Matthew Vaughn Mentions X-Men

[Neto Magnus]

Jeez, I just remembered why I don't like getting into these debates anymore. I can't be sitting here all day reading all this ****. But it's amusing to me sometimes when I read comments from both sides. You guys can't seem to come to a compromise. Everyone here agrees that TLS had many flaws yet you people can't stop bickering about who hated it more. Then there's the whole "everyone's entitled to their opinion" blah blah speech but no one seems to respect it. All it's come down to now is whether who's right and who's wrong. And it'll be forever a stalemate. Cuz no one is right and no one is wrong. This is no different then talking about religion or politics.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Jeez, I just remembered why I don't like getting into these debates anymore. I can't be sitting here all day reading all this ****. But it's amusing to me sometimes when I read comments from both sides. You guys can't seem to come to a compromise. Everyone here agrees that TLS had many flaws yet you people can't stop bickering about who hated it more. Then there's the whole "everyone's entitled to their opinion" blah blah speech but no one seems to respect it. All it's come down to now is whether who's right and who's wrong. And it'll be forever a stalemate. Cuz no one is right and no one is wrong. This is no different then talking about religion or politics.

Exactly. It was going fine until certain posters got defensive and started to insult other posters. But what you said is the absolute truth.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

I could imagine he,or anyone else really,could have done a better job than what was actually made.

 

[Theweepeople]

I wasn't around for the production, so I don't know what drastic changes (if any) were made.

So if you don't know what drastic changes(if any) were made then I ask you the same question again. How can you hate Vaughn so much and praise Ratner when there is little proof the script used by Ratner was significantly different from Vaughn's?

All I know is that the ideas that I have heard that Matthew Vaughn had were absolutley horrible, downright laughable.

Laughable ideas that may or may not have been used in the script? Practically every sci-fi movie that has ever made had horrible storyboard ideas that didn't make it into the movie. The original storyboard alien design for the film predator was hideous. Fortunately, it re-designed at the last minute. Should we call the production team of that classic sci-fi film morons for coming up with an idea that had no effect on the finished product of the film?

I think it's interesting that you find these ideas to be laughable when Ratner came up with the following horrible ideas:

Xavier appearing after the screen credits. This negates the emotional impact of Xavier's death. Also, who in the hell's body did Xavier go into. One that looks exactly like his?

Replacing two popular brotherhood mutant members(Avalanche/Scarlet Witch) with Quills/Arclight.

Magneto and Mystique playing chess in a park. WTH?!!!

Magneto getting his powers back. That makes the whole mutant cure conflict irrelevant.

Funny how I didn't see you go into a fit about how idiot all these ideas are? This is also another display of hypocrisy.

With Vaughn out of the picture, Kinberg and Penn were able to get rid of his horrible ideas (Stacy X, Leech in a backpack, Danger Room that makes absolutley no sense)... unfortunatley some of the horrible ideas remained, such as killing Cyclops and Xavier..

I don't remember too much about Stacy X. Please explain to me what was horrible about that idea.

What I know of the danger room storyboard didn't bother me. The room produces holograms so why do you have a problem with Kitty and Bobby appearing to get incinerated.

The idea of Leech in the backpack originally sounded stupid. This was one of Vaughn's weakest ideas because being exposed to Leech could have lowered Wolverine's immune system mutant power, thereby exposing him to metal poisening. However, after carefully considering this idea if Vaughn designed Leech's powers in a way that gave him more control then what he had in Ratner's X3 then it could make some sense. If Leech had the ability to focus his powers than he could depower any mutant that got close to Wolverine for a short period of time. The extent of the damage taken by Wolverine would depend on how much control Leech had over his powers.

What amazes me about this complaint is some of the same people who have a problem with Logan being exposed to Leech had no problem with the extent of the damage he took during Jean going berserk at Al-catraz. Wolverine had never stayed conscious while taking a beating like that in the previous movies nor in X3. Rogue knocked him out twice in X1. A couple of darts almost knocked him out in X2. A bullet knocked him out in X2. In X3 jean knocks Wolverine out by simply knocking him against a wall. Juggernaut nearly incapacitated Wolverine twice with a throw, a kick, and a few punches. Magneto knocked Wolverine out at his base. After witnessing how badly lower classed mutants can hurt logan could you please explain to me how a godlike mutant wasn't even able to make logan wince while ripping of chunks of his flesh

Irrationally pro-Ratner? What is so irrational about it?

I already explained this to you. There is nothing wrong with being pro-Ratner. What I have a problem with is you being pro-Ratner and anti-Vaughn when Ratner took the core elements of the script that Vaughn was going to use. That's hypocritical.

Sounds to me like YOU GUYS are the ones trying to make yourselves feel better about not liking the film.

Don't be concerned about my feelings. I was comfortable about my opinions of X3 a year ago. I'm more comfortable a year later.

What is irrational about defending someone who I believe offered up a good product?.

As I previous said this is not what we are debating.

The general plot was the most exciting story of the 3 films

The script sounded like the most exciting of the 3 movies. Unfortunately, the excution was flawed and the energy of the script didn't translate well.

with the most epic and most exciting action sequences of the entire trilogy

If that's the way you feel so be it. I was not too impressed with any of the sequences. All of them had too many flaws for me and none felt epic. By the way I thought you told me you were convinced that the best action sequence in the entire triology was with Nighcrawler at the beginning of X2?

It wasn't a problem. It's a movie. Not a comic book. You gotta have your frontline characters.They were the obvious choice.

What made Wolverine the obvious choice? We already had two movies about him and this story was supposed to be about Cyclops and Jean?

Why did Storm suddenly turn into a frontline character after this character got little screen time and dialogue in the previous films? If you're validating Storm's role in X3 due to her lack of screentime in other X-films then other underdeveloped characters in the previous films had just as much right to get more development in X3.

Jean and Magneto also got tons of focus and screentime as well.

Correction. Jean got tons of meaningless screentime and Magneto had plenty of bizzare screentime that caused me to question the irrevelance of his actions.

Having confusing and irrelevant screentime for 4 characters still doesn't negate the lack of development for all the other characters(Mutants and Humans(What was the significance of Trask and Dr. Moira MacTaggert's roles in the film?))

We're arguing about the title now?

Of course. The title is part of the crappy movie.

It's called "The Last Stand" because this is the war that has been building up for 2 movies already.

I don't remember seeing a war in X3. I did see a poorly planned out pharmaceutical raid that ended with a short and silly looking skirmish.

Wolverine finally chooses a side.

Sorry but, your wrong. Wolverine chose his side at the end of X2. The last line he said to William Stryker makes this fact indisputable. What was Wolverine's last stand again? Even if what you said was true that would make this Wolverine's first stand in a movie where he was supposed to make his last stand.

Storm firmly takes a stand on her beliefs.

You do realize that this would be a first stand for Storm don't you? Not a last stand.

Beast makes his choice and takes his stand on the situation.

Magneto builds his army and fights for what he believes in.

Iceman, Kitty Pryde, and Colossus all step up to the plate and grow up, becoming X-Men and not just kids anymore.

We can continue this intriguing discussion again after you figure out the difference between taking a stand and a last stand.


Since you were unable to explain what any of the last stands were for the characters maybe the film's title should have been changed to X-Men 3: The First Stand.

Um, if you know anything about human emotions, most of the time they never are logical.

No kidding.

I have fallen "in love" at first sight before. Is it true love? No. But the feelings are there enough for me to desire that person, to want that person. It wasn't "true love" in the movies though, that is why the feelings aren't returned.

This still doesn't address this significant problem I and many others have with Wolverine believing he is in love with Jean throughout the whole damn movie.

What you are describing sounds like lust to me. I have plenty of experience with that. Teenagers and young adults experience these feelings all the time after initially meeting someone. However, it is very uncommon for mature men and Women to experience. Unless Logan didn't go through puberty I find it inconceivable that someone as old and well traveled as him could truely believe he was in love with Jean after their initial meeting.

After analyzing the first two X-Men films it's obvious that there was not even a single instance where Logan showed love for Jean. In X1 he merely flirted with her.

In X2 it becomes even more apparent that logan is not in love with Jean. If Logan was in love with Jean then he would have her best interests in mind. The fact that he tries to kiss Jean and convince her in the forest that he can be her man while cyclops is missing and probably in danger shows Logan is only concerned about his wishes. Then a few scenes later when Logan encounters a disguised mystique his desire to have sex with Jean is obviously so great that it clouds the judgement of his mutant senses.

If Logan was never truely in love with Jean in X1 and X2 then how does he become in love with the Jean in X3 who was a warped psychotic version of the woman who Logan previously lusted for? Of course it's overwhelmingly obvious there is no way Logan actually loved Jean in X3. This creates the dilemna of explaining what motivated Logan to pursue Jean and try to save her multiple times.

