Marvel and DC.

[Mladen]

I said I hate indie snobs, not indie books.

fair enough. you probably know the type of people I was adressing that to anyway.

 

[fifthfiend]

Yeah, because returning Batman to the way he was in the 1970s (which arguably didn't even happen) was just done by tweaking who the character was a little bit. Not by sacrificing the last twenty years of continuity to some s**tf**k demon.

For the comparison to work you'd have to have Tim Drake and Jason Todd suddenly forget that they had ever been Robin, and then Dick Grayson as a grown-ass nearly-30-year-old man running around in those short-shorts he used to wear.

 

[Themanofbat]

Agreed.

To the people speaking of Vertigo, I have a question for you. Has anyone read a BAD series from vertigo?

Because so far, I haven't. Fables (one of my top three best comic series ever made) Jack of Fables, Preacher, Transmetropolitan, Garth Ennis's War Stories, Y the last Man (although the it's weak in my opinion, BKV has done much better things).

So really... have they put out anything bad? I haven't found it yet.

I've been reading Vertigo books since day one, and truth be told, while they have put out some fantastic series, they have also put out some stinkers.

I could make a list if you'd like...

 

[film_geek]

I've been reading Vertigo books since day one, and truth be told, while they have put out some fantastic series, they have also put out some stinkers.

I could make a list if you'd like...

If you could list some of the top worst ones, so I don't accidentally pick one up in trade. I'd like ot keep my winning streak with Vertigo if I can.

 

[trustyside-kick]

I can't read the big two any more. I still have Runaways on my Pull list, but once Whedon has left that so shall I. besides that, I'll pick up the occasional trade of Batman, and some of the ultimate universe. Oh, and Punisher Max till Ennis leaves.

This isn't really directed at you...but why do people drop certain titles just because a change in the team working on it? If you are a fan of the title, you should stick with it. It annoys me and sounds real dumb when I hear people constantly saying that kind of stuff.

 

[DoomRulz]

This isn't really directed at you...but why do people drop certain titles just because a change in the team working on it? If you are a fan of the title, you should stick with it. It annoys me and sounds real dumb when I hear people constantly saying that kind of stuff.

More often than not, when a new team takes over, a book loses w/e there was about it in the first place that made it great.

Did you ever read Ghost Rider Vol. 2? At first it was superb, but when Howard Mackie left the book, and the artists kept switching in and out, the book fell out of favour.

 

[Harlekin]

This isn't really directed at you...but why do people drop certain titles just because a change in the team working on it? If you are a fan of the title, you should stick with it. It annoys me and sounds real dumb when I hear people constantly saying that kind of stuff.

Sometimes they're not so much a fan of the title as they are fan of the creative team.

 

[Themanofbat]

Sometimes they're not so much a fan of the title as they are fan of the creative team.

People should buy books based on characters and content and NOT by whoever the creators are...

The fact that people actually do that simply stuns me...

 

[fifthfiend]

People should buy books based on characters and content and NOT by whoever the creators are...

The fact that people actually do that simply stuns me...

Are you joking or do you actually mean this?

If you're actually serious I can only say that characters and content vary in quality based on the ability of the creative team producing stories about them. People follow creative teams because they find that a given character is more entertaining as depicted by that team than by other artists and writers.

I mean, this really can't be that big of a revelation.

 

[trustyside-kick]

It's not a big revelation, but I still find it dumb. I'm an Aquaman fan, I'll follow him no matter the writer. But let's get into the specifics, since Aquaman hasn't had a team last so long really since PAD.

Just because I in particular love Brubaker's Daredevil over in Marvel, for example, doesn't mean I'm going to only read his DD stuff and drop it whenever he is finished, or only follow his work. Why? Because I like DD. If a new creative team comes on board, that's just a new perspective and idea for me to experience as the reader.

 

[Themanofbat]

Are you joking or do you actually mean this?

If you're actually serious I can only say that characters and content vary in quality based on the ability of the creative team producing stories about them. People follow creative teams because they find that a given character is more entertaining as depicted by that team than by other artists and writers.

I mean, this really can't be that big of a revelation.

