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Marvel and DC Villains

I think this is the big thing. Marvel has been making a ton of these films and really since the Nolan films, DC has made Man of Steel. Unless you want to go back and compare really bad DC villains like Nuclear Man, Richard Pryor, and Mr. Freeze.

Marvel is also at somewhat of a disadvantage in that some of the top villains in their stable are locked in with other studios. The biggest one from their studio they've dealt with has been Loki and he's a no. 1 favorite. Other top ones for me have been Stane, Ultron, and Winter Soldier. Thanos really hasn't done anything yet, so it's premature to judge him.

Also it's worth pointing out that Marvel has made their fortune on casting likable leads as charming heroes that we want to go on a journey with. Every movie has, for better or worse, been about the heroes and making us fall in love with our leads. Sometimes this does come at the expense of the villains, but it works for me because more often than not I'd much rather spend time watching Stark tinker in his garage for twenty minutes or see Captain America adjusting to the new world than anything else.
 
Ock was handled by Sony though not Marvel. But if we're talking Marvel based movies I'd say Magneto is the most fleshed out villain.

Yeah probably so. But Magneto has had 5 going on 6 movies to be fleshed out.

The 2-3 hour format of a movie handicaps the storytelling of a villain. He or she can only have as much screen time as is necessary for the centerpiece of the film, the hero, to have a dire situation that must be overcome. In just about every Marvel and DC movie, the villain is treated as disposable at the end, even if he/she didn't die. Loki and Magneto are the exceptions and Magneto has rightly been featured as an essential piece that galvanizes all of the characters in the X-men universe. He hasn't suffered from the "beat the bad guy and move on" formula in comic book films.

After seeing how Kingpin and Reverse Flash were handled this year, I've come to the conclusion that TV is a better format for villains. They can take long periods of time for development without fear of the hero being upstaged.



I'd say Malekith is their biggest trip up when it comes to a villain. He's not embarrassingly bad but he was disappointingly sidelined.

Mandarin was worse, unless Marvel Studios actually follows up on "All Hail the King". Taking one of Iron Man's most notable foes and turning him into a vapid plot device is baffling.
 
Mandarin was worse, unless Marvel Studios actually follows up on "All Hail the King". Taking one of Iron Man's most notable foes and turning him into a vapid plot device is baffling.

As far as I can tell, Mandarin has never shown up yet. He's only been felt on the fringes with that one shot and the tie in stuff from the first 2 movies. I've got no problem with that. He was never my favorite Iron Man villain anyway. I like Ghost and Madame Masque far more.
 
As far as I can tell, Mandarin has never shown up yet. He's only been felt on the fringes with that one shot and the tie in stuff from the first 2 movies. I've got no problem with that. He was never my favorite Iron Man villain anyway. I like Ghost and Madame Masque far more.

That's fine, but I'm sure there are people who prize the Mandarin as their favorite villain. For that matter, I'm sure somewhere out there exist some people who identify Mandarin as their absolute favorite comic book character. Those fans deserve to see their character adapted with reverence.

I've read/heard enough of a reaction to IM3's depiction to know that some people feel like it was more than just a misfire. It was a slap in the face to some hardcore Iron Man fans.
 
I'd say Malekith is their biggest trip up when it comes to a villain. He's not embarrassingly bad but he was disappointingly sidelined.


Whiplash/Crimson Dynamo ? The Mandarin ? The Abomination ( from INcredible Hulk) ?

The entire cast of Elektra ? The demons from Ghost Rider ?

Malekith was disappointing, but those guys were crap !

Marvel has made some great films in the last couple of years, but not everything they touch turns to gold - just ask Ang Lee's Hulk.

And that's not even getting into Dr Doom ? (okay,yes that's Sony, but if we go there we've also got Sandman, Venom, Electro and Green Goblin - the Dane Dehaan version)

Just saying I think there might be a few villains out there in Marvel films who make Malekith not look so bad. Cheers.
 
Whiplash/Crimson Dynamo ? The Mandarin ? The Abomination ( from INcredible Hulk) ?

Abomination and Whiplash were pretty damn awesome, IMO. We have yet to see the actual Mandarin but IMO the twist with the Faux Mandarin was pretty damn clever and something that will not be soon forgotten.

The entire cast of Elektra ? The demons from Ghost Rider ?

Malekith was disappointing, but those guys were crap !

Marvel has made some great films in the last couple of years, but not everything they touch turns to gold - just ask Ang Lee's Hulk.

And that's not even getting into Dr Doom ? (okay,yes that's Sony, but if we go there we've also got Sandman, Venom, Electro and Green Goblin - the Dane Dehaan version)

Just saying I think there might be a few villains out there in Marvel films who make Malekith not look so bad. Cheers.

