MCU's second "arc"

[Willie Lumpkin]

I don't like Kang just for his powers. I really like his backstory, motives, and story arc.

I'm not an Avengers or Kang fan myself, but I get where you're coming from. When you read comic books as a kid, you want to see those characters - not some other character that can serve the same purpose.

But I also think Dr. Cosmic is pointing out that, as bad as Marvel has screwed up some villains in the past, they should just create a new character and not screw up Kang now.

... but I'd like to take a more optimistic view and believe Marvel will improve the way they deal with villains - Hela looks promising so far, so hopefully that's the start of a trend.

 

[Spiderine]

He was Mephistopheles, not Mephisto. There may not seem a difference, but Mephistopheles is a known name for a Demon (or in many cases Satan himself) that predated Marvel comics while Mephisto is a Marvel character.

Fox couldn't prevent Sony from using Mephistopheles any more than they could prevent any of the 100's of other films and TV shows out there from using variations of Satan.

If Sony had called him Mephisto, Fox probably would have a legal case (though they may have not chosen to pursue it).

WOW......Interesting

All this time I thought Mephisto was with the GR property. Maybe thats because I thought I heard that name in that movie.

Well......thats another great character handcuffed to the FOX prison wall.

 

[Spiderine]

...but what if you could?

We've got Graviton, Count Nefaria, Super-Adaptoid and The Hood, all of whom are much better suited for Marvel's INO approach along the lines of Ego, Zemo, Vulture, Alexander Pierce and probably Hela.

If you're just married to the idea of doing a huge time travel story, you've got Korvac, who gains that power among many others, and wouldn't you know it, that's a character that is much more likely to have grounded dynamic relationships with the heroes than Kang.

They still got some villains to use if they don't get FF rights back. Korvac would be cool. They also got the High Evolutionary.

 

[DrCosmic]

I don't like Kang just for his powers. I really like his backstory, motives, and story arc.

I wasn't talking about his powers, so much as what he can bring to an Avengers movie. If you just want Kang's backstory, motives and story arc done justice, I don't see what that has to do with the Avengers.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I wasn't talking about his powers, so much as what he can bring to an Avengers movie. If you just want Kang's backstory, motives and story arc done justice, I don't see what that has to do with the Avengers.

Because Kang vs the Avengers are a good match.

You don't replace the Joker with Captain Boomerang and expect the same dynamics and compelling rivalry between Batman.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

sooooo...with FOX being a*****s, I think we can cross out Doom, Kang, Galactus et al from the list of potential story arcs

 

[First Avenger]

I have this feeling that I'm gonna lose interest in Marvel Studios movies after Avengers 4. I just can't see what they can do without the F4 part of the universe to keep things fresh. Sequels won't do it for me.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

sooooo...with FOX being a*****s, I think we can cross out Doom, Kang, Galactus et al from the list of potential story arcs

My emotional side wants to burn Fox to the ground. My more rational side sees this as probably a very good sign. I think it's a lot more likely Fox is using this as bait to get a deal from Marvel than it is likely to really happen.

This could be the catalyst needed to shake things loose and get Marvel to make a serious offer.

 

[Zarex]

I have this feeling that I'm gonna lose interest in Marvel Studios movies after Avengers 4. I just can't see what they can do without the F4 part of the universe to keep things fresh. Sequels won't do it for me.

I'm starting to have the same concerns. With so many key properties tied up at other studios or at Marvel TV the second arc is looking mighty shaky. I would hate to see the MCU go the FOX-Men route and keep recycling the same characters and plots over and over until the heat death of the universe.

But that may not be a concern. Sony and FOX's plans to make films with Marvel antagonists awkwardly forced into starring roles may kill off the golden age of comic book movies before the next decade.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

My emotional side wants to burn Fox to the ground. My more rational side sees this as probably a very good sign. I think it's a lot more likely Fox is using this as bait to get a deal from Marvel than it is likely to really happen.

This could be the catalyst needed to shake things loose and get Marvel to make a serious offer.

I hope you're right.

It would be a sly business movie.

Showing Fox has a solid plan for FF increases it's negotiation value.

And it might be a bluff. Noah Hawley has a busy schedule over the next couple of years.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I'm starting to have the same concerns. With so many key properties tied up at other studios or at Marvel TV the second arc is looking mighty shaky. I would hate to see the MCU go the FOX-Men route and keep recycling the same characters and plots over and over until the heat death of the universe.