If Logan was not motivated by love then the only other two possible factors that could have influenced his actions are lust and friendship. It is laughable to suggest that Logan's consistent desire to save Jean was motivated by lust. That leaves us with the friendship motivation factor. I didn't think Wolverine knew Jean long enough to consider her a good friend but, since they had previously joined forces on a team it made some sense for him to have a desire to save her.

This is where another significant problem manifests itself. How can Logan who barely knew Jean have a greater desire to save her then all of the other X-Men characters in X3?!!!! Logan appeared to be more patient than Xavier who arrogantly tried to use the same tactics again on Jean which no surprisingly caused his death. Logan appeared to be more sympathetic towards Jean than Storm who barely even mentions Jean's name or reffers to her in the entire film. Logan appeared to be more interested in the fate of Jean than any of the x-kids. Was there even a single scene in the film where an X-Kid expresses sympathy towards what happened to Jean?

Um, well he flung him quite a distance away. Perhaps he didn't realize that Wolverine was there to listen to the entire speech. Perhaps he thought his trip through the woods would render him a bit more incapacitated. Maybe you're just thinking about the movie a bit too hard and picking at it a bit too closely.

This doesn't address what I was complaining about. Logan knew the location of his base. It didn't matter if he heard Magneto's speech. It made no sense to let Wolverine go if he could tell the government and X-Men about the exact location of his base.

Also, I don't understand how Magneto could be totally callous towards a friend(Mystique) who got cured, then feel remorse for an enemy who was once a friend(Xavier), and then give mercy to someone who was always an enemy(Logan) he had no respect for. All I ask for is consistency. The Magneto in X3 acted like he had multiple personalities.




Well, the disappearance of Pyro in this scene actually didn't make sense.

But neither were Singer's scripts. Afterall, there is a huge moment where the audience is expected to just accept it

Of course all scripts have flaws. Singer films have many of them. I just personally think that X3 has the most flaws of the X-films.

when somehow Sabretooth knows exactly where Wolverine and Rogue are in Canada (Magneto and the Brotherhood have no Cerebro to track down mutants over great distances),

This is not a plot inconsistency and I already gave a rational explanation for this last year. Magneto could have found out about Rogue's manifestation of her powers through the internet, newspaper, or tv. After hearing about this he probably sent Mystique to her town to extract information about her family, condition, and her whereabouts. After finding out where Rogue was going she informed Magneto and he sent Sabertooth to track her. It's pretty obvious that Sabertooth was not tracking logan. Logan happened to be in the same location that Rogue was being tracked Sabertooth in. That's not an annoying plot inconsistency. It's called a plot element that was necessary for the story to go forward. All movies have these elements and I don't have a problem with them. Not having Rogue meet Wolverine in Canada would have removed Logan from the whole story.

for Xavier to know that Sabretooth is tracking a mutant, and sends the X-Men to grab Wolverine (Cerebro only shows Xavier where mutants are, not what their intent is, and surely Xavier isn't on Cerebro 24 / 7 tracking down anyone and everyone that might be associated with Magneto and where they might be) only for Magneto to have been after Rogue all along, but there would have been absolutley no way for him to A. know where Rogue was, or B. even know anything about Rogue period.)

Actually, you're wrong. In order to find out some of these things all Xavier would have to do was use cerebro to read Magneto's mind. He might have found out some of these things after quickly probing Eric's mind at the mutant political registration conference. Xavier was probably able to determine that Eric was sending Sabertooth to find a mutant in Canada. You're right that Xavier isn't on Cerebro 24/7 but, during the times that he was on he could have temporarily tracked Sabertooth's locations. While tracking Sabertooth's locations Xavier could also use cerebro to check these general areas for mutants. If Sabertooth happened to be roaming around that small town for Rogue, where Wolverine was, and while Xavier checks this area for mutants then Xavier could have easily suspected that Wolverine was the mutant Sabertooth was after. There is nothing illogical about this.

Sometimes, you just accept those falacies for the greater good of the story.

I don't see these as falacies. I see these as a few coincidences and plot elements that were necessary for the story to move forward.

I don't think that superhero movies are meant to be extremely deep and metaphorical.

You're right but, other superhero films like Batman Begins and Spiderman have displayed clear and relevant themes.

But if anything, I think it comes down to being who you want to be.

Experience tells me this is not always a positive way to think. That theme is a bit too vague for my tastes.

 

[Theweepeople]

The X-Men are against the cure, but they are willing to fight to protect it.

How does this theme apply to the real world? I can't think of an exact context in our society where this theme would work.

Rogue maybe gave up who she was but she became who she wanted to be. And that's probably more important than sticking with what you were born with just because it's how you were born. Do I agree with the choice? No. But I don't see it as "give up who you are to fit in" like you do, when throughout 2 movies now, what she was isn't what she wanted to be.

This is all relative. Rogue didn't seem to be too unhappy while being around other mutants in X1 and X2. You may not agree with the theme of "give up who you are to fit in" but, it is just as relevant as the theme you believe in. Overall, I still think this movie has too many themes. Some are okay. Some are confusing. Too many of theme contradict each other. I wanted this movie to have a clear and concise theme that can be applied to our society and I still don't see it.

Yes. You seem to think that human reactions and instincts are formulaic, or mathematical or something, when they aren't. Do you react identically to every situation that arises? No. Then why should Jean?

Yes I've heard this before and I undestand this. I also, understand that inspite of reations and instincts not being formulaic or mathematical it is still possible to notice basic patterns in human behavior. Unfortunately, one of the few patterns I was able to discern with Jean was that the deaths of the people she killed were dictated by Fox's studio executives. Another pattern I was able to identify was the lives of the people Jean spared were also dictated by Fox'es studio executives. Jean barely displayed any discernible patterns in human behavior that would indicate her inteligence was greater than a toddler.

The Phoenix is the instinctual, animalistic part of Jean. She reacted by instinct against Wolverine.

Where's the consistency? She reacts like an animal around Cyclops to the extent that it kills him but, doesn't around Wolverine even though that scene with Logan appears to be more emotional(Which makes no sense.) because Logan and Jean are about to have sex.

The situation with Xavier was a bit more threatening to her than anything that Wolverine posed. She didn't "spare" him. She lashed out. She just didn't destroy him. It's not irrational in the least bit.

You've got to be kidding me. Jean read the minds of Xavier(Who meant her no physical harm) during the middle of the film and Wolverine(who meant to kill Jean) at the end and she thought Xavier was more threatening? That's believable.

It wasn't irrational.

Jean was no longer Jean... she was an animalistic, instinctual side of Jean. She couldn't go "home", because "home" she would have been "caged" and locked up.

If Jean was truely as animalistic and instinctual to the extent that you are suggesting then she wouldn't be able to discriminate between who was good and bad. The moment Magneto would try to convince her to join his army she would attack him.

Magneto offered her encouragement to be what she was, to be free. As a human, you still want that emotional grounding. As a being of instinct, Magneto provided her with the more appealing situation, because he encouraged her to be free, instead of trying to cage her and control her.

Hogwash. First of all Jean became free after she killed the only telepathic threat that had been trying to hold her back for decades. Secondly, Magneto was clearly trying to control her and Jean must have known this since she is a telepath. She had no problem realizing this when Xavier tried to control her a second time. In fact Jean's behavior towards Magneto after showing her the cure weapon and needles suggests
that she doesn't trust Magneto and there is no reason for her to stay because there is nothing Magneto can offer her that she can't obtain on her own. Why did she stay with the brotherhood after coming to this realization?

Yes. The majority of the time she was with the Brotherhood, Magneto was giving speeches, and rallying his troops. There was really nothing for Jean TO do.

This is why I don't buy your explanation for why Jean joined forces with the brotherhood. It appears as though Magneto gave Jean the freedom to do nothing.

On Alcatraz, it made sense for her to stand around, because there was no direct threat to her.

Yes, there was. When the soilders fired the cure needles directly at Magneto and the rest of the mutants who weren't cured that was a direct threat. There was no guarantee that Magneto would be able to protect them from those plastic needles. That was more of a direct threat than the handful of soilders that fired their weapons at Jean later. Jean should have completely lost it near the beginning of the battle. Furthermore, could you please explain to me how a bunch of soilders who weren't trying to kill Jean were more of a threat than Wolverine who was trying to kill Jean.

Just because she -can- do something doesn't mean she wants to.

What? You're the one who keeps telling me that Jean joined forces with Magneto because she wants to have the freedom to do what she wants but, after joining forces she doesn't have the desire to do anything even though she has the freedom to do things that she previously couldn't do?
Thanks for the laugh because I have no freaking clue what you're rambling on about now.

She was perfectly content with watching her minions do her bidding..

Perfectly content with watching and standing around? How are these actions consistent with what you were saying about Jean wanting freedom earlier? This is very amusing but, I guess it's obvious that you really are you are unintentionally trying to convince me that Jean wanted freedom to do nothing.

