Morrison's Preptime Batgod?

[THE MR. TERRIFIC]

Dont hate, the Bat is great!!

 

[D.P.]

still arguing?

The Guard hasn't pummeled you with enough logic? lol

 

[sepharih]

Hate to tell it to you, but it seems history disagrees with you.

LOL!!!!! First, learn your history. Second, learn how to read. From the same Wikipedia article(on the right side of the page):

Strength of the Greek Army:
300 Spartans
700 Thespians
6,000 other Greek allies

And:

Out of the initial 7,000-strong Greek army, all but 2,300 were dismissed on the third day.

... Yep, and it also got the credibility of a used Car Salesman

???

 

[Sun_Down]

How does showing that the character is very intelligent and strategically brilliant compromise the character?

Jesus, when are you gonna get this? It's not that he's intelligent, it's how insanely overly intelligent lazy writers make him. Yes, it's cool when Bats can outsmart and take down someone more powerful than himself, but when it becomes a habit, it...

A) Makes the event of Batman saving the day less impactful
B) Insults the reader's intelligence

Now I'm gonna say this one more time so that you don't miss it : I have no problem with Batman being smart, that's a central part of his character. I just have a problem with it being taken too far. Batman is human, and should be treated as such.

Fact is brawn triumphs over brain more often than not, especially when dealing with characters who are basically gods. You seem to think that me stating this fact means that I "don't like Batman" or something. But that's not the case at all. I love Batman, but part of what I love about him is that he's NOT a god. He shouldn't be able to beat Superman in a fight, atleast not more times than he loses. But that's what makes him cool. In the context of the League, he's the perpetual underdog. When he and Supes square off, he should win like one time outta 10. But it seems that most writers would have him win 10 times out of 10. And as a Batman fan and someone with a brain, that bothers. I'll repost teseract's post for clarification...

Of Course it is, everytime the Batgod plot device is used the other members of the JLA act like bloody rookies. Not to speak of the fact that they all know that Batman is resourceful yet when it comes to confrontations they all of a sudden magically forget that they should be cautious around him and just rush in blind and deaf, as if their intelligence has been suddenly reduced to the IQ of a pre-schooler.

It's the idea that Batman is somehow the ONLY intelligent character in the entire DCU and that NOBODY else EVER prepares for ANYTHING. As if Superman or Darkseid isn't gonna think ahead at all. That's all we're saying.

 

[The Guard]

Jesus, when are you gonna get this? It's not that he's intelligent, it's how insanely overly intelligent lazy writers make him.

That's just it. They're not making him overly intelligent. If you are going up against creatures who fear fire...you take FIRE with you to defeat them. Nor, if you had your ASS handed to you by Prometheus once already do you go into battle with Prometheus again without preparing.

This is not a difficult or complex concept. Neither is this:

Batman is a genius. Always has been. The man, as a character, is recognized as having genius-level intellect. And this is a staple of the mythology. So him doing "smart things"? That's in character. Can you point out an example of a time when Batman has been shown to insanely overly intelligent?

Yes, it's cool when Bats can outsmart and take down someone more powerful than himself, but when it becomes a habit, it...

So you WANT Batman to fail on the greatest stage there is?

No, no, I get it: "But he can't possibly always win". And sure, in REAL LIFE, he'd probably lose several times, but it's called STORY. The hero tends to defeat the villain, or at least come up with something after the villain gives him trouble once. This is how stories and comics work. So if you're going to buy into this WORLD, and into the ideas it presents, you have to decide...


Do you WANT Batman to fail against someone like Prometheus or Superman and be killed, just because it "could happen"?

Or would you rather see Batman, going into a fight he can't possibly win, find a way around his human limitations, as he's been doing for DECADES, and see the writers at least make it interesting?

A) Makes the event of Batman saving the day less impactful

I don't know how much impact it's going to have anyway. You KNOW he's not going to die because he's the hero (Well, unless FINAL CRISIS turns out the way we all pray it will). But you're acting like he saves the day all the time, and that's just not the case. A lot of the time, he just saves HIMSELF (White Martians, Prometheus, Superman attacking him, etc).

B) Insults the reader's intelligence

How does it insult the readers intelligence? Because Superman isn't using fire-devices against the Martians?

Now I'm gonna say this one more time so that you don't miss it : I have no problem with Batman being smart, that's a central part of his character. I just have a problem with it being taken too far.

You have yet to provide me with any real examples of why you think it IS being taken too far. To date, I have yet to see one example, actually.