Well, I was only referring to MCU villains. You start bring up Elektra amd Ghost Rider and AngHulk :barf: and of course they all suck. Those were god awful movies and their villains reflected that. But those were made by FOX, Sony & Universal. IMO there are lots of poorly done villains in non-MCU Marvel films, most of them are that way in fact. It's just that among MCU villains I'd say Malekith got shafted more than any of the others. Whiplash & Abomination still got to have some great scenes. Malekith was relegated to speaking in a foreign language for most of the movie and it's hard to have a great scene with some memorable dialog when you're doing that. His end fight with Thor was cool but that was about it. Another reason was that he had to share villainy space with Kurse(who's barely a character at all).
 
Whiplash/Crimson Dynamo ? The Mandarin ? The Abomination ( from INcredible Hulk) ?

The entire cast of Elektra ? The demons from Ghost Rider ?

Malekith was disappointing, but those guys were crap !

Marvel has made some great films in the last couple of years, but not everything they touch turns to gold - just ask Ang Lee's Hulk.

And that's not even getting into Dr Doom ? (okay,yes that's Sony, but if we go there we've also got Sandman, Venom, Electro and Green Goblin - the Dane Dehaan version)

Just saying I think there might be a few villains out there in Marvel films who make Malekith not look so bad. Cheers.

Two points:

1) Some of the villains you name here are non-MCU Marvel movie villains, ones adapted by other studios. They tend to have a lot more problems in their portrayals than the villains adapted by Marvel Studios, the exceptions being Magneto, Doc Ock, Mystique, and Willem Dafoe's Green Goblin.

2) Malekith came across as a weaker character than most other MCU villains, in my opinion, because he didn't have many interesting scenes or memorable lines. Even MCU villains who didn't get stellar portrayals, such as Abomination and Whiplash/Crimson Dynamo, still had some awesome scenes and dialogue. And whatever you think of the plot twist with the Mandarin, he was never boring, and Ben Kingsley really brought his A-game in making the character memorable. I personally loved his scenes in IM3.
 
Abomination and Whiplash were pretty damn awesome, IMO. We have yet to see the actual Mandarin but IMO the twist with the Faux Mandarin was pretty damn clever and something that will not be soon forgotten.



Well, I was only referring to MCU villains. You start bring up Elektra amd Ghost Rider and AngHulk :barf: and of course they all suck. Those were god awful movies and their villains reflected that. But those were made by FOX, Sony & Universal. IMO there are lots of poorly done villains in non-MCU Marvel films, most of them are that way in fact. It's just that among MCU villains I'd say Malekith got shafted more than any of the others. Whiplash & Abomination still got to have some great scenes. Malekith was relegated to speaking in a foreign language for most of the movie and it's hard to have a great scene with some memorable dialog when you're doing that. His end fight with Thor was cool but that was about it. Another reason was that he had to share villainy space with Kurse(who's barely a character at all).

I totally agree that it was a huge mistake having Malekith speak Elvish, that really robbed him of some potentially great lines - Chris Eccleston is a terrific actor, he was freakin' Dr Who for God's sake, but he really didn't get a good go in TDW. I know that in LOTR Peter Jackson manages to have the Elves speak their own language and sound cool - but that didn't really work here - it just sounded silly.

On the other hand I felt Kurse, post-transformation was a pretty legit villain, sort of a Dark-Elf Terminator. Yes, he was an evil henchman, but he did it well. He's menacing and clearly a serious threat to Thor and co, and comes across that way without a single word of dialogue. So I didn't have any problems with Kurse.

Did you really like Whiplash ? I mean I respect your opinion, but wow I found Mickey Rourke pretty hard to stomach in that role - but that's just me.
As for Abomination, as Emil Blonsky (Tim Roth) he was pretty good -but that's Tim Roth for you. I didn't find the post-gamma infusion version of him either scary or particularly interesting, he was just a slightly bigger Hulk with some bones sticking out.

Personally I couldn't call anything that either of them did "awesome" in those films, maybe 'average' at best. So, agree to disagree on that one.


But back to your original point, I do agree that Malektih had a lot of potential as a character, and was portrayed as a solid actor, but didn't really make a particularly memorable villain (sadly, I think we could say the same about Ultron).

And whatever you think of the plot twist with the Mandarin, he was never boring, and Ben Kingsley really brought his A-game in making the character memorable. I personally loved his scenes in IM3.

As for the Mandarin. Yes Ben Kingsley was great, but then it's hard to find a film where Ben Kingsley is **** - he's been in **** films, but he's pretty much always awesome, I don't think he has a B game or a C game.
However, I didn't like the interpretation of the character - I think there are some characters for whom a twist like that would have worked, but the Mandarin wasn't one of them.

That's just my opinion of course, and I know that opinions are divided on the decision to portray the character that way. Some loved it, others did not.
 
This thread seems to be in retaliation a little bit to Ayer's comments. Well keep in mind that David Ayer is selling a movie--a movie ONLY about comic book villains no less--and he is never the most subtle or diplomatic personality to begin with. With that said I agree with him to a point.

BATMAN has the best rogues gallery in comics bar none. Besides featuring the Joker, who I think it would be hard for anyone to argue is not the greatest comic book villain of all time and thanks to Heath Ledger and Christopher Nolan he's also one of cinema's titans too, Batty's villains are also just amazingly varied, complex, and warped, which brings out the best (or most devious and cruel) in writers. But on that note, notice that the only Batman villain from the comics who's in the Suicide Squad that Ayer is using is Deadshot. Otherwise, he is stuffing it with Batman villains not generally associated with Suicide Squad thanks to Joker, Harley Quinn, and Killer Croc.

But after Batman, I would think that there's a strong case that Spider-Man and X-Men have the next best rogues' galleries. Even though each's film franchise(s) has had varying success at adapting them. But Singer and Vaughn did an amazing job with Magneto, who I think is among comics' best villains, and a solid job with the Sentinels (we'll see about Apocalypse next May), while Sony has really only nailed Doc Ock for me. The "Goblin Legacy" and Norman Osborn's psyche was very well done by Raimi, Dafoe, and Franco, but it also felt a bit neutered by costume choices and a lack of Gwen Stacy. Still, the less said about how Sony mishandled Venom, the Lizard, Electro, Rhino, and the Green Goblin with Dane DeHaan, the better.

Beyond X-Men and Spidey, Marvel's best villain in my mind is Doctor Doom. But he is also at Fox (for all the good it's done the studio). So, in the end Marvel has a much weaker library of rogues to pull from for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (at least until 2017). HOWEVER, if one ignores the Batman villains, which most DCCU films will have to do, I do not think the MCU is at that great of a disadvantage when compared to DC. So, in the end, it is all about execution. General Zod was a pretty disposable villain in Superman comics until Terrence Stamp came along in 1980. Mystique has been elevated to A-status as an anti-hero thanks to the X-Men movies. And Bane was largely considered a joke prior to The Dark Knight Rises in modern comics and media (forget Schumacher, did anybody see the laughing stock he was made to be in the Arkham games?!).

So, it is still largely about execution. The MCU may lack most of Marvel Comics' heavy hitters, but it is their own fault that they have failed to compensate in any meaningful way. The reason people like Loki is because Tom Hiddleston is charismatic and Joss Whedon gave him great dialogue with a small dash of pathos. He was forgettable in Thor and is still not very threatening. He is enjoyed for being laughable and a wee bit pathetic. Every other single MCU villain has been a total wash. And while I think Man of Steel is worse than most of the MCU films, Michael Shannon's Zod left more of an impression in one film than the entire MCU rogue gallery combined.

This is not because DC has better villains. It is because Marvel is so afraid of upping the stakes into anything dramatic that their villains are more neutered than Sam Raimi at his most handcuffed. Excluding Batman, Marvel and DC are fairly equally matched. For whatever reason, Marvel Studios refuses to build up its villains. Harvey Dent was only Two-Face for 20-30 minutes of The Dark Knight. But he was a better villain than Marvel Studios has ever produced.
 
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For me Ultron was the chance for Marvel to make a really good villain from scratch and make something truly memorable and terrifying. But for me they dropped the ball big time, he was so disappointing and managed to lose every battle he had in the movie.
 
But on that note, notice that the only Batman villain from the comics who's in the Suicide Squad that Ayer is using is Deadshot. Otherwise, he is stuffing it with Batman villains not generally associated with Suicide Squad thanks to Joker, Harley Quinn, and Killer Croc.

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The suicide squad lineup is nearly identical to that used in the DCAU film Arkham Asylum which came out a while back.
 
The suicide squad lineup is nearly identical to that used in the DCAU film Arkham Asylum which came out a while back.

Not really...
Assault on Arkham:
Harley Quinn
Deadshot
Captain Boomerang
Killer Frost
King Shark
Black Spider
KGBeast kinda

Suicide Squad:
Harley Quinn
Deadshot
Captain Boomerang
Enchantress
Katana
Rick Flagg
Killer Croc
Slipknot
El Diablo

Apart from 3, 2 staples and one who's been a part since New 52 launched, there's no overlap.
 

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