kainedamo
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My feelings on Muslims and other junk (long)
As I'm sure every last one of you know, I was wrongfully baninated from your presence for the last week. During that time I could only read the threads and not participate. This has caused a deal of frustration with me. So much so, that I had a long and lenghty post planned out in particular for the thread about the Dutch government banning Burkas. But my ideas for that became so complex, I decided I would post a more general thread encompassing more of my personal thoughts and feelings, which I know you all care deeply about.
First of all. Let's talk about the idea of banning Burkas, and take a look at the arguments against Burkas. I feel frustrated, because the obvious hasn't been pointed out to those who think Burkas should be banned - and the obvious is staring them right in the face.
That was blind fury's argument. We'll call this the "burkahs are oppressive" argument. Who among you can recognise the inherent contradiction in blind fury's argument? Well, if you know the answer, give yourself a big golden star!! The contradiction is.... it's a thread about banning Burkahs. Do I really need to go more into that?
"The veil is womens liberation". blind fury's question was, how is a burkah liberating? Well, I won't pretend to know the intentions of the woman in that picture. It's possible that she recognised that there is some hostility towards those that would wear the veil. So I'd imagine that this woman's statement is that it's liberating because she can wear it. In other words, she has the choice. Taking away that choice is where the real oppression lies - anyone can recognise that, even the most die hard of republicans. More thoughts on THAT later, and my frustration with certain members of the Hype.
Short sighted argument number two - "It's not required as part of their religion". Whether it is or isn't is entirely irrelevant. It's a piece of clothing. It doesn't necessitate a religious need in order to wear it. Don't be stupid. At the very least anyway, it's a cultural thing. And that should be respected.
"It's a security risk and covers up facial features". I love this phrase - (probably not exactly right) He who sacrafices freedom for security deserves niether freedom nor security. This is what I say. If you wanna ban stuff that covers your face, fine. But don't be a hypocrite about it and ban everything that applies.
And you might aswell ban Halloween while you're at it.
And of course, nuns and priests outfits can (and have been) cunning disguises for those that would do harm.
So I mean... don't be a hypocrite or an idiot.
I have my own personal experiences of encountering people that choose to wear veils, and I have to wonder how many people that want to ban it actually know people that wear them. I tell you, when I was travelling around Europe, I saw alot of girls wearing burkahs. And they were hot. I kid you not. There was this one girl who wore a pink face veil, and tight jeans. Christ! And if they're wearing all black... so what. If you're intimidated by people that wear burkahs, maybe that is your problem. And maybe you should just stay indoors for the rest of your life. If it makes you uncomfortable, you're just going to have to deal with it. Emo kids make me uncomfortable. Goths, punks, hippies, I hate lots of people. It's safe to say everyone my age and younger, I hate how they all dress. Am I gonna ban it? No.
Let's turn to another point of argument. I really have to ask (and I expect answers in responses), who would benifet from burkahs being banned? What would be gained? What good would it do?
I'll tell you what it would do. In these times that we're living in, it's vital that we get moderate Muslims on side! Am I right or am I right? Yeah. I'm right. So why on Earth are there people out there who want to make war with the culture of Islam? How can it be a good thing to effectively tell Muslims "we don't like your culture here". Are we trying to turn moderate Muslims into angrier moderates who might potentially become extremists, or do we want them to be our friends? Deliver the right ****ing message!
So there you have it. It's clear to see that banning burkahs has NO, zero, zilch benifets, and will only have NEGATIVE consequences.
Now onto something that I was talking about earlier. Members of the hype that frustrate me. Look at Hippie_Hunter. Hippie_Hunter is a true moderate. I'm not kidding, the guy is great and very intelligent, and the rest of you republicans would do well to pay attention to him. He doesn't bleat on and on, rooting for "his side" just because it's his "team", like some of you do. I'm serious, some of you disgust me. Namely a certain member who likes to illustrate his points by putting thigns in bold. Your party is NOT a religion. Stop treating it like one. It just seems to me that people on this board, and people throughout the world too of course, say they agree with things just because thats what their "team" agrees with. Like the whole burkah thing. Any logical thinking person can see the inherint bull**** in wanting to ban burkahs. Americans that supposedly love freedom should be able to see that more clearly than others. There are members of this board who openly admit to voting BNP, there are members of the board who openly admit to wanting only pure white blood Presidents, and so on and so on. So maybe I shouldn't be surprised that the same people, time and time again, paint a "us vs them" picture. And I'm fed up with it. Why can't you just look at a situation from the point of view of a human being instead of a robot thats either Democrate or Republican? Do illustrate my point even further, i'd like to point out blind fury's posts during the "Muslims asked to leave plane" thread.