Batman is human, and should be treated as such.

He is, and so he can be hurt, and knows he cannot defeat most characters in physical combat without a major edge. But he's also not an average human, and so he isn't depicted as one.

Fact is brawn triumphs over brain more often than not, especially when dealing with characters who are basically gods.

Sure, in a PHYSICAL FIGHT brawn triumphs over brain. Which is precisely why Batman usually has something other than physical force to rely on.

You seem to think that me stating this fact means that I "don't like Batman" or something. But that's not the case at all. I love Batman, but part of what I love about him is that he's NOT a god. He shouldn't be able to beat Superman in a fight, atleast not more times than he loses.

Oh come on, I don't think you hate Batman. I think you just don't understand why he's portrayed the way he is with the league as of late. The entire league has had their powers amped up over the last decade or so. Ditto the threats they face. Where once they were facing Starro and beams of light, they're facing White Martians now. They have all evolved, become more intense, and more capable.

No, Batman is not a god. But the man is not PORTRAYED as a God, either. He's portrayed as a man who uses various technological and strategic methods not to fall behind his godlike teammates. He's portrayed as a very intelligent person who uses either CHEATING or VARIOUS INVENTIONS to win. Same as he always has.

And here's the thing about Batman VS Superman contests...you say Batman shouldn't be able to beat Superman in a fight, and here's my point: It's rare that he does. Usually, he doesn't, or it ends in some kind of draw, even with Batman cheating.

This is why I keep asking for examples. Again, which "fight scenario" are you referring to that's so ridiculous that Batman "wins" that seems so absurd? The ones I've seen make perfect sense as much as a comic book fan. And in the ones I've seen, other than Frank Miller's (and even in those), Superman ALWAYS has the upper hand until Batman either cheats, or someone else saves him from Superman. And the last major one we saw had Superman almost killing Batman in the Watchtower.

Think about it. For much of 60 FREAKING YEARS, almost anyone who has Kryptonite has been able to best Superman. ANYONE. Luthor, common criminals, Batman, other leaguers, you name it. So what's the issue with Batman using it to gain an edge so we don't have to see our beloved hero murdered by a good guy?

Seriously, I think sometimes some of you want to see Batman murdered by Superman just because it "could" happen. But I don't think you "get" how stories work. If Batman and Superman fight, you don't have Superman pummel Batman just because he could concievably do it anymore than Batman gets shot in the face and dies because it "could" happen.

Although I do have Superman pummeling Batman in my JUSTICE LEAGUE sequel script, as well as the rest of the league...but that's me.

But that's what makes him cool. In the context of the League, he's the perpetual underdog. When he and Supes square off, he should win like one time outta 10.

And he does. But he shouldn't ever "lose" to the point that he could. Ever.

But it seems that most writers would have him win 10 times out of 10.

Can you prove this with actual examples?

It's the idea that Batman is somehow the ONLY intelligent character in the entire DCU and that NOBODY else EVER prepares for ANYTHING.

Batman is not the only character shown preparing anymore. Which situations do leaguers not prepare for that you think they should have? And why should they have, in these particular situations?

As if Superman or Darkseid isn't gonna think ahead at all. That's all we're saying.

Superman doesn't need to think again a whole lot, and in that particular arc the reason he didn't was shown: When Darkseid kidnapped Kara, Superman snapped. It pissed him off. He wasn't thinking clearly at all.

And it doesn't really matter if Darkseid thinks ahead in that particular scene. When Apokolips is actually threatened, he tends to back down. Regardless of who is threatening it (Batman, The New Gods, The Guardians, whoever). This is KEY to Darkseid's character over the years.

 

[Steelsheen]

If you tie her up, she becomes powerless.

that was only true in some parts of Pre-Crisis, which for the most part was written in and out of cannon. for Post Crisis this was never used, therefore is no longer true. there is some debate however about her vulnerability to sharp metallic projectiles like spears and bullets.

That and her ego and emotions cause problems for her. She will not give up, and hates to lose.

i dont recall ego and emotions to be a flaw of Diana in any story (pre or post crisis), if anything she has the same "flaw" as Superman: thinking that the innate goodness of a person would win over the evil nature, and of course time and time again, they're proven that its rarely the case.

also, although she is very competitive, she is no where near as intense as Batman. she's rational and fair minded, however if she thinks she's right about something she wouldnt care if everyone else negates her and would often just go on her own following her hunches. to others it would appear as stubbornness or impetuousness, but then again it just goes to show that WW doesnt need the permission of men to act.