I remember back in 1978, when all the "cool" kids at the comic store would laugh at all the kids who didn't buy Miller's DareDevil, and then mock them because they would buy Captain America or Hulk comics... even though the "non-cool" kids really liked the Hulk and/or Captain America.

I said to myself at that time (at the tender age of 11 years old) that I would only buy comics of characters that I liked... because that's what it's all about. I couldn't care less if Alan Moore would write a Wonder Woman comic... I've never liked the character, and I could care less what terrific storyline he would concieve... I don't like Wonder Woman. But you KNOW that fanboys all over would buy the book because they's want to read it, and then drop it whenever he'd stop... and I fail to understand why a person can enjoy a comic book character so much, and then simply stop when a new writer hops on board... it's like they never cared about that character at all... they just wanted to see what neat cool things that a highly rated writer can do... If that's the case, I wish these top notch writers would just create new characters...

So no, I wasn't joking and I still stand by my initial statement.

F^&%#43ck the alledged "cool kid" comic book readers and their oh so better taste in reading material...



;csad:

 

[trustyside-kick]

Exactly, I like the character. The writer is only a plus if it is an A-list or fan favorite.

 

[fifthfiend]

I couldn't care less if Alan Moore would write a Wonder Woman comic... I've never liked the character, and I could care less what terrific storyline he would concieve... I don't like Wonder Woman. But you KNOW that fanboys all over would buy the book because they's want to read it, and then drop it whenever he'd stop...

You know there's a lot of people who would use the word "fanboy" to describe a person who buys anything involving a given character no matter how godawfully ****ty it is out of slavish devotion to a figment of someone's imagination.

I mean I wouldn't, but that's because I don't call people fanboys, because I don't believe in using slurs to denigrate anybody who disagrees with me. But somebody else who does do that sort of thing certainly might.

it's like they never cared about that character at all... they just wanted to see what neat cool things that a highly rated writer can do...

Or maybe they care about that character when that character is written by somebody who is, you know, good at writing that character. And not when that character is written by someone who doesn't do a good job writing that character.

Again, I don't see what part of that is so incomprehensible.

even though the "non-cool" kids really liked the Hulk and/or Captain America.

I'm just throwing this out there, but did you consider that the comics those non-cool kids liked also had writers of their own, who probably had something to do with said kids liking those comics?

 

[Elijya]

People should buy books based on characters and content and NOT by whoever the creators are...

The fact that people actually do that simply stuns me...

As you so aptly criticized me for last week. I find it stunning when people continue to hand over money for titles that have crappy stories but have characters they're addicted to and openly admit they hate it, but they can't give it up. You've spoken on this subject before, and I believe you've said something along the lines that loyalty is important for you. Ok, that's fine, that's what works for you, I just don't personally see any reward in loyalty to specific characters. I have a loyalty to comics as a whole, and that's worked out pretty well for me.

I tend to follow creative teams TO books, because a creator is responsible for the quality of the title more so than the characters. I'm not sure I've ever dropped a book BECAUSE a bad creator was coming on board, though. I always give a title a few issues with a new team to make sure. I like Runaways alot, so I'll probably read that for a good long while regardless of who they put on it, but if the quality meter drops below a certain level, why wouldn't I drop it? It doesn't matter how much I like ANY character or any creator, I really don't feel like handing money over for crap I'm not enjoying. That doesn't seem very stunning to me.

And buying through either pattern doesn't make anyone "cool" or "uncool". Buy what you enjoy, I don't care. But when you openly admit that you love a character but hate a story, that just sounds like masochism to me. Or blind cult-like loyalty. Hell, to the majority of people, reading comics period is dorky, it doesn't matter if you read Daredevil or Captain America, regardless of who's working on them. I don't care if reading anything makes me cool or uncool, I care about enjoying what I read.

Back when I paid no attention to creators I wouldn't give it a second thought and would just keep buying the title one way or another. With alot of X-Books this caused me to buy alot of really crappy stories I now regret ever having paid for, but at the time I didn't know any better.

 

[Themanofbat]

You know there's a lot of people who would use the word "fanboy" to describe a person who buys anything involving a given character no matter how godawfully ****ty it is out of slavish devotion to a figment of someone's imagination.