To compare Muslims "praying too loudly" in an airport to a hitchhiker wearing a hockey mask is ridiculous. It seems to me, certain members say any old bull****, no matter how stupid, in a lame attempt to defend their "side". A true moderate would recognise that the men involved in that airport incident got ****ed over. To even attempt to say "they shouldn't have brought attention to themselves" is a clear indication that YOU have issues. What do you want them to do? Not pray and dress in jeans and "I love the US!!" t-shirts??
That's a fair comment. The argument can be made that racial profiling is necassery in some instances. After all, what is the likelyhood an old woman is gonna bomb a plane? However, when you're at an airport, surely you have to realize that there are going to be ALL kinds of people there. Weird Jewish guys with big beards, a weirdo group of fat guys going to a comic con, and Muslims that take time out to pray 'cause they pray 5 times a day. There's profiling, and then there's being overly suspicious and wasting everyones time and effort.
This is a case of people not watching the right news stations. I saw plenty of leaders and representatives from the Muslim community talking about how horrible 9/11 was. To suggest the Muslim community in general doesn't care is fantasy. So my point is, I'd like for some members of the hype to excercise logic and not to seem to come off so... extreme right wing. I mean, I saw one poster refer to another poster like this in a thread not so long ago... "That's not surprising coming from a Muslim", which is really disgraceful.
How can a person say the following in a thread and not get banned outright?
I want to talk about my own personal thoughts and philosophy. I was sitting in a bar in Berlin just 4 or so weeks ago. I was a little drunk, and feeling a little nostalgic. I was keeping a book of "memoirs" of my journey around Europe. I had met so many nice people that only strengthened my believes in some things and opened my eyes to other things. So I wrote about what I was feeling in my book. Here it is... drunk while I wrote it...
"Commonality. I believe in a sort of commonality between men. All men. I believe that most men, whether they can put a word to it or not, believe in more or less the same thing. Commonality. Or, to put it another way, comradery. To meet a stranger, shake his hand, and ask who he is and where he comes from.
Like in an old fashioned way. Like in an old fashioned way. The way in which you can walk down the street, see an old man you've never seen before, and he'll tip his hat, or say hello. And you say hello back.
There is a courtesy to it. But there is something else, something deeper. There is a feeling that a man has sometimes when he meets another, that they could have been good friends in a past life.
You say hello, ask them who they are and where they come from. And never do you assume you are better, or worse than him. Not because of background, employment, education, or religion, or anything. You have a commonality with him. All men are not equal. But we are not much different from each other".
It would be great if one of you could tell me what the hell I was talking about, 'cause I sure don't know. Upon reflection on writing that, I think that maybe most people don't believe what I believe. Alot of people have to feel that they are better or above other people. Well, we ALL feel that... to a certain extent. But what I feel is, is that just because one guy went to Oxford and another guy didn't do further education at all, that doesn't make the Oxford guy a better person. But there are people that feel differently. I happened to meet a person while travelling who thought she was better because she had higher education. I feel bad enough around chicks as it is without one making me feel small. It went like this - Seamus (the guy who travelled with me) and I went to a bar in Poland, Krakow. We met two English women. They were a bit old for us to be picking up, we were just chatting. Seamus disappeared for a bit to go to the bathroom, and I was chatting away to the younger of the women. I thought we were just talking, having a good laugh. I mean, things she said came off as big headed and snobish, but I took her as ironic/sarcastic and rolled with it. She kept saying stuff like "when are you gonna get a real job?" and kept asking questions that implied I was a waste, basically. But as I said, I took it as a joke, and even said "you're a big snob aren't ya" with a grin on my face. But Seamus came back, I went to the toilet, and when I got back Seamus was saying to them "you've offended me alot" and said to me that we should go. I got my coat and asked what that was all about. The woman I had been talking to had been talking about me behind my back, when I thought we were just having a friendly conversation. "I've never known anyone that hasn't been to university and got a degree". Well whoopideydoo, ms fancy pants. The kind of person I am, my nature, I just can't understand this kind of "I'm better than you, you are below me" kind of attitude. I don't get it.