 

[ba2387]

I think the best way to show Batman's best asset is to have him going against the odds, getting pummeled, then getting up again until hes within an inch of his life. His ridiculous will is what makes him the goddamn batman for me.

 

[Steelsheen]

No, Batman is not a god. But the man is not PORTRAYED as a God, either. He's portrayed as a man who uses various technological and strategic methods not to fall behind his godlike teammates. He's portrayed as a very intelligent person who uses either CHEATING or VARIOUS INVENTIONS to win. Same as he always has.

i see it more as Batman fighting by his own roles, he doesnt care if anyone else approves of it or not. given that he thinks that way, we're lucky that his moral compass is on this side of the dividing line.

 

[Sun_Down]

That's just it. They're not making him overly intelligent. If you are going up against creatures who fear fire...you take FIRE with you to defeat them. Nor, if you had your ASS handed to you by Prometheus once already do you go into battle with Prometheus again without preparing.

This is not a difficult or complex concept. Neither is this:

Batman is a genius. Always has been. The man, as a character, is recognized as having genius-level intellect. And this is a staple of the mythology. So him doing "smart things"? That's in character. Can you point out an example of a time when Batman has been shown to insanely overly intelligent?



So you WANT Batman to fail on the greatest stage there is?

No, no, I get it: "But he can't possibly always win". And sure, in REAL LIFE, he'd probably lose several times, but it's called STORY. The hero tends to defeat the villain, or at least come up with something after the villain gives him trouble once. This is how stories and comics work. So if you're going to buy into this WORLD, and into the ideas it presents, you have to decide...


Do you WANT Batman to fail against someone like Prometheus or Superman and be killed, just because it "could happen"?

Or would you rather see Batman, going into a fight he can't possibly win, find a way around his human limitations, as he's been doing for DECADES, and see the writers at least make it interesting?



I don't know how much impact it's going to have anyway. You KNOW he's not going to die because he's the hero (Well, unless FINAL CRISIS turns out the way we all pray it will). But you're acting like he saves the day all the time, and that's just not the case. A lot of the time, he just saves HIMSELF (White Martians, Prometheus, Superman attacking him, etc).



How does it insult the readers intelligence? Because Superman isn't using fire-devices against the Martians?



You have yet to provide me with any real examples of why you think it IS being taken too far. To date, I have yet to see one example, actually.



He is, and so he can be hurt, and knows he cannot defeat most characters in physical combat without a major edge. But he's also not an average human, and so he isn't depicted as one.



Sure, in a PHYSICAL FIGHT brawn triumphs over brain. Which is precisely why Batman usually has something other than physical force to rely on.



Oh come on, I don't think you hate Batman. I think you just don't understand why he's portrayed the way he is with the league as of late. The entire league has had their powers amped up over the last decade or so. Ditto the threats they face. Where once they were facing Starro and beams of light, they're facing White Martians now. They have all evolved, become more intense, and more capable.

No, Batman is not a god. But the man is not PORTRAYED as a God, either. He's portrayed as a man who uses various technological and strategic methods not to fall behind his godlike teammates. He's portrayed as a very intelligent person who uses either CHEATING or VARIOUS INVENTIONS to win. Same as he always has.

And here's the thing about Batman VS Superman contests...you say Batman shouldn't be able to beat Superman in a fight, and here's my point: It's rare that he does. Usually, he doesn't, or it ends in some kind of draw, even with Batman cheating.

This is why I keep asking for examples. Again, which "fight scenario" are you referring to that's so ridiculous that Batman "wins" that seems so absurd? The ones I've seen make perfect sense as much as a comic book fan. And in the ones I've seen, other than Frank Miller's (and even in those), Superman ALWAYS has the upper hand until Batman either cheats, or someone else saves him from Superman. And the last major one we saw had Superman almost killing Batman in the Watchtower.

Think about it. For much of 60 FREAKING YEARS, almost anyone who has Kryptonite has been able to best Superman. ANYONE. Luthor, common criminals, Batman, other leaguers, you name it. So what's the issue with Batman using it to gain an edge so we don't have to see our beloved hero murdered by a good guy?

Seriously, I think sometimes some of you want to see Batman murdered by Superman just because it "could" happen. But I don't think you "get" how stories work. If Batman and Superman fight, you don't have Superman pummel Batman just because he could concievably do it anymore than Batman gets shot in the face and dies because it "could" happen.

Although I do have Superman pummeling Batman in my JUSTICE LEAGUE sequel script, as well as the rest of the league...but that's me.



