Marvel's losing its edge and DC's getting its back

[DoomsdayApex]

Cap, Thor, and IM 2 are very debatable regarding their quality. There's no overwhelming consensus of opinions on any of these films to label any of these films "borderline mediocre". And I'd exclude the third films of franchises, because there's yet to be any comic book film that's made it to a third film, where the third film was as good as it could be.

Conjecture. To me, the films fail to capture my overall attention. None of these films can compare to the first two X-Men, the first two Spiderman, Blade, Ironman, and The Incredible Hulk.

Now you're just trying to make this a Marvel vs. DC fight for no reason. Trying to associate Green Lantern's failure with Marvel is just a ridiculous reach that you've presented no basis for.

You're full of it here. The Marvel formula for films is nothing associated with a Marvel vs. DC bias. So save it. Most Marvel films follow the same template for each movie. If you cannot see it then that is your issue.

You're oversimplifying, and overestimating fan input.

No, I am not. DC and WB refuse to regroup and rethink their approach to a JLA film.

What are you even talking about? Seriously.

Read the statement again if it escaped your logic.

Like they tried to do with Wonder Woman? To say nothing of the fact that it was being developed by a producer responsible for putting close to a dozen critically acclaimed shows on television? Yeah, it didn't work out, but an effort was made.

Effort? It appeared to me and plenty of other fans that "effort" was nowhere near in sight.

But hey, perhaps you are right, Spielberg never directed a crappy film either, by that logic.

I know you'd like to think it's that easy, but such an undertaking requires a lot of planning.

Of course, but other than the Batman franchise and the New 52, what has WB and DC planned and put into action other than mid-tier animated films/shows, horrid flicks such as Green Lantern & Johan Hex?

People need to get off Nolan's jock. I love what he's done with Batman, but for the love of God, people are really taking this deification of the man to such an insane level, I can't take some of you people seriously. Stop suggesting him for every goddamn comic book movie! I honestly believe that a lot of you don't even stop to think whether or not a particular director would even be a fit for certain characters. You just have this misguided belief that Nolan can do everything, and at that point, I don't wanna hear anything you have to say after that.

You just sound like a jealous highschool cheerleader here.

Notice: I named various other directors as well.

Nolan is known as one of the best directors in Hollywood (if not the best) today. He deserves to have these expectations and reputation not only because of Batman. Films like Inception, Memento, The Prestige, The Following and Insomnia are pure gold.

Your opinions might be different and/or harbor resentment but he's achieved so much in so little time.

So please, until he fails or cannot prove otherwise, Nolan is a director to revere.

 

[OsGom]

I don't want DC to follow Marvel's formula. Marvel is too conservative (afraid to take risks). Following Marvel's formula got us the atrocity known as the Green Lantern.

Marvel had the balls to bet EVERYTHING on launching their own production house and IM with a plan to launch an integrated MU film universe. I would say that is far from conservative or afraid to risks. They do have a formula and it works. It also unifies their brand with an underlying style. All that planning and sacrifice is about to pay off in a big way with The Avengers. Don't blame the failure of GL on Marvel.

If WB and DC could just put aside their egotistical antics and listen to the fans who got them thus far, these executives would be raking in alot more dough than they are currently.

If movie execs listened to fanboys Heath would have never played the Joker and we would have the JLA with John Cena as Batman and Megan Fox as Wonder Woman and a billion dollar price tag. Gimme a break!

I think the DC/WB relationship is broken but there are just as many boneheads in fandom as there is in Hollywood.

WB needs to adopt and stick to some kind of strategy in regard to how to manage and develop DC properties. But IMO WB see superheroes as just another fad and to this point their efforts to capitalize have been less than stellar. Don't look for WB to greenlight any other projects outside of BM & SM. At least not until after DKR and MoS are proven sucesses.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Marvel had the balls to bet EVERYTHING on launching their own production house and IM with a plan to launch an integrated MU film universe. I would say that is far from conservative or afraid to risks. They do have a formula and it works. It also unifies their brand with an underlying style. All that planning and sacrifice is about to pay off in a big way with The Avengers. Don't blame the failure of GL on Marvel.

Once more, I'm not blaming Marvel. Read my statement more carefully. I clearly indicated that it was Marvel's formula that the Green Lantern's production crew followed. Of course Marvel isn't to blame, but cut it out because at this point you're insulting my intellect by proclaiming that I blame Marvel as a whole.

Yes, Marvel has taken a few risks but when you look at films such as Thor, Ironman 2, and Captain America, they literally scream out 'indolent'.

If movie execs listened to fanboys Heath would have never played the Joker and we would have the JLA with John Cena as Batman and Megan Fox as Wonder Woman and a billion dollar price tag. Gimme a break!