With this thread, I'm not saying I'm perfect. Certainly not. But at least I'm not a racist blowhard who ALWAYS sits on the same side of the fence in every issue. Look to Hippie_Hunter, a man I consider a true moderate, even though I disagree with him on many issues.
Despite what you may be thinking now, I do not always sit on the same side of the fence. In fact, you may remember my thread that I started where I bashed Muslims that went ape **** over some of the Pope's comments. SOME people, obviously unfamiliar with me and my general views, came into the thread and just assumed I was a nutty racist. So it works both ways, really. People not using their logic boxes in their brains and coming to their own conclusions of a situation without emotion or bias can be both conservitive and liberal.
I don't think Man-Thing realizes how big the Muslim religion is. If what Man-Thing said were truely the case - we would be ****ed. Our job should be to build bridges and to keep our moderate Muslims friends on side. We shouldn't continue to push them away with our continually disgusting, and quite frankly secterian and ignorant views towards the Muslim religion. NOBODY benifets from negative attitudes towards ALL Muslims. Indeed, only the enemy benifits from that.
Onto another subject, but only briefly.
These are my feelings on the subject. I don't know about you guys, but no matter how angry I was, I would never, ever resort to racial name calling. There is no excuse for that, ESPECIALLY in the heat of anger. For some reason, his anger justifies it in some peoples eyes? It only makes it worse, as far as I can see. As for racial jokes. It depends. Context, my friends. Context. If Kramer had a well thought out round of gags to do with race that were actually part of the stand up act, then it could be okay. Again, it depends on context. Sacha when he played Borat called a man "a genuine chocolate face", and it was hilarious. Maybe it's because Borat is only a character. Sometimes racial jokes can be pulled off, sometimes not.
And then I watched this. (warning has swearing and racism in it) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNlrOx6GCFA Before this I had only listened to the audio. The audio seems so much worse, but watching this... it's clear he's just pissed off with the hecklers, and trying to make fun of the whole thing. Maybe I'm wrong, it's really hard to read the context of it, but it does seem like he tries and fails to control the situation once the n word comes out of his mouth. I'm not even American, and I've had enough of the double standard. Once Kramer said the n word, everyone in the audience gasped. Kramer is screwed. Look, the guy has apologized. It's IMPOSSIBLE to know his mind at the time. So I mean, yeah he lost control, but whether or not he's a racist is too difficult to say. This shouldn't be held against him forever.
Um... what else...
Yeah, my jury duty. No longer on the murder case. Judge said there was too much administrative stuff to sort out and didn't want us on standby for weeks on end, so he just let us go. Then I got picked for another jury. A burgulary this time. Much lower profile case, especially since nothing was actually stolen. The case started monday, and I'm 99% sure it will end tomorrow. We've heard all the evidence, the prosecution and defense summations, and we've only to hear the judge's summation. It's been VERY interesting. Quite dramatic at times. The defense lawyer is very good, and really put one of the cops that interviewed the defendant on the spot. In fact, the cop went completley off topic and started talking about the troubles and said "the reason this country is in the state its in is..." then the judge cut him off. I wish he didn't, I wanted to know what he was gonna say. Very juicy stuff. The jury has pretty much made up their minds. I'll let you know tomorrow.
My final thought. Anyone that breaks out an "official" handbook to get stats (fighting ability 3, that type of thing) in an argument about character abilities and vs arguments is just an *******.
As I'm sure every last one of you know, I was wrongfully baninated from your presence for the last week. During that time I could only read the threads and not participate. This has caused a deal of frustration with me. So much so, that I had a long and lenghty post planned out in particular for the thread about the Dutch government banning Burkas. But my ideas for that became so complex, I decided I would post a more general thread encompassing more of my personal thoughts and feelings, which I know you all care deeply about.
First of all. Let's talk about the idea of banning Burkas, and take a look at the arguments against Burkas. I feel frustrated, because the obvious hasn't been pointed out to those who think Burkas should be banned - and the obvious is staring them right in the face.
blind fury said:
That was blind fury's argument. We'll call this the "burkahs are oppressive" argument. Who among you can recognise the inherent contradiction in blind fury's argument? Well, if you know the answer, give yourself a big golden star!! The contradiction is.... it's a thread about banning Burkahs. Do I really need to go more into that?
