons is the lead and DiCaprio and DeNiro are supporting that's very interesting.

 

[Persona]

There was a rewrite that DiCaprio pushed for when he decided he wanted to play Ernest Burkhart, yes.

Probably had the role beefed up but maybe not to the extent that he'd be considered the lead.

 

[DarkKnight88]

I love the fact that Plemons is the bigger star than either DiCaprio or DeNiro for this lol

 

[BaelaTargaryen]

 

[Persona]

Nice.

 

[Eddie Dean]

Look at all those white guys!