I'm not saying Fanboys should dictate the film's direction or cast. I, myself, know why. I doubted Heath. However, there have plenty of fantastic ideas from sane fans that could be utilized instead of executives making asinine choices (approach-wise).

For example, Wonder Woman is an iconic character and has preformed quite impressively in DVD sales -- beating out Batman/Superman and JLA films as of late. Instead of taking advantage of this cash cow, WB and DC do a pathetic job in organizing a TV show that strayed away from Wonder Woman's origins and character.

I think the DC/WB relationship is broken but there are just as many boneheads in fandom as there is in Hollywood.

That we can agree on.

WB needs to adopt and stick to some kind of strategy in regard to how to manage and develop DC properties. But IMO WB see superheroes as just another fad and to this point their efforts to capitalize have been less than stellar. Don't look for WB to greenlight any other projects outside of BM & SM. At least not until after DKR and MoS are proven sucesses.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on this point as well. WB only uses the Batman and Superman franchises for a quick buck. WB is well aware that a Batman and Superman film will at least bring in 300 million due to the characters' popularity.

I have high hopes for the MoS and TDKR projects. Hopefully they succeed and surpass expectations so WB and DC can finally take notice and risks.

 

[KenK]

Once more, I'm not blaming Marvel. Read my statement more carefully. I clearly indicated that it was Marvel's formula that the Green Lantern's production crew followed.

What is this "Marvel formula" you speak of?

Of course Marvel isn't to blame, but cut it out because at this point you're insulting my intellect by proclaiming that I blame Marvel as a whole.

Stop positing DC vs. Marvel scenarios in your arguments, then.

"If not for Nolan, Marvel films would be manhandling DC."

"Green Lantern failed because it followed the Marvel formula."

Yes, Marvel has taken a few risks but when you look at films such as Thor, Ironman 2, and Captain America, they literally scream out 'indolent'.

Having scene all these films, I didn't see anything lazy about them. (by the way, put away your thesaurus, no one's impressed)

I'm not saying Fanboys should dictate the film's direction or cast. I, myself, know why. I doubted Heath. However, there have plenty of fantastic ideas from sane fans that could be utilized instead of executives making asinine choices (approach-wise).

More often than not, fans only see certain choices made for the film as asinine because they're not from the comics. True, some aren't always necessary, but sometimes, they work in the context of the film. And some of the instances of fans complaining about changes, are asinine themselves. Complaining about organic webshooters, anyone?

For example, Wonder Woman is an iconic character and has preformed quite impressively in DVD sales -- beating out Batman/Superman and JLA films as of late. Instead of taking advantage of this cash cow, WB and DC do a pathetic job in organizing a TV show that strayed away from Wonder Woman's origins and character.

Are we talking about the Lynda Carter series? The ONE solo animated movie DC animation has done? It would help if you actually posted these sales figures.

I have high hopes for the MoS and TDKR projects. Hopefully they succeed and surpass expectations so WB and DC can finally take notice and risks.

The successes of Batman and Superman in non-comic media are their successes alone. They're not going to factor into what WB decides to do with other major DC characters, if it hasn't already. Smallville is not only the longest-running series based on a DC comic, but on any comic period. Its success hasn't seen any other major DC character come to the small screen in a live-action series with any real success. Remember Birds of Prey? The Aquaman pilot that never went to series?

 

[DoomsdayApex]

What is this "Marvel formula" you speak of?

It's basically, what I like to call "The Cookie Cutter" template. Most of these movies are virtually identical (stylistically). If you take a step back and view them collectively, all of these Marvel flicks are really starting to appear the same. Part of the issue is that 95% of origin stories are essentially the same. For instance, an average joe gets unique powers and decides to do something extraordinary with them.

Obviously, this doesn’t pertain to just Marvel, but considering the amount of movies they’ve released in a relatively short amount of time (along with more on the way), it gets incredibly repetitive.

Granted, each film has a different story and protagonist, but these films all uphold the same structure: discovery, hardship, soul-searching, cheesy/corny fun & humor, love interest, rescue, acceptence, epic final battle -- The End.

Marvel Studios loves creating fun hero flicks because it's worked thus far, and that's the problem. Since Ironman, Marvel has taken fewer risks and stuck with the indistinguishable formula/template for a few years now. Therefore, nothing new has been attempted. No real depth or substance is present.

DULL.

Stop positing DC vs. Marvel scenarios in your arguments, then.

"If not for Nolan, Marvel films would be manhandling DC."

"Green Lantern failed because it followed the Marvel formula."

Marvel Studios manhandling WB and DC has nothing to do with a DC vs Marvel agenda. It's based on the successes of these films in the industry. As of late, Marvel is dominating the field. So it's true, if it weren't for Nolan's Bat franchise, DC would remain nonexistent.

Green Lantern failed partly due to that reason alone. How is it bias when it's true?

Having scene all these films, I didn't see anything lazy about them. (by the way, put away your thesaurus, no one's impressed)

Terribly sorry that I am a Vocabulist.

Don't care if you're not impressed. Grow up.

More often than not, fans only see certain choices made for the film as asinine because they're not from the comics. True, some aren't always necessary, but sometimes, they work in the context of the film. And some of the instances of fans complaining about changes, are asinine themselves. Complaining about organic webshooters, anyone?

It works both ways similar to a double-edged sword. Nevertheless, I am positive that a neutral balance or middle ground can be mandated.

Are we talking about the Lynda Carter series? The ONE solo animated movie DC animation has done? It would help if you actually posted these sales figures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Universe_Animated_Original_Movies#US_sales

WW's sales have been rather impressive.

The successes of Batman and Superman in non-comic media are their successes alone. They're not going to factor into what WB decides to do with other major DC characters, if it hasn't already. Smallville is not only the longest-running series based on a DC comic, but on any comic period. Its success hasn't seen any other major DC character come to the small screen in a live-action series with any real success. Remember Birds of Prey? The Aquaman pilot that never went to series?

True, but you to have acknowledge now that the Harry Potter series has come to an end, a significant portion of that revenue will cease to return. WB is starting to shop around and seek replacements for the time ensuing. A JLA film with individual origin stories are the top candidates.

 

[cherokeesam]

It's basically, what I like to call "The Cookie Cutter" template. Most of these movies are virtually identical (stylistically). If you take a step back and view them collectively, all of these Marvel flicks are really starting to appear the same. Part of the issue is that 95% of origin stories are essentially the same. For instance, an average joe gets unique powers and decides to do something extraordinary with them.

Obviously, this doesn’t pertain to just Marvel, but considering the amount of movies they’ve released in a relatively short amount of time (along with more on the way), it gets incredibly repetitive.

Granted, each film has a different story and protagonist, but these films all uphold the same structure: discovery, hardship, soul-searching, cheesy/corny fun & humor, love interest, rescue, acceptence, epic final battle -- The End.

Marvel Studios loves creating fun hero flicks because it's worked thus far, and that's the problem. Since Ironman, Marvel has taken fewer risks and stuck with the indistinguishable formula/template for a few years now. Therefore, nothing new has been attempted. No real depth or substance is present.

DULL.

That "formula" is true of almost every movie out there, and that "formula" was set out as far back as the ancient Greeks when they presented the first drama.

It's a bit disingenuous to fault Marvel for doing origins stories when the nature of the genre *dictates* origins stories for metahumans. Plus, once you get into sequels, the origins story is no longer there. TIH only dealt with Hulk's origins in the opening credits, and actually began in media res, with Banner on the run in Brazil. Thor, of course, has NO origins story whatsoever, and does not even remotely begin to follow your "cookie-cutter" formula.

While I agree that Marvel Studios needs to take more risks than they did in 2011, I don't think they've shown that they follow any one formula. Iron Man could have been guilty of that, but was saved by a charismatic lead whose improv *made* that movie; Thor, as I said, isn't even remotely like any other superhero story out there. TIH would have been a better movie if Marvel had let Leterrier and Norton follow their own vision more (the controversial "suicide on ice" scene would have been a complete game-changer for that movie). Cap is the only one guilty of following your formula, and that's largely because Evans is not a great actor....he stuck meekly and faithfully to the script and did little to make the role his own, unlike RDJ, Norton and Hemsworth.

 

[The Morningstar]

I completely disagree. Evans gave a great, sincere and heartfelt performance. Specifically the scenes with Atwell. And I thought the first hour or so of Captain America, the actual origin part, was the best part of it. And the very end, where he suddenly realises that everyone he ever cared for is most likely dead was a great bit of acting. He sold his emotions through his eyes and facial expression instead of words given to him by a script.

Just because he didn't ab-lib like RDJ or get involved in the screenplay like Norton doesn't mean his performance was any weaker. I'd say his performance was superior to Norton's by quite a margin, actually.

 

[Red.Star.Killer]

I completely disagree. Evans gave a great, sincere and heartfelt performance. Specifically the scenes with Atwell. And I thought the first hour or so of Captain America, the actual origin part, was the best part of it. And the very end, where he suddenly realises that everyone he ever cared for is most likely dead was a great bit of acting. He sold his emotions through his eyes and facial expression instead of words given to him by a script.

Just because he didn't ab-lib like RDJ or get involved in the screenplay like Norton doesn't mean his performance was any weaker. I'd say his performance was superior to Norton's by quite a margin, actually.