And he does. But he shouldn't ever "lose" to the point that he could. Ever.



Can you prove this with actual examples?



Batman is not the only character shown preparing anymore. Which situations do leaguers not prepare for that you think they should have? And why should they have, in these particular situations?



Superman doesn't need to think again a whole lot, and in that particular arc the reason he didn't was shown: When Darkseid kidnapped Kara, Superman snapped. It pissed him off. He wasn't thinking clearly at all.

And it doesn't really matter if Darkseid thinks ahead in that particular scene. When Apokolips is actually threatened, he tends to back down. Regardless of who is threatening it (Batman, The New Gods, The Guardians, whoever). This is KEY to Darkseid's character over the years.

*Sigh* I guess we just see things differently on this one.

 

[Steelsheen]

Batgod​

loosely translated from Chinese

 

[CaptainClown]

I'm thinking Arbys

 

[I Am The Knight]

Batman has always been "Prep Time Bat" ... Go read a comic from the 40's .... It's there...It's not new. It has always been part of the character.

 

[Jake Cassidy]

Batman has always been "Prep Time Bat" ... Go read a comic from the 40's .... It's there...It's not new. It has always been part of the character.

I think some people are just trying to say that it's gone a bit overboard lately. That's all.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Well, he did use Bat Shark Repellant way back in 1966... That was pretty extreme. t:

 

[Jake Cassidy]

Well, he did use Bat Shark Repellant way back in 1966... That was pretty extreme. t:

That movie is ****ing hilarious. t:
Best Batman movie ever.

 

[Frosty81]

This thread has inspired me to contact the local university and inquire as to whether or not I shall be allowed to teach a course in Prep Time. Think about it.

 

[shadowdog]

Well, he did use Bat Shark Repellant way back in 1966... That was pretty extreme. t:

WOw, I love that film so much. I still giggle thinking about the lair the bad guys lived in. Where do you go to find property with seperate theme oriented corners for each person who lives there?

 

[Dr. Fate]

Jesus, when are you gonna get this? It's not that he's intelligent, it's how insanely overly intelligent lazy writers make him. Yes, it's cool when Bats can outsmart and take down someone more powerful than himself, but when it becomes a habit, it...

A) Makes the event of Batman saving the day less impactful
B) Insults the reader's intelligence

Now I'm gonna say this one more time so that you don't miss it : I have no problem with Batman being smart, that's a central part of his character. I just have a problem with it being taken too far. Batman is human, and should be treated as such.

Fact is brawn triumphs over brain more often than not, especially when dealing with characters who are basically gods. You seem to think that me stating this fact means that I "don't like Batman" or something. But that's not the case at all. I love Batman, but part of what I love about him is that he's NOT a god. He shouldn't be able to beat Superman in a fight, atleast not more times than he loses. But that's what makes him cool. In the context of the League, he's the perpetual underdog. When he and Supes square off, he should win like one time outta 10. But it seems that most writers would have him win 10 times out of 10. And as a Batman fan and someone with a brain, that bothers. I'll repost teseract's post for clarification...



It's the idea that Batman is somehow the ONLY intelligent character in the entire DCU and that NOBODY else EVER prepares for ANYTHING. As if Superman or Darkseid isn't gonna think ahead at all. That's all we're saying.

I agree. That's why I voted No to Morrison's Batgod being in the JLA film.

 

[CaptainClown]

I am watching The batman movie (adam west) and I would love to see a batman who has all these ridiculous devices and just has them all over. Not cause I think it would look good but it would be ridiculous and be funny. But thats just me

 

[Dr. Fate]

The only people bothered by this are \S/ fan-boys and Bat-haters who can't stand to see Batman always come out on top and their hero getting trumped time and time again...

It goes both ways - the die hard Bat-fan-boys can't stand seeing their hero Batman get his ass trumped by someone else.

 

[lixdexia]

It goes both ways - the die hard Bat-fan-boys can't stand seeing their hero Batman get his ass trumped by someone else.

idk about that. i'm a huge batman geek, and i love seeing batman get his ass handed to him time and again. it's one of the reasons i prefer him to superman actually, because he has to overcome it. he has to get up and keep going no matter what kind of a disadvantage he might be at. as far as the superman batman fights go, most of the ones i've seen start with superman kicking batmans ass and then bats pulling a trump card, and i think this works well for both of them. it shows superman's physical advantage and batman's mental one.not saying superman is stupid, but batman has to be the most intelligent member of the league, otherwise he has no real point there than to be the bankroll.

