The Villains Problem

[Flint Marko]

As lame as it is that the first JL movie will feature them fighting Steppenwolf, the film makers will have to make him a credible threat so we buy the fact that only the combined power of the JL can defeat him. In that regard he might end up being a contender for best villain of 2017, if and only if they can make him more interesting than the Vulture.

 

[TeeKay]

Steppenwolf looks like Ares.

 

[Erzengel]

As lame as it is that the first JL movie will feature them fighting Steppenwolf, the film makers will have to make him a credible threat so we buy the fact that only the combined power of the JL can defeat him. In that regard he might end up being a contender for best villain of 2017, if and only if they can make him more interesting than the Vulture.

And here's my issue, if only the combined efforts of the JL can vanquish Steppenwolf, then how do you elevate that with Darkseid?

 

[Warhammer]

And here's my issue, if only the combined efforts of the JL can vanquish Steppenwolf, then how do you elevate that with Darkseid?

It will always peeve me that out of all the great rogues in the DC Universe, we finally get a Justice League film and the main villain is Steppenwolf.

 

[Flint Marko]

It will always peeve me that out of all the great rogues in the DC Universe, we finally get a Justice League film and the main villain is Steppenwolf.

Call me crazy but I don't see that JL sequel with Darkseid coming out any time soon. I think JL will perform similarly to BvS, they'll go back to the drawing board and focus on the solo movies, and then we'll hear news about the sequel that may or may not have Darkseid. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, I just don't see it at the moment.

 

[Erzengel]

Honest question, with Avengers and AOU at around 1.5B and 1.4B respectively and ignoring BvS, would a JL at 900M to $1B be considered a success?

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

That's not bathos. Bathos is intentional.

I still like that the God of War actually looks like the face of a man who causes war and benefits from it. I would have foregone the armor and traditional battle altogether and it would have worked better.

I apologize if it was explained and I just missed it (I've only seen the film once), but I'm not even sure why Ares is fighting in the first place. I get why he reveals himself, because he wants Diana to join with him, but after she refuses there is no reason for him to stick around. He has nothing to do with this whole plot other than a little push in terms of generating ideas. Like he himself said, the war is something the human did themselves and they would continue to do so even without him (and of course, historically, we know that World War II was even worse and the Russian Civil War had already started). To me it seems he has no reason and is even out of character from what is presented in the film for him to stick around and fight, other than it was the end of the movie and Hollywood Law says there must be a big fight scene with the villain at the end.

 

[StormC]

Honest question, with Avengers and AOU at around 1.5B and 1.4B respectively and ignoring BvS, would a JL at 900M to $1B be considered a success?

Yes. Not a breakout success like the Avengers movies (AOU was dampened by a lower domestic box office as well), but a nice solid billion will still be a great outcome for JL, especially after the damage BVS did to the brand.

 

[Mjölnir]

That's not bathos. Bathos is intentional.

I still like that the God of War actually looks like the face of a man who causes war and benefits from it. I would have foregone the armor and traditional battle altogether and it would have worked better.

No, bathos is by no means restricted to intent. In fact the original meaning of the modern term was about poetry that failed in trying to be sublime and the poor quality instead caused unintentional comedy. It's been bastardized since, like the use in that video, but sources like the Oxford Dictionary only refer to the unintentional use so I wouldn't go around using it like the video maker did.

 

[Erzengel]

Yes. Not a breakout success like the Avengers movies (AOU was dampened by a lower domestic box office as well), but a nice solid billion will still be a great outcome for JL, especially after the damage BVS did to the brand.

And if we ignore BvS and say JL was the start of the DCEU, would it still be a success?

 

[StormC]

And if we ignore BvS and say JL was the start of the DCEU, would it still be a success?

You mean if none of the other movies existed and JL was the first ever DCEU movie? I dunno, that'd be a very different ball game. But I think the difference between a billion and a billion and a half is just "success" and "huge success."