I Agree 100%

 

[chiefchirpa]

It's basically, what I like to call "The Cookie Cutter" template. Most of these movies are virtually identical (stylistically). If you take a step back and view them collectively, all of these Marvel flicks are really starting to appear the same. Part of the issue is that 95% of origin stories are essentially the same. For instance, an average joe gets unique powers and decides to do something extraordinary with them.

And WB/DC superhero films are of any different outside of Nolan's? Check out Green Lantern, mate...

Iron Man is a fresh take of public non-emoish superhero.
Thor is a hard subject to make, yet it thrives.
Cap is a period piece stuff but it works.

All done by not-so-big (read: affordable) directors and mostly by relatively unknown casts.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Nolan is known as one of the best directors in Hollywood (if not the best) today. He deserves to have these expectations and reputation not only because of Batman. Films like Inception, Memento, The Prestige, The Following and Insomnia are pure gold.

Your opinions might be different and/or harbor resentment but he's achieved so much in so little time.

So please, until he fails or cannot prove otherwise, Nolan is a director to revere.

I'm a big fan of Nolan's work but he's not the most versatile filmmaker around. He tends to stick with a certain style and tone with his movies. I think it would be cool to see him go out of his comfort zone with a comedy or something along those lines. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a guaranteed failure if he took on a more lighthearted comic book character, but I will say that it's fair for people to question it. It would be interesting to see, regardless of success or failure.

 

[Panthro]

With Green Lantern's cinematic future in doubt and little to no progress on the other DC characters fans and general audiences may actually care about - Wonder Woman, the Flash, etc. - and Marvel gearing up sequels for Thor, Cap, Iron Man and the Avengers just around the corner, I wouldn't say Marvel's "losing it's edge and DC's getting it back."

 

[Micromind]

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Bot, at least get your grammar right ??

 

[TheDragonator]

"JLA" & "Avengers" can't. Not feasibly. Too many individuals competing for equal screen time. It doesn't make for good storytelling.

1). It's way more likely to happen than a Avengers movie (which was the original point, if you'll recall)

LMAO! Then I guess David Goyer DIDN'T announce that he's directing the Flash. What a moron.

Yes, a live action Avengers movie will never, ever happen

It's hillarious seeing what people thought back then. Lo, how the tables have turned.

 

[Saint]

Yeah, it's hilarious how my statement was completely factual (hint: that project later went through other directors before finally imploding doesn't make what I said any less true).

 

[Chris Wallace]

It's hillarious seeing what people thought back then. Lo, how the tables have turned.

Wow. I said that? Huh.

 

[Quasimod0]

And yet we have a trailer for the avengers already. Thankyou marvel studios for proving us wrong

 

[Captainhulk]

The title of this thread is the funniest thing I've ever saw! "Marvel's losing its edge and DC's getting its back"
Superman returns, catwoman and Green Lantern! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

 

[CConn]

...

ANYWAY, this thread is kind of totally pointless now. This was made all the way back when 20th Century Fox was screwing the life out of all of it's Marvel properties.

Now that Marvel Studios exist, Marvel's better than ever film-wise.

DC's still sputtering out a 50/50 record in terms of quality.

 

[CConn]

The title of this thread is the funniest thing I've ever saw! "Marvel's losing its edge and DC's getting its back"
Superman returns, catwoman and Green Lantern! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Batman Begins
The Dark Knight
V For Vendetta
A History of Violence
Road to Perdition
American Splendor

That's all I'm saying.

 

[Anubis]

That's why you don't talk in absolutes, and when proven wrong, ignore it and make a penis joke.

 

[TheDragonator]

Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America.

All three of those are more recognizable than half the films you just listed.

Name one financial and critical success, that the fans mostly liked, outside of Batman in the 21st century that DC has done.

 

[Anubis]

Well, define financial success?

V for Vendetta, History of Violence, Road to Perdition, and American Splendor didn't cost that much to make. But they made double their budget. All got critical praise, all are praised as decent to great adaptations by their fans. Think that counts as a success on all fronts, right?

So, since V for Vendetta was done by WB/DC, that.

 

[TheDragonator]

Half of that money went to the theaters, so it didn't really make that much more than it's budget.

 

[Anubis]

Well, what does that matter?

A success is a success. For all involved. Theaters made money, and the production company made back what they spent and then some. Win, Win.

 

[TheDragonator]

Okay, that's THREE films WB/DC has made that were at least decent.

But what about the constant failures they made? Like Catwoman, Jonah Hex, and Green Lantern, which was basically 200 million flushed down the crapper?

Or Superman Returns, which most fans don't like?

Meanwhile, Marvel (Studios) has made multiple well liked films over the course of four years. They also show infinitely more initiative than DC has.