There is no indication that she saw the other mutants as minions so I have no idea where you came up with that idea. Also, what was her bidding. The movie gave no indication that Jean gave a rat's ass about what the other brotherhood members were doing while she stood around excercising her new found freedom to do nothing.

It's not "Al-Catraz", it's Alcatraz...It's minor, it's semantics, and it's the same kind of nitpicking I accuse you of doing with this movie, but Jesus Christ it's annoying me

Wow. You're special. You have the unique ability to catch one of my grammatical errors. I'm also special. You misspelled sabertooth a few quotes back. If you get a rise out of this continue to find enjoyment in identifying all of my grammatical errors.

Yes it did make sense, because now she was directly threatened. As a creature of instinct, she lashed out.

No it did not make sense. Jean could have gone crazy when somewhere in the range of 50-100 soilders fired cure needles at her, Magneto, and rest of the mutants but, for some strange reason she does not go crazy in that scene. Her going completely crazy because a handful of nonthreatening soilders who couldn't harm her if she had her eyes closed and her arms tied behind her back makes little sense.

Why did she kill some of her fellow brotherhood members? Why did she destroy virtually everything in site? Why did she not destroy the X-Men? Why did she not kill Wolverine who was a direct threat to her because he wanted to kill her? How does all of this correlate with Jean killing the most
nonthreatening person(Cyclops) she encountered in the whole movie?

No, I think that was a bad idea, and I never claimed the movie to be 100% perfect. I do have my own complaints with it.

If you think this is such a bad idea how come you continue to praise Ratner for all of his ideas while giving him a pass for the horrible ones that he brought to this film yet in the same breathe you ignore Vaughn's good ideas and focus on his bad ones?

See above.

See above.

I think that Storm was the only one really mischaracterized, and then she's been done wrong since the beginning..

Magneto was not an emotionally unstable tactical moron in X1 and X2.

Wolverine was not a leader. He also never displayed any form of love towards Jean in the previous films so I still have no idea what motivated him to try and save Jean.

Cyclops was previously a leader and would never consider abandoning his leadership responsibilities.

Xavier was not a manipulative bastard who gave up on friends while they experience the loss of loved ones.

 

[Theweepeople]

Not all characters get to be fully developed. There are such things as background characters. These were all background characters. They didn't need development.

Oh really. You didn't think it mattered that we don't even get to find out what Callisto's name is until after the credits?

You didn't think it mattered that we don't find out what Psylock'es name is until after the credits?

You didn't think it mattered that we don't get any incite into why Multiple Man immediately joins Magneto's army without reason?

You didn't think it mattered that Arclight's character has zero dialogue in the film?

You didn't think it mattered that Colosus has less lines in X-Men 3 then in X2?

I actually agree with you now on quills not getting character development. The character was so stupid and useless thank god that he barely got any development. I just would like to hear an explanation for why Magneto added a completely useless mutant to his elite force.

Everyone else... I don't see a problem with how little they were used.

Well, if you like seeing characters with more potential getting reduced to mindless thugs with two dimensional personalities then I can see why you feel this way.

Why not? You have to show conflict. The hero can't just go through whooping everyone's ass with no struggle, or else there is no suspense. The hero has to go through turmoil so that there is a real threat.

Why should this happen in a team superherohype called X-Men when there are multiple characters who could all serve a more significant role to the storyline if one oversaturated character hadn't been given so much unnecessary screentime?

Yes.

Magneto thinks that mutants are superior beings. Plain and simple. When Mystique was cured, he showed some remorse for what happened. But at the same time, she was now an inferior creature in his eyes. The way he handled it was not out of character at all.

What remorse? I didn't see him show any grief in that scene or any future scenes for what had happened to Mystique.

Also, Magneto does respect Xavier, even if they have different viewpoints. They were always close friends..

Yes he also warned Xavier to not get in his way in X1. He nearly had Xavier killed in X1. He let Xavier in a very dangerous situation in X2. Close friends my ass. Close friends don't threaten or try to kill each other. There was a mutual respect for each other put that's it.

Much closer than any friendship he shared with Mystique.

I totally disagree. Mystique saved his life by breaking him out of prison and even sacrificed her mutant powers so Eric could keep his and continue his cause. She wouldn't have done those things if Magneto and she weren't the best of friends.

His reaction seemed very appropriate to me - grief over the loss of his friend, but accepting it as a neccesary loss to further the cause of mutantkind.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this because I didn't see what you saw in that scene.

Yes. I have already explained in detail why your idea would not be a smart tactical move,.

You never gave me a good explanation for why it made sense for Magneto to do a job that he and Jean could have done all by themselves.

but you're too hard headed to want to listen..

I think some of you're theories are too simplistic to actually make sense.

Yes. Who was going to prove to be a threat to him? Without the cure, the humans no longer had a weapon against him.

You're thinking is very shortsighted. Destroying the source of the cure would have definitely prevented the humans from making more. However, the creation of multiple cure clinics for mutants across the US suggested that the government had synthesized vast amounts of it from leech. Therefore, the government would have plenty of it to use against renegade mutants even if Leech died.

But he has been beaten by the X-Men before, and obviously they will be standing in his way. He's going to want some kind of defense against them.

What was Magneto's plan to use against other mutants besides the X-Men who might oppose him? The scenes of cerebro in X1 and X2 indicated that world is fillled with many mutants. Many of these mutants weren't going to agree with Magneto's cause. The appointment of Beast to a position in the government suggested that many of the us voters were mutants. How could Magneto hope to fight off a large force of mutants that may join forces with the X-Men with only a limited number of cure needles at his disposal from Alcatraz.

And so what if I did compare it to those films? What is it to you?

What do you mean what is it to me? If you made a controversial statement like that in a forum are you expecting people not to respond?

For the record, I don't believe it's as epic,

I'm glad to know that you're thinking isn't completely warped. Now what was the point of your "What is it to you?" comment?

But I wasn't expecting Return of the King. Just because Kinberg said it, doesn't mean you have to buy into it. Return of the King is on a completely different level, in EVERY aspect of film making. I took an "I'll believe it when I see it" approach to expecting X-Men: The Last Stand to be on the level of Return of the King. I never anticipated it.

I feel comfortable holding people accountable for the things they say.

What we did get I still found to be very powerful and epic.,

I gave up trying to see anything powerful and epic in X3 but it simply doesn't exist.

No, the negative opinions of the film aren't mindless. But the whining and crying is nothing more than acting like a spoiled child who didn't get their way.

The flip side to this is the negative opinions of the X3 haters opinions are nothing more than X3 lovers acting like spoiled children who didn't get their way.

And you never took my opinions seriously anyways (nor the opinions of anyone else with a positive view of the film)..

Since when? I had pleasant and reasonable discussions with you until for completely lossed it in last june. Not once did I refer to your opinions as irrelevant or worthless and you know it.

You blindly dismiss them as impossible lines of thinking.

Now, I do because whenever we have a dialogue you act confrontational towards me and others that don't agree with. You haven't changed one bit since last January and your bitter attitude towards people who were simply asking for you to back up your claim about Vaughn getting canned by Fox proves your a thin skinned jerk who can't take any form of criticism.

You've never taken my views seriously,.

Are you serious? Can you provide proof that I never took your views seriously since our first encounters of last summer? It's quite pathetic that you have to resort to telling lies about me again to try and prove a point. Although, it's not surprising. I saw a few excerpts of things you said about me while I had you on my ignore list and it was obvious that you were using that as an opportunity to to hurt my reputation.

I can provide a link that proves you were a complete ass towards me and others in the " if you don't like the movie post here thread" during January of this year.

so don't expect the same courtesy in return.,.

After witnessing your behavior in January I never expected you to act courteous towards me again so this is not a new revelation from you.

What good can possibly come from your tactics?

First of all, it is very entertaining to bash the film. Secondly I'm holding the people who are responsible for their lies and blunders.

Your only purpose is to take people down - those who made the film,

See above post.

and those who have a positive view of the film.,

Correction. I have a desire to take down X3 lovers like you who wine, get confrontational, and see every criticism of your movie as a personal attack on yourselves.

It is not constructive criticism in the least bit..,

That's called an opinion. I have a different one.

It's crying like a spoiled child because mommy wouldn't buy you a candy bar...,

Something that should feel very natural for you.

Your actions say all that need to be said.

Your actions in January revealed your true colors. I'm not apologizing for anything and you won't either. I guess we have something in common.

No, it's quite possible for me.

Well, actions speak louder than words. Since last January your actions have spoke something contrary to what you just said so I don't expect anything different from you.

I just need to be in a conversation with someone who isn't going to act like a spoiled brat when things don't go exactly their way, which is exactly how you've acted with all of your "commentaries" to try to bring this film down.

You need to be in a conversation with someone who doesn't act like a spoiled brat yet, you keep getting into conversations with people you think are spoiled brats? There's nothing embarrassing about admitting you're incapable of ignoring the posts of people who you think are spoiled brats.