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I think given how poor the reaction to BvS was, that I would consider $1 billion a success for sure. Is it what I would have expected coming off the Avengers and the Nolan Trilogy? No. But at this point they need some positive momentum and that would certainly be in the right direction. What can't happen is that they piss all the good will from Wonder Woman away with another lousy film and a gross that fails to even match BvS.

 

[Erzengel]

My thinking is pre 2008 or even pre 2012, if you asked me who was more popular I'd would have said Justice League and would have been shocked if an Avengers movie made at least 50% more than a JL one.

 

[StormC]

The difference is that Marvel spent four years building up their brand and getting general audiences used to the Avengers. They couldn't just drop the movie and expect a huge success. A JL movie to start with already would have Superman and Batman, and the other DC heroes that while not as popular are still very recognizable.

In that sense, the Avengers is the much bigger success story. Marvel had to assemble their B-list characters and sell them to the general public, and now they're some of the most popular fictional characters ever.

 

[Flint Marko]

Edit: thought this was the Cinematic CW thread. This discussion is probably more appropriate over there.

 

[Tony Stark]

I think I'm one of the few people that didn't particularly care for Ego. I thought Russell overacted for most of his screen time, was campy at times and Ego's story just wasn't interesting to me. He never felt menacing or threatening to me, even though his powers were obviously very strong.

I thought Ronan was much better, but as I've said around the boards, my preferences for villains are different than most. I like the mean SOB, intimidating villains better. Ronan was mean and intimidating all the way up to the dance off, where the character fell apart. But he took out Drax with ease (though after seeing GotG2, Drax hasn't been as powerful in these 2 movies as his name says he supposed to be "The Destroyer"), took a blast from Rocket's canon and laughed it off, and was just nasty and unrelenting throughout the movie.

Definitely agree with the majority in the thread though that this is not an MCU problem. All studios have had at least 1 good villain, couple other solid ones and a bunch of duds. The DCEU has been almost entirely duds so far, though I thought Zod was very good, one of the better villains in a CBM.

He's not supposed to feel menacing. He's supposed to feel like Peter's long lost dad, which is what makes that scene so perfect when Peter gets to play energy ball catch with his dad. It's only at the point that he reveals he put the tumor in Peter's mom and see those mountains of skeletons, of Peter's "brothers and sisters" that the guy doesn't care for Peter at all.

 

[StormC]

I found Ego effective because of how they set him up in the first scene, driving with Peter's mom happily and listening to pop music. It was very innocuous and Russell sold himself well as the distant-but-trying father figure until the big reveal. I felt as betrayed as Peter did.

 

[DOBSON10]

He's not supposed to feel menacing. He's supposed to feel like Peter's long lost dad, which is what makes that scene so perfect when Peter gets to play energy ball catch with his dad. It's only at the point that he reveals he put the tumor in Peter's mom and see those mountains of skeletons, of Peter's "brothers and sisters" that the guy doesn't care for Peter at all.

I understood all of that, it just didn't work for me. As for menacing, I meant after the reveal, obviously.

 

[Timebomb]

I found Ego effective because of how they set him up in the first scene, driving with Peter's mom happily and listening to pop music. It was very innocuous and Russell sold himself well as the distant-but-trying father figure until the big reveal. I felt as betrayed as Peter did.

The reveal was gut wrenching. It's why Ego is one of the best villains this year. That is some evil stuff right there. And since he is so god like, he said it so non-chalan. Creepy

 

[John Locke]

And here's my issue, if only the combined efforts of the JL can vanquish Steppenwolf, then how do you elevate that with Darkseid?

By adding GL(s) and others.

 

[DACrowe]

I apologize if it was explained and I just missed it (I've only seen the film once), but I'm not even sure why Ares is fighting in the first place. I get why he reveals himself, because he wants Diana to join with him, but after she refuses there is no reason for him to stick around. He has nothing to do with this whole plot other than a little push in terms of generating ideas. Like he himself said, the war is something the human did themselves and they would continue to do so even without him (and of course, historically, we know that World War II was even worse and the Russian Civil War had already started). To me it seems he has no reason and is even out of character from what is presented in the film for him to stick around and fight, other than it was the end of the movie and Hollywood Law says there must be a big fight scene with the villain at the end.