 

[The Guard]

that was only true in some parts of Pre-Crisis, which for the most part was written in and out of cannon. for Post Crisis this was never used, therefore is no longer true. there is some debate however about her vulnerability to sharp metallic projectiles like spears and bullets.

And the show. I've seen it used sparingly Post Crisis every now and then. It doesn't matter. This is a movie, not subject to therules of comics, and especially if it's her "unbreakable lasso" binding her; it's not a stretch to say that if someone was bound by their own unreakable lasso that they couldn't break free themselves.

i dont recall ego and emotions to be a flaw of Diana in any story (pre or post crisis), if anything she has the same "flaw" as Superman: thinking that the innate goodness of a person would win over the evil nature, and of course time and time again, they're proven that its rarely the case.

Wonder Woman's belief in innate goodness is exactly what I meant when I referred to as an "emotional flaw" on her part. She can be beaten there.

As for her "ego" issues. I think you need to read more Wonder Woman comics and stories with her in them. Start with KINGDOM COME. The woman's an Amazon warrior, and a damn proud one. Almost relentless in her fight against evil and her struggle against the odds. She thinks she knows what's right most of the time, and she will do what she has to do in an effort to bring peace to man's world.

also, although she is very competitive, she is no where near as intense as Batman.

I disagree wholeheartedly. They're both pretty intense, but Batman is known to retreat. Diana, most of the time, simply will not. JLA: TOWER OF BABEL and the surrounding stories are a good place to start for this element.

she's rational and fair minded, however if she thinks she's right about something she wouldnt care if everyone else negates her and would often just go on her own following her hunches. to others it would appear as stubbornness or impetuousness, but then again it just goes to show that WW doesnt need the permission of men to act.

Exactly. This is an issue of ego. She tends to think she CAN'T be wrong.

I think some people are just trying to say that it's gone a bit overboard lately. That's all.

I'm still waiting on an example that actually makes it seem like it's gone overboard. Most of the time, just like on Earth, I see Batman, finding himself in outlandish situations and doing fairly levelheaded things not to get killed.

Anyway, re: Batman getting his ass handed to him. Yeah, he takes a licking and keeps on coming, and it's nice to see every once in a while. But if he doesn't have an edge against Darkseid, he wouldn't exist much longer. Ditto going into a fight against Prometheus without an edge. Most of the time, when Batman could potentially have his ass handed to him if he wasn't prepared, he wouldn't realistically survive if he hadn't gotten out of those situations.

 

[Steelsheen]

idk about that. i'm a huge batman geek, and i love seeing batman get his ass handed to him time and again. it's one of the reasons i prefer him to superman actually, because he has to overcome it. he has to get up and keep going no matter what kind of a disadvantage he might be at. as far as the superman batman fights go, most of the ones i've seen start with superman kicking batmans ass and then bats pulling a trump card, and i think this works well for both of them. it shows superman's physical advantage and batman's mental one.not saying superman is stupid, but batman has to be the most intelligent member of the league, otherwise he has no real point there than to be the bankroll.

i always thought that Batman's intelligence has got more to do with lateral thinking compared to Superman's more linear thought process. i always hated where Superman was portrayed to be just brawns and little smarts whenever Batman is around. Superman is Kryptonian for petes sake, by default he's smarter since he's more evolved than humans (its like trying to justify that Neanderthals should be smarter than us). but to reach a middle ground both men should be portrayed as the smartest of their breed its just that they think differently to reach a common goal.

 

[lixdexia]

i always thought that Batman's intelligence has got more to do with lateral thinking compared to Superman's more linear thought process. i always hated where Superman was portrayed to be just brawns and little smarts whenever Batman is around. Superman is Kryptonian for petes sake, by default he's smarter since he's more evolved than humans (its like trying to justify that Neanderthals should be smarter than us). but to reach a middle ground both men should be portrayed as the smartest of their breed its just that they think differently to reach a common goal.

i don't like your example there with superman. just because he is stronger doesn't mean krypotinans asr smarter due to gentics. sure they were smart, but that's because they'd been around much longer than humans. i'm not saying superman is dumb, i figure he should be like an intelegent regular guy, but batman's a genius.batman has trained not only his body but also his mind, and knows that information is power. and if there's something he doesn't know, he knows how to find out ( ithink supes could do this too, but batman will figure out that he needs it before supes would)

 

[Jake Cassidy]

What about Ray Palmer? Don't tell me Batman's smarter than him too. t: