Not at best in the slightest, it is fact. They are Wolverine FAMILY titles, or even more accurate in my mind, X-MEN family titles. But to say Wolverine has so many titles including these two is false.
I would wager most fans consider them titles connected to Wolverine, either as family or spin-off, and I'd wager even more that retailers order them accordingly.
But who is not Wolverine himself. And not only that, yes, she's a clone, but she's had far more adventures and stories that weren't in any way connected to Wolverine than she's had otherwise. Between NYX and New X-Men she was completely on her own growing as a character outside of Wolverine's shadow. In Uncanny X-Men she was somewhat apart. In X-Force she was teamed with Wolverine and looked at as a daughter figure but she was her own character in it, leading into her new title where she's finding her own self.
Again, a character's origins do not define thier status... only where they came from. X-23 is an X-Men character, no longer just a generic Wolverine copy.
I see X-23 as going through a character route that can reasonably no longer be done with Wolverine, since he's been around so long and had umpteen many WEAPON X stories.
NYX isn't the best thing to herald. Having as an originality point, "she once was a homeless hooker who fought a pimp named, seriously, ZEBRA DADDY" isn't Eisner worthy material. By that logic, U.S. One is a damn awesome character because he fought evil trucker villains like Highway Man.
Has X-23 ever even tried to track down her homeless gal-pals? Or is hitchhiking with Gambit to have a mope marathon across states/countries more important? One would think she'd consider them ESPECIALLY important since they befriended her before she ever met Wolverine or any X-Men.
She's a clone of Wolverine with exactly the same origin, just with different details.
I won't defend Daken near as much because he's still somewhat in Wolverine's shadow and is only just now getting otu of it now that he's moving on to doing things Wolverine's never done, but he does keep bringing Wolverine into it.
So him, yeah, I can see him as potentially a Wolverine family book moreso than X-Men but nonetheless... his book shouldn't be considered another of Wolverine's titles, because Wolverine is minor or non-existent in it most of the time. Daken's branching wings and becoming his own (very interesting) man.
You just like X-23 a lot more than Daken, so you're more offended when I hate on her. S'okay, I'm like that with certain characters too.
In all seriousness, though, Daken is a crappier character. Not even his hairdo works, and his claws are silly looking. I actually see him as a bit of Daniel Way being envious of X-23 and wanting to have "his" version. All he does is undermine her a bit by existing, and she outsells his title as well. There are so many knock-off Wolverine characters that one would be better off dusting some of THEM offer vs. giving him a son.
And this is where I think you fail when it comes to your criticisms of this character and her role in the Marvel Universe. You've often brought up her connections to the cartoon and her being a clone and that seems to be as far as you regard her. I don't know what you've read containing her but those two things are fairly non-existent anymore as she's moved so far beyond them that it's comical. I honestly forgot she was even IN the cartoon until you just mentioned it. Trust me, it's best to forget these aspects (moreso the cartoon aspect than the clone aspect) as these things no longer define her on or off the panel. She's moved beyond all that and has become a character all of her own.
In the cartoon, she was literally created because KID'S WB at the time would hassle Kyle & Yost when they wanted to do "X-MEN EVOLUTION" episodes starring the adults instead of their kid characters (which forced them, kicking and screaming, to flesh out other characters besides Logan). They made X-23 so they could use her as an excuse to have a Logan episodes for the last 2 seasons. Any other philosophical statements about how awesome a character she was to make is pure hokum because her existence was out of practicality first and foremost.
She's a character all her own...but of what?
Logan's deal was different in that he was wondering if he was an animal or a human due to his mutation. X-23 was cloned in a lab and her wondering if she has a soul is a compelling question that I think completely makes sense of her character. I think this is a question and quest that she NEEDED to undertake because, honestly, when I think of clones I don't think of them as people... so her questioning makes a lot of sense. It has nothing to do with Wolverine's old journeys.
The "twist" with X-23 was trying to see what would have happened had Weapon X, or a similar agency, gotten to Logan a lot sooner. Before Romulus from ORIGINS screwed things up, Logan was basically plucked as an adult. X-23 was born and bred to be a tool and nothing more. It's a fine twist. But is it a character? The fact that X-23 has existed for almost 8 years and is STILL on a soul searching quest to figure out who she is in basic terms speaks volumes. If she ever finds it, she loses her central subplot. If you never resolve the central subplot, she remains boring. It's a limbo.
So a clone of Jubilee would be more unique?! Then we'd be hearing how the new kid in Wolverine's life is just Jubilee 2.0.
The bitter truth is that X-Men characters only come in two flavors now; Upbeat or Bleak. The former eventually become the latter, and the latter stay there forever. The X-Men are a franchise where fun, spirit, and hope go to die slow, agonizing deaths. Any character who is in any slight way fun or upbeat either gets mutilated or forgotten, or forced to become a villain. Thus, it would have been hard for X-23 to not imitate some new mutant from the past.
Note that Jubilee is now a vampire, and has gone from Upbeat to Bleak. However, unlike Kitty Pryde, she was genuinely annoying. I rarely could stand her. I didn't mind her turn as Wondra in NEW WARRIORS of all things. But, that would have been too positive - being a superhero with technology and a new costume.
But plenty of women in the world haven't suffered like X-23 has. I mean, she was programmed to kill since she was a child and forced to kill children and her own mother in horrendous ways while having to deal with the fact that she's a clone who may not even be a real person with a soul. I think she has plenty of reason to be gloomy. And she's been growing slowly for years in a very interesting path. I really liked her progression in New X-Men, she regressed in X-Force but has been making more progress in her new title.