Well WWI was pretty awful. In fact, in terms of trench warfare, the day-to-day of it might've been worse. But when you factor in the Holocaust and nuclear...

This is getting into a weird conversation, anyway back to the important stuff of talking about superhero movies...

I think he wanted Diana to join him, obviously, and when she didn't she was a threat. While he did not think humans would succeed at stopping the war, she did have the power to kill him and he wanted to put her on ice before she could. It is all very basic and not very inspiring writing.

I actually quite like Ares up until he starts putting on armor and blowing up crap. His speech to Diana is pretty intriguing and could have been developed more as his primary personality trait. More insidious schemer, like war planners themselves, as opposed to a brute soldier ready to fight.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Well WWI was pretty awful. In fact, in terms of trench warfare, the day-to-day of it might've been worse. But when you factor in the Holocaust and nuclear...

This is getting into a weird conversation, anyway back to the important stuff of talking about superhero movies...

I didn't mean to underplay the awfulness of WW1 by any means. If it came off as that, I apologize.

I think he wanted Diana to join him, obviously, and when she didn't she was a threat. While he did not think humans would succeed at stopping the war, she did have the power to kill him and he wanted to put her on ice before she could. It is all very basic and not very inspiring writing.

I actually quite like Ares up until he starts putting on armor and blowing up crap. His speech to Diana is pretty intriguing and could have been developed more as his primary personality trait. More insidious schemer, like war planners themselves, as opposed to a brute soldier ready to fight.

Yeah, I liked the speech. It is everything after that I have an issue with. When it happens, I'm thinking this could be an interesting approach to the character and then like you say he just puts on his armor and blowing stuff up like any other generic baddie.

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

That's not bathos. Bathos is intentional.

ba·thos

an effect of anticlimax created by an unintentional lapse in mood from the sublime to the trivial or ridiculous.

 

[Grommers]

And here's my issue, if only the combined efforts of the JL can vanquish Steppenwolf, then how do you elevate that with Darkseid?

I think you're self is under the pre-tense that the DCEU has to be limited to be written in similar vain to how the MCU is currently writing their villains. (with the exception currently being TWS, CW)

Yes you need a "final act" where they must overcome the villain, but it doesn't have to be the center part of the story like the MCU has currently set-up. Some of the JL stories e.g. JL: Doom, the JL in general dominated their "villainous" counter-parts, but the lead up was amazing.

TDK things were driven by the Joker, and defeated him relatively calmly, but it was the battle for Gotham's soul was the real battle that was being had with our Titular hero.

Provided they do Dark Seid much more like his Pre-52 counter-part where he speaks, and we don't get how he appeared in JL:War[the animated film], they can separate the two very distinctively.

I think the idea that the biggest villain that our heroes always have to face is world ending, (including the justice league) will be a complete misstep for these characters, I think some of my favourite JL stories are one's where they have to question their own internal motives, what being the JL actually means, and where they stand, after re-watching some of the JL cartoon on the weekend, the episodes that stand out to mind the way Waller calls out the JL for having a giant weapon in space hovering over everyone's head, and the pig-headedness of the JL thinking that's okay, and batman the only one after stopping waller, saying she is right.

 

[Flint Marko]

I think you're self is under the pre-tense that the DCEU has to be limited to be written in similar vain to how the MCU is currently writing their villains. (with the exception currently being TWS, CW)

Yes you need a "final act" where they must overcome the villain, but it doesn't have to be the center part of the story like the MCU has currently set-up.

But you realize that's basically how every DCEU film thus far has been, right?

I understand and agree with your assessment about how a lot of great stories don't revolve around big third act fight scenes, but a team movie sort of demands that kind of spectacle.