I mean I wouldn't, but that's because I don't call people fanboys, because I don't believe in using slurs to denigrate anybody who disagrees with me. But somebody else who does do that sort of thing certainly might.

I am a fanboy... we're all fanboys (or fangirls... )... I could have used any term meaning "rabid comic book fan" in its place... no offense was meant. You're making too much out of nothing here.

Or maybe they care about that character when that character is written by somebody who is, you know, good at writing that character. And not when that character is written by someone who doesn't do a good job writing that character.

Again, I don't see what part of that is so incomprehensible.

When you care about certain characters... let's say the Fantastic Four, then you care about what happens to them regardless of who writes them. If you've followed the FF since issue #1, would you have dropped the book the moment Stan left? Of course not. Like any character, they're going to get their share of good/bad writers over the years, and hopefully more good ones than bad ones. But creative teams come and go, and if you cared about a character when hot creator X was writing the book, why drop it if some unkown creator Z comes on board... I'm not accusing you of doing this, but I know too many comic book readers that do, and I just can't understand it... if you're going to drop a book becasue hot creator X is leaving, then "hot creator X" didn't do a good enough job to make you care about the character to see where things go after the fact.

I'm just throwing this out there, but did you consider that the comics those non-cool kids liked also had writers of their own, who probably had something to do with said kids liking those comics?

It didn't matter at the time, because the writers of Cap and the Hulk in 1978 were Roy Thomas and a then very young & unknown Roger Stern... I'm sure the comics were good, because these kids (myself included) liked these characters, but we were made fun of by the "cool kids" because we were buying crappy comics and not "hot" comics like Frank Miller's DareDevil, and Perez/Wolfman's Teen Titans, or Byrne's Fantastic Four, or Uncanny X-Men or DC's Omega Men.

These were the hot comics of the day, and if you happened to buy comics like Marvel Team-Up, Marvel Two-In-One, the Hulk, Captain America or Micronauts... you were asking to be laughed at and to be told that you had bad tastes in comics... I was there, those things were said to me... imagine..."cool comic nerds making fun of geeky comic nerds"...

 

[Themanofbat]

As you so aptly criticized me for last week. I find it stunning when people continue to hand over money for titles that have crappy stories but have characters they're addicted to and openly admit they hate it, but they can't give it up.

I poke fun at you because it's funny... t:

You've spoken on this subject before, and I believe you've said something along the lines that loyalty is important for you. Ok, that's fine, that's what works for you, I just don't personally see any reward in loyalty to specific characters. I have a loyalty to comics as a whole, and that's worked out pretty well for me.

If you know that characters will have good/bad creators, then the loyalty can be justified, because bad creative A will eventually be replaced, so you can conitnue following their adventures (because continuity of such characters is important to me, and knowing the stuff that happens is equally important).

But having said that, I can only take so many bad creators one after the other... otherwise, I'd still be getting 80 to 100 titles per month. I've dropped stuff over the years when I've felt like I've had enough of bad storytelling, but it takes a while for me to make that decision, because as you well know, a good team may just be around the corner.

I tend to follow creative teams TO books, because a creator is responsible for the quality of the title more so than the characters. I'm not sure I've ever dropped a book BECAUSE a bad creator was coming on board, though. I always give a title a few issues with a new team to make sure. I like Runaways alot, so I'll probably read that for a good long while regardless of who they put on it, but if the quality meter drops below a certain level, why wouldn't I drop it? It doesn't matter how much I like ANY character or any creator, I really don't feel like handing money over for crap I'm not enjoying. That doesn't seem very stunning to me.

See? You're an exception to what I was talking about... as you've mentioned to me before in the past about this very same topic, at least you've kept on reading books AFTER hot creator X has left the book, which is great. That means that hot creator X did his/her job and made you care about the character. But I'm talking about the people that just follow whatever hot creator X writes and leaves when they're gone.

And buying through either pattern doesn't make anyone "cool" or "uncool". Buy what you enjoy, I don't care. But when you openly admit that you love a character but hate a story, that just sounds like masochism to me. Or blind cult-like loyalty. Hell, to the majority of people, reading comics period is dorky, it doesn't matter if you read Daredevil or Captain America, regardless of who's working on them. I don't care if reading anything makes me cool or uncool, I care about enjoying what I read.

Of course it doesn't... anybody knows that.

But for an 11 year old in 1978, it was hard to be called a dork by the DareDevil reading kids because I was reading the Hulk.

Back when I paid no attention to creators I wouldn't give it a second thought and would just keep buying the title one way or another. With alot of X-Books this caused me to buy alot of really crappy stories I now regret ever having paid for, but at the time I didn't know any better.

But did you think they were crappy after you read them?
If not, then it wasn't money wasted...

But if they were, then you had to ultimately make a decision as to whether or not you wanted to keep reading them...

So you should have known better.

 

[Elijya]

I am a fanboy... we're all fanboys (or fangirls... )... I could have used any term meaning "rabid comic book fan" in its place... no offense was meant. You're making too much out of nothing here.



When you care about certain characters... let's say the Fantastic Four, then you care about what happens to them regardless of who writes them. If you've followed the FF since issue #1, would you have dropped the book the moment Stan left? Of course not. Like any character, they're going to get their share of good/bad writers over the years, and hopefully more good ones than bad ones. But creative teams come and go, and if you cared about a character when hot creator X was writing the book, why drop it if some unkown creator Z comes on board... I'm not accusing you of doing this, but I know too many comic book readers that do, and I just can't understand it... if you're going to drop a book becasue hot creator X is leaving, then "hot creator X" didn't do a good enough job to make you care about the character to see where things go after the fact.

The answer to this is simply time and quantity. There is SO MUCH out there, and for the majority of people who have other things to occupy our time, it's inconceivable to read it all. You might have been reading Hulk since 1978 or Fantastic Four from #1, but not everybody has. Imagine somebody sees the Hulk movie and says "Hey, I really love this Hulk character and want to read his comics, where should I look?" Now, you might mention that they should look into ther Masterworks or Essentials volumes, but generally the person is not looking for "Start at #1 and read ever issue in order that's come out for the past 40 years". You got to do that as a kid as those issues came out one at a time, but people younger than you can't really do that. Generally if someone wants to get into a character, you generally get the best results by pointing them towards the BEST Hulk stories, or towards a good jumping on point. And generally the best jumping on points are when specific creators came on board with a plan and direction for the character. PAD on Hulk, Simonson on Thor, Claremont of X-Men, Miller on Daredevil, Byrne on Superman, Wolfman on Titans. These are all great periods to direct new readers to.

 

[Elijya]

If you know that characters will have good/bad creators, then the loyalty can be justified, because bad creative A will eventually be replaced, so you can conitnue following their adventures (because continuity of such characters is important to me, and knowing the stuff that happens is equally important).

But having said that, I can only take so many bad creators one after the other... otherwise, I'd still be getting 80 to 100 titles per month. I've dropped stuff over the years when I've felt like I've had enough of bad storytelling, but it takes a while for me to make that decision, because as you well know, a good team may just be around the corner.

Ok, then here's where we're on the same page.

When I talk about reading X-Books when I was youngster, I usually think back to New Mutants/X-Force. That's a title I can easily relate to everything you're saying on. It was the first title I ever got into as a kid, and I didn't want to miss a minute of those characters lives. I still remember incredible minutia about almost every issue. But slowly but surely it just got worse and worse. And I remember just thinking maybe next issue will be better, maybe the issue after that. But it never was, and it was hard for me to realize that I should stop reading the title. It took me fifty issues or so of mediocre story telling for me. But I was 16 or so, and realizing that made me look at all the other x-titles and realize the same thing. I regretted the last two straight years of comics purchases. I didn't want that to happen again, so I raised my bar on quality standards. This also let me expand and check out characters I hadn't considered before, like Cap and Iron Man.

But did you think they were crappy after you read them?
If not, then it wasn't money wasted...

But if they were, then you had to ultimately make a decision as to whether or not you wanted to keep reading them...

So you should have known better.

Yeah, actually, they were. And I did ultimately make that decision, but it took a long time to realize that I should.

I'm not sure what I "should have known better" about?



When there's so much out there, I don't feel a need to know every minute detail of any characters life anymore. I might like Wolverine, I might love him, but I don't need to read EVERYTHING the guy is in. I could read him for five straight years, get bored, then maybe pick it up again a year or three later when I hear maybe from other readers that something interesting is happening again (which, oddly enough, often coincides with a new writer coming on bored). I could pick the title right back up and have no problem. At most, maybe read wikipedia to see if anything important happened while I was gone. And I'll have spared myself money, time, and the torture of having read my favorite character in some crappy stories.

It's also about quality control from an editorial stand point. If a book starts to turn sour and everybody stops reading it, hopefully, ideally, management gets the hint that they should do something different, hopefully/ideally something BETTER, and the book will be worth reading again. But if people continue to read regardless of the quality just because a book has a superman logo on it, why does editorial need to try to make decent stories at all? They have no incentive to make the book as good and interesting as it can be.

 

[Themanofbat]

Ok, then here's where we're on the same page.

When I talk about reading X-Books when I was youngster, I usually think back to New Mutants/X-Force. That's a title I can easily relate to everything you're saying on. It was the first title I ever got into as a kid, and I didn't want to miss a minute of those characters lives. I still remember incredible minutia about almost every issue. But slowly but surely it just got worse and worse. And I remember just thinking maybe next issue will be better, maybe the issue after that. But it never was, and it was hard for me to realize that I should stop reading the title. It took me fifty issues or so of mediocre story telling for me. But I was 16 or so, and realizing that made me look at all the other x-titles and realize the same thing. I regretted the last two straight years of comics purchases. I didn't want that to happen again, so I raised my bar on quality standards. This also let me expand and check out characters I hadn't considered before, like Cap and Iron Man.

I really enjoyed the New Mutants as well, but as the issues neared #100 and once it became X-Force, I was pretty much done... I think I stopped around X-Force #10 or 26, I really can't remember anymore... it was the last issue of some mundane 90's X-Men crossover... it might have had a hologram cover. I think I quit all the X-Books at that point...

Yeah, actually, they were. And I did ultimately make that decision, but it took a long time to realize that I should.

I'm not sure what I "should have known better" about?

Well, technically, you did know better because you stopped buying them... which is what I said "You should have known better" in your response to you saying that you "didn't know better".

When there's so much out there, I don't feel a need to know every minute detail of any characters life anymore. I might like Wolverine, I might love him, but I don't need to read EVERYTHING the guy is in. I could read him for five straight years, get bored, then maybe pick it up again a year or three later when I hear maybe from other readers that something interesting is happening again (which, oddly enough, often coincides with a new writer coming on bored). I could pick the title right back up and have no problem. At most, maybe read wikipedia to see if anything important happened while I was gone. And I'll have spared myself money, time, and the torture of having read my favorite character in some crappy stories.

It's also about quality control from an editorial stand point. If a book starts to turn sour and everybody stops reading it, hopefully, ideally, management gets the hint that they should do something different, hopefully/ideally something BETTER, and the book will be worth reading again. But if people continue to read regardless of the quality just because a book has a superman logo on it, why does editorial need to try to make decent stories at all? They have no incentive to make the book as good and interesting as it can be.

Choices in comics weren't as viable in the late 70's... IF you could even find independant comics, chances are they were for older readers anyway.

And a lot of my favorite characters at that time had 15, 20 year histories, so it wasn't all that difficult to read reprinted material (aaahhh, the old Marvel Treasuries), or even find cheap back issues at the local book store that sold used comics for 15 cents each (or 10 for a buck).

And even though there would be a LOT of redundant material for a fan to get into (as you said... too many silly Wolverine stories), the reprints are also more accessible nowadays.

The industry certainly has changed over the years...

 

[trustyside-kick]

I'm not involved with the large paragraph battle going on, but I just wanted to add that there is nothing wrong with dropping a title.

I just find it ******ed to do so before the new creative team shows you what they can do aka dropping just because you know after issue "A", the current team will no longer be working on the title.

I try to give the new team a few issues before thinking about dropping it. Then I factor in the title that I am having difficulty enjoying, seeing if I hold more faith for it to get better depending on the characters.

Also, (assuming if the majority of people were to do this) if you only buy the A-list writer's stuff, how will anyone else get recognized for stories that are actually really good, but you rejected simply because it wasn't the previous writer(s), thus the sales were not as amazing as they could've been?

 

[Themanofbat]

'Tis no battle... merely one really old comic book reader chatting it up with a not quite so old comic book reader.

 

[Elijya]

oh, we aren't battling, but our paragraphs are.

 

[film_geek]

This isn't really directed at you...but why do people drop certain titles just because a change in the team working on it? If you are a fan of the title, you should stick with it. It annoys me and sounds real dumb when I hear people constantly saying that kind of stuff.

I'll probably keep it for a few issues once the new team joins, but Runaways was great with BKV, pretty good with Whedon, so I'm guessing the quality will keep going down hill.

reading further down, how I buy comics is I look at who writes it, not who it's about. if it's a character I like, that's a plus, but I care fare more about the author. I'd much rather read a character I don't know by an author I love, then read a character I do love written by a pathetic author.

for an example, Warren Ellis. I love that man. I'd follow him to any book, anywhere. if he announces he'll be writing "my pretty pony" by god I'll be picking up the first issue.

I've gone on a mini quest to read everything he's written, and because of that quest I've read some amazing stuff.

Back to the point, the creative team means a lot more them the people they are writing.

take Ultimates. the first two series are in my opinion, some of the best stuff to ever come out of Marvel. Mark Millar and Bryan Hitch, working together to make master pieces.

then for Ultimates 3... we get Jeph Loeb, and whoever the artist is (I'm thinking... MAD?) and I haven't read all of issue one, but from what I have, plus the reviews I've read... it's travesty.

so in my opinion, creators far out rank characters.

 

[Mladen]

When you care about certain characters... let's say the Fantastic Four, then you care about what happens to them regardless of who writes them. If you've followed the FF since issue #1, would you have dropped the book the moment Stan left? Of course not. Like any character, they're going to get their share of good/bad writers over the years, and hopefully more good ones than bad ones. But creative teams come and go, and if you cared about a character when hot creator X was writing the book, why drop it if some unkown creator Z comes on board... I'm not accusing you of doing this, but I know too many comic book readers that do, and I just can't understand it... if you're going to drop a book becasue hot creator X is leaving, then "hot creator X" didn't do a good enough job to make you care about the character to see where things go after the fact.

thats exactly it. you've built up a bond with these characters because you've been reading them since you were small. for some others, they may have watched the tv show or movie of whatever it was when they were kids (though not the fantastic four cartoon that replaced the human torch with a wise-cracking robot, that was bad news). Its almost the soap opera scenario: you keep coming back even when the current story may be really awful, because you NEED to find out what happens to the character who you've developed an almost personal bond with. As you said, you care about these characters.

but for those of us who have no personal connection with these characters, we're reading the comic for the strength of the story, and yes, a lot of the time its based entirely on who is writing it or based on reviews or word of mouth. We don't see the character as a person, we see them as a driving personality for THAT story. If the story was good, we might go out and seek a story which seems to hit similar beats, with the same character or other characters, or the same author/artist.

A lot of us don't have the money or the inclination to buy a book we're not enjoying because of loyalty to an imaginary character, or out of loyalty to a company which already runs a shared monopoly on the comics industry.

 

[Elijya]

Take Hawkeye. I LOVE Hawkeye. He's a great character and it's always a plus just to have him there in any story he shows up in. So of course I checked out the ongoing they tried to give him a few years ago. It was so god-awful, I regret buying it. There was no "give it a few issues", it was just BAD. There was no sign it would get better anytime soon, no promising story arcs set up, no interesting supporting cast introduced, a complete mischaracterization of the character I picked up the book for. And sure enough it only lasted a handful of issues because no one wanted to go anywhere near it. I love Hawkeye probably more than any other single character, and I have NO interest in ever reading the rest of that series, now or when they were coming out.

So if they ever try giving Hawkeye another ongoing or mini, I'll probably check it out again. But if whoever wrote the last series gives another character I like alot a series, I won't. The author has a bigger factor in the quality of the comic than the character.