What you do does no good for anyone. It's just a bunch of complaining that gets nobody anywhere.

That's really interesting Nell because I've yet to get a warning from any of the mods about my behavior in the X-Men 3 threads. Go figure.

Well, the xverse forums which had the Penn and Kinberg interviews are shut down. At least those particular sections of the forum.

Nice excuse. So you're too lazy to look up the information. It took me awhile to find all of Kinberg's ridiculous quotes but, I still found them. Anway, you still haven't addressed the initial outrageous claim many of us called you on. You said Fox canned Vaughn's ass and still have not provided a source.

But, just as LastSunrise always says towards me... if your opinion is really that strong, then what I say about Matthew Vaughn shouldn't matter, right?

Whatever. I don't care if you bash Vaughn as long there isn't an inconsistency in your reasoning behind disliking him. What you have done is use a double standard to rationalize your dislike for him while praising Ratner and you made a statement about him that simply isn't true. Vaughn was not fired by Fox and you have no proof to back up your claim. You also have shown little interest in even trying to find sources that would validate your claim.

And you did the exact same thing, recently claiming the "original" script was quite dynamic... yet it includes much of the same that you come on here now complaining about. Why was it dynamic under Vaughn, but trash under Ratner? Sounds hypocritical to me.

Congratulations on misquoting me again. Not once have I said that Ratner's script was trash and Vaughn's script was great. I had issues with both scripts because both scripts kept had most of the core elements. What I did say was that the original script that was released in May of 2005 on the ain't it cool news site sounded like it was the most dynamic of the 3 movies. How that information went into your mind and got translated into something different is quite baffling?

I've stated no lies.

You have until you provide the link that backs up your claim about Fox canning Vaughn. Of course I would probably be waiting for the link for the rest of my life if I actually believed you had this information.

I have stated the reasons why I do not want Matthew Vaughn anywhere NEAR the X-Men, and why I am glad he left. If you don't want to believe the things I say about him, that's your perogotive. I know what I have read about him, I know the things that he has said, and I know how I view the things that he said.

I do believe the things you've stated about him. I'm just still wondering why you don't see the flaws in the reasoning you use to justify disliking Vaughn and being pro-Ratner inspite of the fact that both directors worked on a similar script.

You have stated you weren't around before X-Men: The Last Stand came out. Don't act like it was peaches and cream around here. It wasn't.

I never said it was peaches and cream. I also, remember that during this time when I was an observer your posts had a rational and pleasant tone to them.

The same arguements that are going on now, were going on back then, because people were upset with aspects of the script. People were criticising Kinberg, Penn, and Ratner, because of their bodies of works previous to X-Men: The Last Stand. The original AICN script review was negative, and everyone followed with that like lemmings. I was one of the only optimistic ones around these parts, myself and a few others. For the most part, there was nothing but doubt and concern over the production of this film, and people upset with the script and the filmmakers involved. I never once got into heated arguements like this with those people that had doubts. Because even though we disagreed, everyone kept it civil. Except for TheVileOne. And kurosawa. But they are a different matter altogether.

That's nice. Now how does this negate the level of contempt you and other X3 lovers had for the X3 haters again?

"I already responded to this" needs to become your catchphrase,.

After all the stimulating conversations I've had with you I can't believe you forgot what my classic catchphrase is. I'll give you a hint. The words "bad filmmaking" and "poor directing" are included in it.

because you do it anytime anyone disagrees with you as your way of dismissing their arguement completely.

You're wrong. I do it when simpletons like you believe that repeating the same refuted arguments over and over again makes them valid.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

So if you don't know what drastic changes(if any) were made then I ask you the same question again. How can you hate Vaughn so much and praise Ratner when there is little proof the script used by Ratner was significantly different from Vaughn's?

Well I can ask you the same question, because you recently stated that the script under Vaughn was much more dynamic.

How can the script be so much more dynamic when it keeps all of the same core elements in tact? I guess we're both hypocrits.

Laughable ideas that may or may not have been used in the script? Practically every sci-fi movie that has ever made had horrible storyboard ideas that didn't make it into the movie. The original storyboard alien design for the film predator was hideous. Fortunately, it re-designed at the last minute. Should we call the production team of that classic sci-fi film morons for coming up with an idea that had no effect on the finished product of the film?

Well, since Matthew Vaughn didn't make the film, all I have to judge off of is how he spoke about the film, and the ideas that he had that came out. Ratner had some bad ideas too, yes, but I don't think they were as bad as what Vaughn mentioned.

I think it's interesting that you find these ideas to be laughable when Ratner came up with the following horrible ideas:

Xavier appearing after the screen credits. This negates the emotional impact of Xavier's death. Also, who in the hell's body did Xavier go into. One that looks exactly like his?

Replacing two popular brotherhood mutant members(Avalanche/Scarlet Witch) with Quills/Arclight.

Magneto and Mystique playing chess in a park. WTH?!!!

Magneto getting his powers back. That makes the whole mutant cure conflict irrelevant.

Funny how I didn't see you go into a fit about how idiot all these ideas are? This is also another display of hypocrisy.

What if I don't have a problem with those ideas?

What if I don't think those ideas are as bad as the stated ideas from Vaughn?

Or is that not an acceptable possibility in your eyes?

I don't remember too much about Stacy X. Please explain to me what was horrible about that idea.

You don't see a problem with a character who is a hooker, and who's mutant power is to secrete pheremones to seduce people?

What I know of the danger room storyboard didn't bother me. The room produces holograms so why do you have a problem with Kitty and Bobby appearing to get incinerated.

Because that's not a hologram. That is an actual physical attack upon someone.

The idea of Leech in the backpack originally sounded stupid. This was one of Vaughn's weakest ideas because being exposed to Leech could have lowered Wolverine's immune system mutant power, thereby exposing him to metal poisening. However, after carefully considering this idea if Vaughn designed Leech's powers in a way that gave him more control then what he had in Ratner's X3 then it could make some sense. If Leech had the ability to focus his powers than he could depower any mutant that got close to Wolverine for a short period of time. The extent of the damage taken by Wolverine would depend on how much control Leech had over his powers.

It's still a downright laughable idea.

What amazes me about this complaint is some of the same people who have a problem with Logan being exposed to Leech had no problem with the extent of the damage he took during Jean going berserk at Al-catraz. Wolverine had never stayed conscious while taking a beating like that in the previous movies nor in X3. Rogue knocked him out twice in X1. A couple of darts almost knocked him out in X2. A bullet knocked him out in X2. In X3 jean knocks Wolverine out by simply knocking him against a wall. Juggernaut nearly incapacitated Wolverine twice with a throw, a kick, and a few punches. Magneto knocked Wolverine out at his base. After witnessing how badly lower classed mutants can hurt logan could you please explain to me how a godlike mutant wasn't even able to make logan wince while ripping of chunks of his flesh

You are right. His power surge gave me no problems. Other characters throughout the trilogy have had these convenient power surges. Like Rogue, who knocked out Wolverine a couple times with her powers. Put her boyfriend into a coma by barely touching lips. But she can hold onto Pyro for a good amount of time, and he barely drops to his knees.

I already explained this to you. There is nothing wrong with being pro-Ratner. What I have a problem with is you being pro-Ratner and anti-Vaughn when Ratner took the core elements of the script that Vaughn was going to use. That's hypocritical.

But I am pro-Ratner because, in my opinion, Ratner gave us a better film than what I believe we would have gotten under Vaughn.

Don't be concerned about my feelings. I was comfortable about my opinions of X3 a year ago. I'm more comfortable a year later.

And you don't need to concern yourself with my feelings either.

As I previous said this is not what we are debating.

That sure is what it appears to look like.

The script sounded like the most exciting of the 3 movies. Unfortunately, the excution was flawed and the energy of the script didn't translate well.

Flawed? Yes. But I believe it translated VERY well.

If that's the way you feel so be it. I was not too impressed with any of the sequences. All of them had too many flaws for me and none felt epic. By the way I thought you told me you were convinced that the best action sequence in the entire triology was with Nighcrawler at the beginning of X2?

No, I've never even believed the Nightcrawler sequence was the best sequence in X2, let alone the trilogy.

What made Wolverine the obvious choice? We already had two movies about him and this story was supposed to be about Cyclops and Jean?

Well, obviously Cyclops deserved a larger role, a frontline role, and that's what was being built up in X2.

Wolverine is the obvious choice, because he is THE MAN. I'm not a big Wolverine fan at all, but I have never felt like he was over exposed. I understand, he's the guy when it comes to X-Men, and he was going to be the front runner. The Fantastic 4 comparison is invalid, because none of the F4 characters are as recognizable as Wolverine. None of them have the same draw and appeal to the general public as Wolverine does with X-Men.

Why did Storm suddenly turn into a frontline character after this character got little screen time and dialogue in the previous films? If you're validating Storm's role in X3 due to her lack of screentime in other X-films then other underdeveloped characters in the previous films had just as much right to get more development in X3.

I always felt that, despite some questionable characterization, Storm was pretty much always a face of the franchise. Perhaps it was just because Halle Berry was the actress playing her, but I always felt like Storm always did have some draw power. Plus, it's freaking Storm, one of the most important and recognizable characters of X-Men. Of course she deserved a major role.

Correction. Jean got tons of meaningless screentime and Magneto had plenty of bizzare screentime that caused me to question the irrevelance of his actions.

In your opinion, but it is not point for "correction", because I didn't see it the way you did.

Having confusing and irrelevant screentime for 4 characters still doesn't negate the lack of development for all the other characters(Mutants and Humans(What was the significance of Trask and Dr. Moira MacTaggert's roles in the film?))

I didn't "confuse" anything for anything, and that is the exact attitude I am talking about. You obviously cannot deal with the fact that I saw things differently than you, and feel yourself to be superior to my own views of the movie.

Of course. The title is part of the crappy movie.

Um, the title is the last thing that should be used to judge a movie.

I don't remember seeing a war in X3. I did see a poorly planned out pharmaceutical raid that ended with a short and silly looking skirmish.

K, then you weren't looking at the movie. It's easy to dismiss it as just a "pharmaceutical raid" to make it sound meaningless.

This still doesn't address this significant problem I and many others have with Wolverine believing he is in love with Jean throughout the whole damn movie.

And what is wrong with that?

I have felt that certain feelings of mine were "love", when in being in similar situations to Wolverine. Emotions are irrational, and sometimes you truly can believe you love somebody when it is not "logical" to have those emotions for them.

What you are describing sounds like lust to me. I have plenty of experience with that. Teenagers and young adults experience these feelings all the time after initially meeting someone. However, it is very uncommon for mature men and Women to experience. Unless Logan didn't go through puberty I find it inconceivable that someone as old and well traveled as him could truely believe he was in love with Jean after their initial meeting.

Uncommon for mature men and women to experience lust?!

Okay...

In X2 it becomes even more apparent that logan is not in love with Jean. If Logan was in love with Jean then he would have her best interests in mind. The fact that he tries to kiss Jean and convince her in the forest that he can be her man while cyclops is missing and probably in danger shows Logan is only concerned about his wishes. Then a few scenes later when Logan encounters a disguised mystique his desire to have sex with Jean is obviously so great that it clouds the judgement of his mutant senses.

The fact that he is only concerned about his wishes is kind of the whole point. He loves her, or at least feels like he does, and he wants her to love him. She never does. That's kind of the point.

This doesn't address what I was complaining about. Logan knew the location of his base. It didn't matter if he heard Magneto's speech. It made no sense to let Wolverine go if he could tell the government and X-Men about the exact location of his base.

Okay, and like I said, maybe this is one of those instances where you are just thinking into it way too hard.

Also, I don't understand how Magneto could be totally callous towards a friend(Mystique) who got cured, then feel remorse for an enemy who was once a friend(Xavier), and then give mercy to someone who was always an enemy(Logan) he had no respect for. All I ask for is consistency. The Magneto in X3 acted like he had multiple personalities.

I found it to make perfect sense.

Of course all scripts have flaws. Singer films have many of them. I just personally think that X3 has the most flaws of the X-films.

I personally believe that as well. I just don't believe they were detrimental to the outcome of the movie.

This is not a plot inconsistency and I already gave a rational explanation for this last year. Magneto could have found out about Rogue's manifestation of her powers through the internet, newspaper, or tv. After hearing about this he probably sent Mystique to her town to extract information about her family, condition, and her whereabouts. After finding out where Rogue was going she informed Magneto and he sent Sabertooth to track her. It's pretty obvious that Sabertooth was not tracking logan. Logan happened to be in the same location that Rogue was being tracked Sabertooth in. That's not an annoying plot inconsistency. It's called a plot element that was necessary for the story to go forward. All movies have these elements and I don't have a problem with them. Not having Rogue meet Wolverine in Canada would have removed Logan from the whole story.

It's not a rational explanation when it's not even remotley established to be the case at all. You are only making assumptions as to what may or may not have happened. Since it never was even hinted to have happened in the movie, I have just as valid an arguement that Sabretooth was scratching his butt the entire time, and that he was pissed off at Wolverine for disturbing him while he was taking a crap behind the tree.

If anything, since it was not established, I have a stronger arguement for this whole situation being a falacy (not the Sabretooth crapping behind a tree, but the convenience of everyone knowing where everyone is) because there is absolutley zero evidence in the movie to support your theory.

Actually, you're wrong. In order to find out some of these things all Xavier would have to do was use cerebro to read Magneto's mind. He might have found out some of these things after quickly probing Eric's mind at the mutant political registration conference. Xavier was probably able to determine that Eric was sending Sabertooth to find a mutant in Canada. You're right that Xavier isn't on Cerebro 24/7 but, during the times that he was on he could have temporarily tracked Sabertooth's locations. While tracking Sabertooth's locations Xavier could also use cerebro to check these general areas for mutants. If Sabertooth happened to be roaming around that small town for Rogue, where Wolverine was, and while Xavier checks this area for mutants then Xavier could have easily suspected that Wolverine was the mutant Sabertooth was after. There is nothing illogical about this.

Not established, you can't just make things up and say that's what happened when there is absolutley zero evidence to support your theory.

I don't see these as falacies. I see these as a few coincidences and plot elements that were necessary for the story to move forward.

And why can't you afford the same liberty to X-Men: The Last Stand when it does the same thing. Obvious double standard here.

Experience tells me this is not always a positive way to think. That theme is a bit too vague for my tastes.

What's not positive about it? What's not positive about aspiring to be who you want to be? I think it's a lot more positive to confirming to your mutation just because Storm wants you to.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

How does this theme apply to the real world? I can't think of an exact context in our society where this theme would work.

How about the whole element of "I don't agree with your beliefs, but I will fight to the death for your right to express them"?

It's basically the entire foundation that the United States of America is built upon.

This is all relative. Rogue didn't seem to be too unhappy while being around other mutants in X1 and X2. You may not agree with the theme of "give up who you are to fit in" but, it is just as relevant as the theme you believe in. Overall, I still think this movie has too many themes. Some are okay. Some are confusing. Too many of theme contradict each other. I wanted this movie to have a clear and concise theme that can be applied to our society and I still don't see it.

K, well I am perfectly content with the "theme-age" of the film.

Yes I've heard this before and I undestand this. I also, understand that inspite of reations and instincts not being formulaic or mathematical it is still possible to notice basic patterns in human behavior. Unfortunately, one of the few patterns I was able to discern with Jean was that the deaths of the people she killed were dictated by Fox's studio executives. Another pattern I was able to identify was the lives of the people Jean spared were also dictated by Fox'es studio executives. Jean barely displayed any discernible patterns in human behavior that would indicate her inteligence was greater than a toddler.

Okay, so you don't accept it, and I do. K, we can move on now.

Where's the consistency? She reacts like an animal around Cyclops to the extent that it kills him but, doesn't around Wolverine even though that scene with Logan appears to be more emotional(Which makes no sense.) because Logan and Jean are about to have sex.

I honestly have never been able to come up with a reasonable reason as to why Phoenix killed Cyclops. He posed no threat to her what so ever. It was not an "accident", because Jean's face in that scene shows clear intent. That was one death that just wreaked of studio politics.

I have no problems with her reactions towards everyone else. They made sense to me.

You've got to be kidding me. Jean read the minds of Xavier(Who meant her no physical harm) during the middle of the film and Wolverine(who meant to kill Jean) at the end and she thought Xavier was more threatening? That's believable.

Who says she read their minds? Just because she -could- doesn't mean she -did-.

If Jean was truely as animalistic and instinctual to the extent that you are suggesting then she wouldn't be able to discriminate between who was good and bad. The moment Magneto would try to convince her to join his army she would attack him.

Just because she's animalistic and instinctual doesn't mean the humanistic factor is completely gone.

Hogwash. First of all Jean became free after she killed the only telepathic threat that had been trying to hold her back for decades. Secondly, Magneto was clearly trying to control her and Jean must have known this since she is a telepath. She had no problem realizing this when Xavier tried to control her a second time. In fact Jean's behavior towards Magneto after showing her the cure weapon and needles suggests
that she doesn't trust Magneto and there is no reason for her to stay because there is nothing Magneto can offer her that she can't obtain on her own. Why did she stay with the brotherhood after coming to this realization?

I've already explained this. Like always, you are just looking for reasons to disagree, and to hate the movie. You obviously don't accept this aspect, and I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

If you think this is such a bad idea how come you continue to praise Ratner for all of his ideas while giving him a pass for the horrible ones that he brought to this film yet in the same breathe you ignore Vaughn's good ideas and focus on his bad ones?

Actually, I don't give Ratner a pass. I have expressed my problems with the film many, MANY times in the past. I just don't believe that expressing distaste with something involves the immature and childish methods you go to to get your point across.

Magneto was not an emotionally unstable tactical moron in X1 and X2.

Nor was he in X-Men: The Last Stand.

Wolverine was not a leader. He also never displayed any form of love towards Jean in the previous films so I still have no idea what motivated him to try and save Jean.

Um, yes he did show love towards Jean....

Cyclops was previously a leader and would never consider abandoning his leadership responsibilities.

Because he's NEVER done anything like that in the comics...

Xavier was not a manipulative bastard who gave up on friends while they experience the loss of loved ones.

Nor was he in X-Men: The Last Stand

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Oh really. You didn't think it mattered that we don't even get to find out what Callisto's name is until after the credits?

Well yea it would have been nice, but it didn't bother me.

You didn't think it mattered that we don't find out what Psylock'es name is until after the credits?

She was in what, 2 scenes?!

You didn't think it mattered that we don't get any incite into why Multiple Man immediately joins Magneto's army without reason?

Yes I do think it mattered - one of my problems with the film. And I have expressed this numerous times.

You didn't think it mattered that Arclight's character has zero dialogue in the film?

Nope. Sabretooth and Lady Deathstrike hardly had any dialogue either.

You didn't think it mattered that Colosus has less lines in X-Men 3 then in X2?

Nope. I would have liked to have seen more Colossus, but he wasn't really a part of the story anyways.

I actually agree with you now on quills not getting character development. The character was so stupid and useless thank god that he barely got any development. I just would like to hear an explanation for why Magneto added a completely useless mutant to his elite force.

We've offered you explanations. You just don't want to hear them.

Well, if you like seeing characters with more potential getting reduced to mindless thugs with two dimensional personalities then I can see why you feel this way.

I don't like it, I just realize that not everyone will be able to get their spotlight in a movie. There are more important things to deal with than making sure that Callisto has her spotlight.

Why should this happen in a team superherohype called X-Men when there are multiple characters who could all serve a more significant role to the storyline if one oversaturated character hadn't been given so much unnecessary screentime?

You obviously don't understand how storytelling works then, and how there needs to be core, central focus characters that the story revolves around. The comics may switch around their core characters, but even all of the different comic arcs have the characters those particular arcs focus on.

What remorse? I didn't see him show any grief in that scene or any future scenes for what had happened to Mystique.

Then you obviously weren't paying attention.

Emotions aren't always expressed through words. It doesn't need to be said "I am sad because Mystique is cured" to show he feels that way. Look at his face, and his reaction to what happened. Some things are implied. You obviously need everything spelled out for you in big bright letters for you to comprehend it though.

Yes he also warned Xavier to not get in his way in X1. He nearly had Xavier killed in X1. He let Xavier in a very dangerous situation in X2. Close friends my ass. Close friends don't threaten or try to kill each other. There was a mutual respect for each other put that's it.

When Xavier got in the way, Magneto saw him as a neccesary loss.

Magneto never even tried to kill him. He sabotaged Cerebro, but it didn't kill him. It incapacitated him for awhile in an attempt to sideline him, and take him out of the picture. He never tried to kill him in X2. At that time, he didn't know the dam was being destroyed. He left him there to continue to do his bidding, he didn't know Cerebro was going to cave in on itself.

I totally disagree. Mystique saved his life by breaking him out of prison and even sacrificed her mutant powers so Eric could keep his and continue his cause. She wouldn't have done those things if Magneto and she weren't the best of friends.

Doesn't mean they are as close as Magneto and Xavier.

You mean to tell me you haven't done things for a friend who wasn't your closest friend?

A good example I can use from real life - I have a friend who is pregnant. When she first found out she was pregnant, her fiance` was constantly out of town for work... gone for up to a week at a time, almost every week for about a month or so, coming home just for 1 day of the week or so before he had to leave again. While he was gone, I was constantly over there, taking care of her, doing things for her, giving her rides to places she needed to be, picking up her daughter from school.

She is a very close friend to me. She is not my closest friend. I do things for her, and take care of her, because I love her, and she is a very good friend. But that doesn't automatically make her my closest friend. Her and I don't go back the way I go back with my other friends. Why can't the same be true for Magneto and Mystique? She's a friend, he's gone out of his way to help her (mostly for his own benefit...), but he still has a closer friend in Xavier.

You never gave me a good explanation for why it made sense for Magneto to do a job that he and Jean could have done all by themselves.

No, it wasn't good because it disagrees with your negative view of the film... that's why you say it wasn't good.

I think some of you're theories are too simplistic to actually make sense.

NONE of your theories make any sense... they are built on nothing but overanalyzing, assuming things are true that aren't even established, and double standards.

You're thinking is very shortsighted. Destroying the source of the cure would have definitely prevented the humans from making more. However, the creation of multiple cure clinics for mutants across the US suggested that the government had synthesized vast amounts of it from leech. Therefore, the government would have plenty of it to use against renegade mutants even if Leech died.

And it was shown just how much of a threat those cure clinics were....

What was Magneto's plan to use against other mutants besides the X-Men who might oppose him? The scenes of cerebro in X1 and X2 indicated that world is fillled with many mutants. Many of these mutants weren't going to agree with Magneto's cause. The appointment of Beast to a position in the government suggested that many of the us voters were mutants. How could Magneto hope to fight off a large force of mutants that may join forces with the X-Men with only a limited number of cure needles at his disposal from Alcatraz.

The world has lots of mutants, yes, but how many of those mutants have secret underground vigilante groups?

Well, there's the X-Men....

What do you mean what is it to me? If you made a controversial statement like that in a forum are you expecting people not to respond?

The point is, if I believe it is on that level of quality, then it is of no concern to you because it is my opinion, and you don't -need- to respond. Any attempt to respond and try to tell me that I'm wrong only goes to show that you cannot accept any opinion that differs from your nset standards.

I'm glad to know that you're thinking isn't completely warped. Now what was the point of your "What is it to you?" comment?

Warped? Thanks for proving to me that you have ZERO tolerance for opinions that differ from your own. You have proven to me that this entire arguement has been a waste of time, because if I believe something that you don't, to you, my thinking is "warped"...

With that, this conversation is done, I will continue this no further until you show you know what it means to accept different viewpoints.

 

[Seen]

So many quotes, so many quotes...

 

[flavio_lebeau]

So many quotes, so many quotes...

Dejà Vu.

 

[Abaddon]

No, it was a boy, during the mansion raid he is shot with an electrical burst but fires it back at the soldier. Must be a male electro mutant, maybe Bevatron or someone like that. That was in one of the early X2 drafts published online.

I remember people saying it was Jubilee. It was probably mentioned in the novelization.

this is the scene I was thinking of

 

[BMM]

^ I never cared for the way her power looked in that scene. If that is the way it was going to look in the theatrical release, then I'm glad it was cut.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Dejà Vu.

It's Guardball all over again

 

[xii22_loop]

So many quotes, so many quotes...

ahhh i knoww i feel dizzzy from all the quotes omg

 

[Sagittarius1]

i will never forget/forgive FOX and producer Laurie Donner for forcing
Matthews outta the way and giving XMEN 3 to Brett Raettner to screw it all up.

Fox has to know the vast public opinion of Xmen 3 - especially among diehard Xmen fans. It's not considered a classic, its considered a unforgiveable disaster.
of course it's got it's opening weekend box office record (ultimately smashed by Pirates 3 ) purely off the popularity and past success of the Xmen films, but as a stand alone film, it was done so horribly !!

After all this time, i still wonder to day " what if some other director would have done X-3, instead of Raettner ? " ..........

FOX really let X-fans down big time !

 

[Theweepeople]

i will never forget/forgive FOX and producer Laurie Donner for forcing
Matthews outta the way and giving XMEN 3 to Brett Raettner to screw it all up.

Fox has to know the vast public opinion of Xmen 3 - especially among diehard Xmen fans. It's not considered a classic, its considered a unforgiveable disaster.
of course it's got it's opening weekend box office record (ultimately smashed by Pirates 3 ) purely off the popularity and past success of the Xmen films, but as a stand alone film, it was done so horribly !!

After all this time, i still wonder to day " what if some other director would have done X-3, instead of Raettner ? " ..........

FOX really let X-fans down big time !

Agreed. For me X3 was the biggest disappointing movie I've ever seen. The movie was at least 30 minutes too short. There were way too many characters. There were completely useless characters. The film had no clear theme. It had two endings that ruined the overall conflict of the film and took away the emotional impact of one character. The movie took one of the most popular X-Men stories and completely screwed it up. The movie took an overexplosed character and overexplosed this character even further through elimating an important role of one character in the worst way possible.

The positive things that came out of X3:

It is still one of the most fun movies for me to ridicule. I love hating this film.

I will never trust 20th century Fox again to deliver a good sci-fi film. I saved money on not seeing the FF2 crapfest and plan to do the same for AVP2.

I won't be wasting money on any more Brett Ratner sci-fi movies again(Will he ever have the opportunity to make another bad sci-fi movie?) Actually, I probably won't be seeing anymore of his movies. That includes Rush Hour 3 which is unperforming at the boxoffice.t: There is no way that movie makes back it's money domestically.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I saved money on not seeing the FF2 crapfest and plan to do the same for AVP2.

How can you call it a crapfest when you haven't seen it?

Way to be objective and unbias there buddy.

 

[Theweepeople]

How can you call it a crapfest when you haven't seen it?

I can call it a crapfest because it's my freedom to do that. Just like it's my freedom to bash X3 in this forum despite your displeasure.

Way to be objective and unbias there buddy.

I'm quite objective. Fox has not made a sci-fi movie that I enjoyed in 4 years. Why should I trust them now? Furthermore, I have friends who saw FF2 and they all told me it sucked. The reviews of the film on rotten tomatoes were better than the first but they were still rotten.

I've gotten used to you acting like an ignorant confrontational jerk towards me so I knew it was only a matter of time before you would say something trivial again.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Hola Wee,

It's great to see you again. Great to read your informative posts after a sabbatical from the forums on my part. Needless to say I can see certain elements of the forum haven't changed, however, I am glad to see you're sticking to your guns and providing some intelligent commentary with your views.

I work at a theater so I happened to catch FF2 for free(great to be a theater employee eh?). I felt FF has always been a bit more light hearted compared to X-Men or Daredevil, although I do appreciate Tim Story trying to add a sense of seriousness into the FF mythology. It was very refreshing to see a much more serious threat and darker story for the characters themselves.

Part of my problem with FF2 is that Fox, Story, and the writers didn't really try to take it some place. It seemed that they opened a few doors and quickly shut them without any proper resolution. It seems Fox films have a tendency to be horribly edited to so they can have a shorter runtime, horrible dialogue, and deviations from the characters themselves.

I feel the only thing they got right in FF2 was The Silver Surfer himself.

With that said and done, all I can say is that X3 is a film that was mishandled and didn't live up to my expectations as a fan. Sure, maybe it was naive of me to expect an epic emotional film that would satisfy me as a comic book fan and as a fan of film in general. All I can say is that the only way for the mistakes to be fixed is to completely restart the franchise and move the material away from Fox studios.

Batman did it, James Bond did it, The Hulk is somewhat doing it, The Punisher is going through it right now and LGF pissed me off with not moving forward with the project, and so forth.

Let's put it in perspective. In an ideal comic book/film world X3 would've been 2 hours and 20 minutes, perhaps 2 hours and 30 minutes right? Cyclops would've lived, the action would've been emotional and epic and on a much larger scale, and the themes would've remained serious and on a darker scale as well. In that ideal world we would've had a great X-Men film and it's a shame none of the above happened, however, never say never when it comes to a restart of a franchise.

 

[Theweepeople]

Hola Wee,

It's great to see you again. Great to read your informative posts after a sabbatical from the forums on my part. Needless to say I can see certain elements of the forum haven't changed, however, I am glad to see you're sticking to your guns and providing some intelligent commentary with your views.

Thanks man. I hope you enjoyed the last debate I had with Nell. That was very amusing to say the least.

It's been over a year since X3 came out and I still have serious issues with the movie. People have given explanations for some of my complaints but, most of them are flawed and inconsistent. Two of the main issues I still won't except are Wolverine's motivations for going after Jean and Jean's motivation for joining the brotherhood. I keep hearing that Wolverine loved Jean but, that is not believable. There is no evidence that he loved Jean in X1 and X2 so how could he love the Jean in X3 who was a shell of her former self. Furthermore, it's not believable that lust would have influenced Wolverine to try and save Jean. The friendship factor is somewhat believable however, that would make all the other X-Men who didn't try to save Jean heartless.

I've yet to hear a theory that makes Jean Grey's decision to join the brotherhood believable. Some people have suggested that Jean joined because she wanted to be free and it was part instinctual. This makes no sense because Jean became free after she killed the professor. Secondly, why didn't Jean immediately and instinctually exercise her new freedom after joining the brotherhood. An animal that had been caged up for over 30 years wouldn't have reacted that way. It appears as though Jean wanted the freedom to do nothing after she kills Xavier.

Part of my problem with FF2 is that Fox, Story, and the writers didn't really try to take it some place. It seemed that they opened a few doors and quickly shut them without any proper resolution. It seems Fox films have a tendency to be horribly edited to so they can have a shorter runtime, horrible dialogue, and deviations from the characters themselves.

I feel the only thing they got right in FF2 was The Silver Surfer himself..

My knowledge of this information is part of the reason why I know my decision to not see FF2 isn't biased. A biased person wouldn't have given seeing FF2 a second thought. I had an open mind about this movie after seeing how crappy X3 turned. I got very excited after seeing the intial trailer in December. Then a feeling of deja vu hit me in april of this year. A rumour about a poorly reviewed screening of FF2 was released on Ain't it cool news. Fox immediately responded by calling the review bogus(I could swear the same thing happened with X-Men 3).

Then a month later some awful news came out about Galactus being a storm cloud was released on ain't it cool news. Fox and Avi Arad both publicly claimed that this was not accurate.(I could swear similar things happened with X-Men 3)

Then a rumour about the run time being only 90 minutes came out on Ain't it cool news. Fox responded by claiming the film was at least 11 minutes longer.(I could swear a similar thing happened with X-Men 3)

Finally, an ain't it cool news contributer named Memflix posted a very negative review of FF2 a few weeks before it came out and Fox got pissed. They filed a lawsuit against the theater Memflix worked for and he got fired. That was really bizzare. I had never heard of a studio going out of their way to get a reviewer fired simply because they didn't like a review.

After all of this I still hadn't completely ruled out seeing FF2 in the theater. My final decision came after what my friends told me, the unfavorable reviews on rotten tomatoes, and the colossal second weekend dropoff(65%(X3's was 67%)).

In retrospect, I can confidently say that there was nothing biased about my decision in choosing not to see FF2.

Batman did it, James Bond did it, The Hulk is somewhat doing it, The Punisher is going through it right now and LGF pissed me off with not moving forward with the project, and so forth.

Agreed. I think it will happen some day. A few years ago I remember reading that Fox will eventually lose the rights to X-Men somewhere around 2020. Hopefully, we won't have to wait that long for a reboot. I wouldn't be suprised if Fox gives the rights back to Marvel in about 5 years because they can't keep making spinoff films. Wolverine is the only spinoff that has any chance at being successful and that won't become a franchise.

Let's put it in perspective. In an ideal comic book/film world X3 would've been 2 hours and 20 minutes, perhaps 2 hours and 30 minutes right? Cyclops would've lived, the action would've been emotional and epic and on a much larger scale, and the themes would've remained serious and on a darker scale as well. In that ideal world we would've had a great X-Men film and it's a shame none of the above happened, however, never say never when it comes to a restart of a franchise.

Don't fret. The reboot will come. Either with Marvel in control or Tom Rothman not in control of 20th century Fox.

 

[X-Maniac]

Two of the main issues I still won't except are Wolverine's motivations for going after Jean and Jean's motivation for joining the brotherhood. I keep hearing that Wolverine loved Jean but, that is not believable. There is no evidence that he loved Jean in X1 and X2 so how could he love the Jean in X3 who was a shell of her former self. Furthermore, it's not believable that lust would have influenced Wolverine to try and save Jean. The friendship factor is somewhat believable however, that would make all the other X-Men who didn't try to save Jean heartless.

I think you are missing the important point here that Logan felt a huge empathy with Jean/Phoenix. He had his memories wiped, part of his mind deadened, leaving him with nightmares, leaving him a shadow of his former self, on the run until the X-Men found him. Regardless of whether he volunteered for the adamantium procedure, he had part of his mind taken away. Then he finds out that Xavier had done the same thing to Jean, deadening part of her mind...and he knew fully well what would happen. 'When you cage the beast, the beast gets angry' is what he warns Xavier about. Wolverine's primal fury (the berserker rage) is somewhat akin to the fury of the Phoenix in the movie. Wolverine obviously feels a great sympathy and empathy with Jean. We don't know how much the other X-Men know about what Xavier did...but we do know that Logan knew the awful truth. This does explain his behaviour in the movie.

I've yet to hear a theory that makes Jean Grey's decision to join the brotherhood believable. Some people have suggested that Jean joined because she wanted to be free and it was part instinctual. This makes no sense because Jean became free after she killed the professor. Secondly, why didn't Jean immediately and instinctually exercise her new freedom after joining the brotherhood. An animal that had been caged up for over 30 years wouldn't have reacted that way. It appears as though Jean wanted the freedom to do nothing after she kills Xavier

It made more sense for her to be with Magneto than it would have done for her to fly off somewhere on her own and be removed from the narrative thrust of the movie. If she had left on her own after destroying Xavier, how then would she be brought back into the movie? If she were on her own, up in the mountains or wherever, what would make her come back and have a destructive spree?

I think it looks pretty obvious in the movie that Jean is numb with shock and grief over what the Phoenix part of her mind has done to Xavier. She has destroyed Cyclops and Xavier, so going back to the mansion and swishing into the kitchen to make a coffee isn't really an option. Even if Jean wanted (and was able to stay in control long enough) to have the mental blocks reinstated, there would be little chance without Xavier there to do it. We aren't made aware of other telepaths of Xavier's capability. Magneto's cause - freedom, mutant rights, anti-control/cure - seems an attractive option.

But I agree it might have been handled and depicted differently. The Phoenix could have taken over full control of Jean's mind after destroying Xavier and willingly agreed to join Magneto's cause, declaring the Jean Grey persona to be dead forever. Phoenix would have then been a malevolent being who helped Magneto get his army to Alcatraz, helped move the bridge, protected the army when the bridge fell and lashed out at the military. But, given the enormous power of the Phoenix, she would need to have been temporarily knocked out of the battle at some point, as she had the power to end it all there and then. In the comics, Beast leaps and places a mental scrambler device on Jean (similar to the one Stryker placed on Xavier in X2) so we'd need something like that to happen for a while at the final battle, in order for other characters to shine.

 

[Theweepeople]

I think you are missing the important point here that Logan felt a huge empathy with Jean/Phoenix. He had his memories wiped, part of his mind deadened, leaving him with nightmares, leaving him a shadow of his former self, on the run until the X-Men found him. Regardless of whether he volunteered for the adamantium procedure, he had part of his mind taken away. Then he finds out that Xavier had done the same thing to Jean, deadening part of her mind...and he knew fully well what would happen. 'When you cage the beast, the beast gets angry' is what he warns Xavier about. Wolverine's primal fury (the berserker rage) is somewhat akin to the fury of the Phoenix in the movie. Wolverine obviously feels a great sympathy and empathy with Jean. We don't know how much the other X-Men know about what Xavier did...but we do know that Logan knew the awful truth. This does explain his behaviour in the movie.

I give you credit for coming up with an interesting and plausible theory however, I still have a problem with Wolverine having more empathy for a woman he barely knew then Storm and all the other X-Men who knew Jean better. Regardless of whatever theory is used to justify Wolverine's decision to go after Jean the other X-Men look heartless for giving up on Jean.

It made more sense for her to be with Magneto than it would have done for her to fly off somewhere on her own and be removed from the narrative thrust of the movie. If she had left on her own after destroying Xavier, how then would she be brought back into the movie? If she were on her own, up in the mountains or wherever, what would make her come back and have a destructive spree?

I would have no problem with Jean joining the brotherhood if it was explained why she joined. I think the moive did an atrociously bad job of making Jean's motivations clear.

It might have been a better idea if the writers hadn't even included Jean in the script because it's clear that they didn't know how to properly use her.

I think it looks pretty obvious in the movie that Jean is numb with shock and grief over what the Phoenix part of her mind has done to Xavier. She has destroyed Cyclops and Xavier, so going back to the mansion and swishing into the kitchen to make a coffee isn't really an option. Even if Jean wanted (and was able to stay in control long enough) to have the mental blocks reinstated, there would be little chance without Xavier there to do it. We aren't made aware of other telepaths of Xavier's capability. Magneto's cause - freedom, mutant rights, anti-control/cure - seems an attractive option.

Joining Magneto's cause is one thing. Joining the brotherhood for Magneto's cause and doing nothing to support it is what bothers me. If Magneto's cause was so attractive then there should have been at least one example in the film where Jean expresses an interest in following this cause by her actions or through speech. Unfortunately, Jean's miniscule dialogue in the film makes it impossible to get any interpretation of what she is thinking and her "standing around like a zombie" actions makes this theory even less believable.

But I agree it might have been handled and depicted differently. The Phoenix could have taken over full control of Jean's mind after destroying Xavier and willingly agreed to join Magneto's cause, declaring the Jean Grey persona to be dead forever. Phoenix would have then been a malevolent being who helped Magneto get his army to Alcatraz, helped move the bridge, protected the army when the bridge fell and lashed out at the military. But, given the enormous power of the Phoenix, she would need to have been temporarily knocked out of the battle at some point, as she had the power to end it all there and then. In the comics, Beast leaps and places a mental scrambler device on Jean (similar to the one Stryker placed on Xavier in X2) so we'd need something like that to happen for a while at the final battle, in order for other characters to shine.

There's no question that Jean's role should have been handled differently. I would like to know why the writers didn't make Jean's motivations overwhelmingly obvious. If she truely believed in the cause why not Jean dialogue that confirms this and give her something destructive to do that would move this cause forward. On the other hand if she is in turmoil about joining the brotherhood why not show scenes of what she is thinking? Why not show the power struggle between Jean and the Phoenix?

What's really pathetic is that Jean's role after killing Xavier is so insignificant and small that if you removed most of her scenes(with the exception of the final ones at Alcatraz) the structure of the storyline wouldn't appear to be much different for a viewing audience.

 

[X-Maniac]

I give you credit for coming up with an interesting and plausible theory however, I still have a problem with Wolverine having more empathy for a woman he barely knew then Storm and all the other X-Men who knew Jean better. Regardless of whatever theory is used to justify Wolverine's decision to go after Jean the other X-Men look heartless for giving up on Jean.

I agree the other X-Men did look somewhat heartless... BUT we don't know that they knew about the cause of Jean's behaviour (Xavier's mental blocks, a second personality, an inner struggle), and we only see that Wolverine knows the terrible truth. To the others, Jean would just seem like some sort of unstable monster. Also, there was no real warmth and strong camaraderie between the characters in the previous movies - when Jean dies, only Cyclops and Wolverine are shown reacting; and afterwards, only Cyclops and Wolverine talk to Xavier about why she made her choice to leave the plane. No one else is shown reacting, grieving, trying to understand. The sisterly bond between Jean and Ororo is markedly absent on these occasions.

Storm's tougher stance in this third movie doesn't appeal to everyone, for sure. Her main responsibility is shown to be for the school and the children, and after the professor dies and Jean joins Magneto, she has little tolerance for Jean. She even has doubts of her own role of taking on the school (she is shown being shocked when Xavier suggests it, she is shown being motivated into taking on the role when a new student - Angel - seeks sanctuary there and proves the school is very much still needed).

But I agree there could/should have been more reaction from the X-Men over Jean.

I would have no problem with Jean joining the brotherhood if it was explained why she joined. I think the moive did an atrociously bad job of making Jean's motivations clear.

It might have been a better idea if the writers hadn't even included Jean in the script because it's clear that they didn't know how to properly use her.



Joining Magneto's cause is one thing. Joining the brotherhood for Magneto's cause and doing nothing to support it is what bothers me. If Magneto's cause was so attractive then there should have been at least one example in the film where Jean expresses an interest in following this cause by her actions or through speech. Unfortunately, Jean's miniscule dialogue in the film makes it impossible to get any interpretation of what she is thinking and her "standing around like a zombie" actions makes this theory even less believable.



There's no question that Jean's role should have been handled differently. I would like to know why the writers didn't make Jean's motivations overwhelmingly obvious. If she truely believed in the cause why not Jean dialogue that confirms this and give her something destructive to do that would move this cause forward. On the other hand if she is in turmoil about joining the brotherhood why not show scenes of what she is thinking? Why not show the power struggle between Jean and the Phoenix?

What's really pathetic is that Jean's role after killing Xavier is so insignificant and small that if you removed most of her scenes(with the exception of the final ones at Alcatraz) the structure of the storyline wouldn't appear to be much different for a viewing audience.

The writers did say they lost most of their battles in the second half of the movie, so it's possible that Jean's development suffered as a result of that.

I think what the movie is trying to show is that Jean joining the Brotherhood is the best (and only realistic) option for her at that time... but that she is lost and in turmoil.

She feels unable to return to her previous life at the mansion because of what has happened. And yet she is unsure of her allegiance with the Brotherhood - she threatens Magneto with cure needles (and in a deleted scene she makes people at the camp cry out in pain with some kind of pulsing nuclear reaction created from disassembling a metal cup!). And despite summoning Wolverine to the camp, she then turns away when Magneto confronts and attacks him. But she listens carefully when Magneto tells Jean the cure is meant for all of them; you can see in her eye movements that she is considering what he says and she does indeed go with the army to Alcatraz (where an attack with cure needles is what sets her off into her final meltdown). She must have been meant to be shown as ambivalent and somewhat unpredictable in her intentions and reactions.

However, standing around doing and saying very little or nothing did not work. I agree she needed more dialogue and action to clarify her motivations.