But that may not be a concern. Sony and FOX's plans to make films with Marvel antagonists awkwardly forced into starring roles may kill off the golden age of comic book movies before the next decade.

It's going to take more than that to kill the golden age.

The last few superhero movies made over 600 m.

No other genre has anything close to that level of success.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I hope you're right.

It would be a sly business movie.

Showing Fox has a solid plan for FF increases it's negotiation value.

And it might be a bluff. Noah Hawley has a busy schedule over the next couple of years.

Here's why I think it's probably a ruse:

1. Timing - If Fox really is thinking about something like this, they probably wouldn't make it for several years, so why talk about it now? The Valeria Franklin Rumor leaked a little while back and now this. I think both were very specifically designed to make Marvel think they really are crazy enough to make another film. And Fox is getting a little more desperate. They're already two years closer to the rights reverting and with Homecoming doing so well, shareholders will be pushing for them to get some value out of the FF rights.

2. It would be a bad idea - Villain films are far riskier than hero films. To sell a villain film, you need the hard-core geeks to make it work. But Fox has a serious problem mustering those forces. Doom is primarily an FF villain, so the people most interested in seeing a Doom film are FF fans - and we all know how FF fans feel about Fox and any films they might make. Plus Fox hasn't only crapped all over FF with their three bad films, they've featured Doom in all three of those bad films. So he's just as tarnished and just as unlikely (if not far more) to be a commercially successful property as the FF.

 

[NealKenneth]

I agree that it could be a ruse...but I also believe Trank's film entered production as a ruse. Unfortunately, Disney never called their bluff. Who knows if they will this time?

Regarding Phase 4 and losing interest. I made a thread in a seperate subforum asking what people thought about this being the peak of superhero films. My thoughts are basically that, unless Disney gets the FF rights somehow, Avengers 4 is the grand finale of the last decade of cinema. Especially if certain characters like Iron Man are shelved or retired.

Is it even possible that a lead lineup of Captain Marvel, Ant-Man, Wasp and Black Panther is going to sell as many tickets as Captain America, Iron Man, Thor and Hulk? Disney seems to be banking on that happening, or at least for a mass recasting to go smoothly. I don't think either of these are going to be so well-received. I mean...imagine a television show where all the main characters were either retired or recasted a few seasons in. Has that ever worked? That's basically what happened around season five or six of The Office, for example.

I just don't see a good path forward for the MCU without the FF rights, especially their rogue's gallery. The best thing I've been able to think of is Norman Osborn with a Dark Reign/Siege on Asgard series.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

well, if f***ing Norman Osborne is or best scenario, we're basically f***ed

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Masters of Evil could be bigger in scope than Osborne but no where as big as Infinity War.

 

[NealKenneth]

well, if f***ing Norman Osborne is or best scenario, we're basically f***ed

It's true!

I mean, who else do they have? Ultimo? Paste Pot Pete? I'm already reaching into Spider-Man's rogue gallery for ideas and Disney isn't even guaranteed to have access to those characters in Phase 4. We're going to need compelling and credible villains for this story to continue, especially after Thanos. Otherwise who cares?

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

well, we've only seen the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Dormammu or Ultron, we have a good actor attached to Graviton (just... you know, use him!), the Elders of the Universe could be mined, Dark Reign, as awful as that story was, still works if not Norman but another villain like Justin Hammer is used (it might work even better), then there's Korvac, Taskmaster...

 

[AlluAllu]

Whoever the next big bad is, if there's even going to be one, they shouldn't be cosmic in nature. Thanos is already this huge, reality threatening bad guy. Going even bigger in the future would be silly, unimaginative and redundant. The threat should feel more personal, more human. Zemo, Ultron, Osborn or even an original character could work.

 

[DrCosmic]

Because Kang vs the Avengers are a good match.

You don't replace the Joker with Captain Boomerang and expect the same dynamics and compelling rivalry between Batman.

Kang ain't the Joker. He doesn't represent the profound logical antithesis of the very premise of the Avengers. He's another guy, with his own story that's largely unimportant to them, and thus, important to a 2hr movie which they star in. Ultron, for all his supposedly being created by the Avengers isn't even the Joker, and subbing out Ultron for, I don't know, Awesome Android, would not have taken the entertainment level of the film down, because the MCU doesn't live on it's villains, so it doesn't die on them either. DC is another story, so it's kinda apples and oranges.

Can anyone support this idea that the MCU is dependent on the comics gravitas of it's villains with any examples, or is this just mcfluff because "we" don't get the Ff?

 

[DrCosmic]

Masters of Evil could be bigger in scope than Osborne but no where as big as Infinity War.

MoE/T-Bolts seems like more of a Loki in terms of bringing something to shake up the team and then still appearing in other forms throughout the arc without being the main again.

Do you know who would absolutely blow my mind if they became the 'Thanos' for the second arc? Squadron Sinister. Guess who wouldn't be missing an MCU-ized Galactus that turns into David Hasselhoff for yuks.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

well, we've only seen the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Dormammu or Ultron, we have a good actor attached to Graviton (just... you know, use him!), the Elders of the Universe could be mined, Dark Reign, as awful as that story was, still works if not Norman but another villain like Justin Hammer is used (it might work even better), then there's Korvac, Taskmaster...

I think they need to combine all of these villians into a single team to increase the scope of the multi-phase story arc.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Kang ain't the Joker. He doesn't represent the profound logical antithesis of the very premise of the Avengers. He's another guy, with his own story that's largely unimportant to them, and thus, important to a 2hr movie which they star in. Ultron, for all his supposedly being created by the Avengers isn't even the Joker, and subbing out Ultron for, I don't know, Awesome Android, would not have taken the entertainment level of the film down, because the MCU doesn't live on it's villains, so it doesn't die on them either. DC is another story, so it's kinda apples and oranges.

Can anyone support this idea that the MCU is dependent on the comics gravitas of it's villains with any examples, or is this just mcfluff because "we" don't get the Ff?

The Joker was an extreme example but my point is not all villains are disposable and should be replaced with another character.

It doesn't need to be the Joker.

I'd be pissed if they replaced Bane with Killer Croc or Two Face with Black Mask.

Kang is a top 5 Avengers villain, easily.

You don't trash his Avengers rivalry and story arc just to excuse an unnaturally isolated FF universe and a Doom solo project that Marvel Studios could easily do themselves.

 

[DrCosmic]

The Joker was an extreme example but my point is not all villains are disposable and should be replaced with another character.

It doesn't need to be the Joker.

I'd be pissed if they replaced Bane with Killer Croc or Two Face with Black Mask.

Kang is a top 5 Avengers villain, easily.

You don't trash his Avengers rivalry and story arc just to excuse an unnaturally isolated FF universe and a Doom solo project that Marvel Studios could easily do themselves.

No one's trashing anything. There never was going to be an MCU Kang. That was just fanfic, just like the idea of a MCU Doom solo.

Ultron is also top 5, but look how that worked out? So is Zemo, but he only worked in Civil War because he was nothing like comic Zemo. There's a reason all your examples come from DC, and when I ask for Marvel examples there are none. I won't go so far as to say villains don't matter in the MCU, but... they don't seem to matter much, and certainly how 'top' they are means absolutely nothing to the MCU. Absolutely nothing.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

No one's trashing anything. There never was going to be an MCU Kang. That was just fanfic, just like the idea of a MCU Doom solo.

Ultron is also top 5, but look how that worked out? So is Zemo, but he only worked in Civil War because he was nothing like comic Zemo. There's a reason all your examples come from DC, and when I ask for Marvel examples there are none. I won't go so far as to say villains don't matter in the MCU, but... they don't seem to matter much, and certainly how 'top' they are means absolutely nothing to the MCU. Absolutely nothing.

Fanfic?

Are you saying it's impossible for FF, Doom, and Kang to join the MCU?

Is Civil War and Spider-man Homecoming fanfic?

They also got back Daredevil, Ghost Rider, Punisher, Blade, the list goes on.

Loki, Kingpin, Ego, Vulture, and possibly Hela turned out pretty well so it's not like Kang in MCU is doomed to fail.

Marvel is getting better and better at villians.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

I wouldn't mind seeing a Masters of Evil led by Zemo and then by Ultron. I could see an entire three phase arc dedicated to that.

Call it
Phase 4: Thunderbolts
- General Ross establishes a team he can more easily control.
Phase 5: Avengers vs Masters (Zemo)
- The Thunderbolts turn evil and make it their goal to take out the Avengers.
Phase 6: Avengers vs Masters (Ultron)
- Ultron slices off Zemo's head and takes over the Masters and the world.