She's a fairly 3-Demensional character these days.
To me, she's a boring character who has a good reason to be such a way, but it doesn't change that fact. I know how terrible her origin is, and how "deep" and "meaningful" her angst ridden mope path must be in reaction to it. That doesn't keep her from being boring. The fact that someone is traumatized after having a terrible past isn't innovative or ground breaking - it's standard. How else should she react? No end of films have imagined themselves earth-shattering by having something terrible happen to a character and then showing how sad it makes them.
I can only wonder how X-23 reacted to all the mixed messages the X-Men told her.
"Breeding you to be an emotionless killing machine who does so on command was terrible...but now that you're here, can you please stab targets I want stabbed without asking why? They're all bigots, I swear."
"Just because you're a clone doesn't mean you're not a real person, X-23. Except for those Marauders there, who are clones and don't count and even Iceman will butcher ruthlessly by the thousand and not feel an ounce of guilt over it. Their screams don't count and we make no attempt to free them from Mr. Sinister. You, though, you count, somehow."
Now, look, a little disclosure. I am aware that considering how I sometimes practically beg other people on SHH to not dismiss "newer" characters in their own books or team books and buy a slew of them personally, how my hate on X-23 can seem hypocritical. It probably is. I just can't stand her. My favorite story I have ever seen her in was the LEAGUE OF LOSERS arc in Robert Kirkman's MARVEL TEAM-UP, and that was not only an alternate universe, but people told me he wrote her out of character. Apparently, having a character is out of character for her. Well, I give up. I know she has a dark, terrible, horrible, angst-ridden origin. But that merely justifies her moving on a character path I haven't the foggiest interest in. Also remember that if I have that little interest in a character, nothing and no one can get me to read it, or at least pay to read it. There is not one writer on the face of the earth who would get me to read CABLE. None. The only one would be me, if Marvel hired me to write it. And even then I'd likely feel like a cheap ****. Not even Dan Slott could get me to pay for She-Hulk, and I adore almost everything else he writes. Would I read it for free in a library? Sure. Would I pay $10 for a trade? No.
This is where I disagree to an extent. Yes, Spider-Girl and Venom are in the Spider-Man family, but they aren't Spider-Man books, as Spider-Man has nothing to do with them. When I think of what the Batman books are, I think of Batman, Detective, Batman Inc, Dark Knight, and Batman & Robin. That's a lot on it's own but I never include Red Robin, Batgirl, or Birds of Prey. While in the family, they are not Batman books.
This is all trivial I know, but when complaining about how many books Wolverine has, you should only count Wolverine books, which is Wolverine and Wolverine: The Best There Is (and whatever minis are out focusing on him). This should not include X-23, Daken, Uncanny X-Force, X-Men, Uncanny X-Men, Astonishing X-Men, New Avengers, or Avengers. While he's a part of these titles or influenced someone in these titles, they are not HIS titles in the slightest.
You are the only person on the face of the earth who doesn't consider BATGIRL and RED ROBIN to be Bat-Books to a degree. BIRDS OF PREY, no, at least not since Oracle branched out. Which has now been negated and made moot. Thanks, DC!
UNCANNY X-FORCE is a team Wolverine LEADS, for heaven's sakes. If that isn't his book, what is it? That's like someone telling me SECRET AVENGERS isn't a Cap book. Until issue #13, it sure as hell was. And I read it, and didn't deny it. In fact, I was irritated that it was that way.
SPIDER-GIRL is a Spidey book by virtue of the name and his frequent guest appearances. Even VENOM didn't make it more than 3 issues without Spidey appearing. No, they don't STAR him, but they're linked to him and he remains part of the supporting cast in some tenuous ways. I don't mind considering them Spider-Books, and I read both (and enjoy both).
And yes, if HERC keeps his spider-powers from SPIDER-ISLAND, it'll be a Spider-Book too. Van Lente wrote/co-wrote ASM after all. But HERC's sales have not been pretty since the debut, so, how it is seen isn't something that should plague it long, since it'll struggle to see a 9th issue. Surely you, as a NEW WARRIOR fan, remembered that time in the 90's when Marvel desperately tried to keep the first volume going by having Ben Reilly join the team for the sole purpose of making it thusly "a Spider-Book", complete with a Spidey icon in the title dress. Now, I wouldn't consider AVENGERS or FF Spidey books, but they sure overlap and add to the exposure.
Brainstorm: A book that has X-23 and the lone MVP Clone Scarlet Spider team up to fight the Hate-Monger. Call them the Clone Rangers. First one who shows an emotion dies!
In all seriousness, that could be somewhat fun in an absurd way.
This I can agree with. Marvel stretches everything so far and customer's wallets so thin that people just can't afford to buy them and then they wonder why their sales are deminishing. I may like Daken and X-23, and it's a gamble that's paid off for me, but all in all I don't think they need "The Best There Is" or whatever minis he's in, as well as all these other books that aren't necessary. Example: X-Men, X-Men Legacy, Astonishing X-Men, and Unanny X-Men... which is branching into two new X-Men books soon equalling 5 X-Men books. Add New Mutants and Uncanny X-Force to that (who's cast also comprise of all X-Men) and that's 7 books on the X-Men. That's just not necessary at all.
Right. The X-Men have needed some trimming since, well, the mid 90's. But Marvel never does. They replace every X-Book they cancel with 2 more, and have since Bob "Bankruptcy" Harras was in charge.