"The veil is womens liberation". blind fury's question was, how is a burkah liberating? Well, I won't pretend to know the intentions of the woman in that picture. It's possible that she recognised that there is some hostility towards those that would wear the veil. So I'd imagine that this woman's statement is that it's liberating because she can wear it. In other words, she has the choice. Taking away that choice is where the real oppression lies - anyone can recognise that, even the most die hard of republicans. More thoughts on THAT later, and my frustration with certain members of the Hype.
Short sighted argument number two - "It's not required as part of their religion". Whether it is or isn't is entirely irrelevant. It's a piece of clothing. It doesn't necessitate a religious need in order to wear it. Don't be stupid. At the very least anyway, it's a cultural thing. And that should be respected.
"It's a security risk and covers up facial features". I love this phrase - (probably not exactly right) He who sacrafices freedom for security deserves niether freedom nor security. This is what I say. If you wanna ban stuff that covers your face, fine. But don't be a hypocrite about it and ban everything that applies.
And you might aswell ban Halloween while you're at it.
And of course, nuns and priests outfits can (and have been) cunning disguises for those that would do harm.
So I mean... don't be a hypocrite or an idiot.
I have my own personal experiences of encountering people that choose to wear veils, and I have to wonder how many people that want to ban it actually know people that wear them. I tell you, when I was travelling around Europe, I saw alot of girls wearing burkahs. And they were hot. I kid you not. There was this one girl who wore a pink face veil, and tight jeans. Christ! And if they're wearing all black... so what. If you're intimidated by people that wear burkahs, maybe that is your problem. And maybe you should just stay indoors for the rest of your life. If it makes you uncomfortable, you're just going to have to deal with it. Emo kids make me uncomfortable. Goths, punks, hippies, I hate lots of people. It's safe to say everyone my age and younger, I hate how they all dress. Am I gonna ban it? No.
Let's turn to another point of argument. I really have to ask (and I expect answers in responses), who would benifet from burkahs being banned? What would be gained? What good would it do?
I'll tell you what it would do. In these times that we're living in, it's vital that we get moderate Muslims on side! Am I right or am I right? Yeah. I'm right. So why on Earth are there people out there who want to make war with the culture of Islam? How can it be a good thing to effectively tell Muslims "we don't like your culture here". Are we trying to turn moderate Muslims into angrier moderates who might potentially become extremists, or do we want them to be our friends? Deliver the right ****ing message!
So there you have it. It's clear to see that banning burkahs has NO, zero, zilch benifets, and will only have NEGATIVE consequences.
Now onto something that I was talking about earlier. Members of the hype that frustrate me. Look at Hippie_Hunter. Hippie_Hunter is a true moderate. I'm not kidding, the guy is great and very intelligent, and the rest of you republicans would do well to pay attention to him. He doesn't bleat on and on, rooting for "his side" just because it's his "team", like some of you do. I'm serious, some of you disgust me. Namely a certain member who likes to illustrate his points by putting thigns in bold. Your party is NOT a religion. Stop treating it like one. It just seems to me that people on this board, and people throughout the world too of course, say they agree with things just because thats what their "team" agrees with. Like the whole burkah thing. Any logical thinking person can see the inherint bull**** in wanting to ban burkahs. Americans that supposedly love freedom should be able to see that more clearly than others. There are members of this board who openly admit to voting BNP, there are members of the board who openly admit to wanting only pure white blood Presidents, and so on and so on. So maybe I shouldn't be surprised that the same people, time and time again, paint a "us vs them" picture. And I'm fed up with it. Why can't you just look at a situation from the point of view of a human being instead of a robot thats either Democrate or Republican? Do illustrate my point even further, i'd like to point out blind fury's posts during the "Muslims asked to leave plane" thread.
blind fury said:
To compare Muslims "praying too loudly" in an airport to a hitchhiker wearing a hockey mask is ridiculous. It seems to me, certain members say any old bull****, no matter how stupid, in a lame attempt to defend their "side". A true moderate would recognise that the men involved in that airport incident got ****ed over. To even attempt to say "they shouldn't have brought attention to themselves" is a clear indication that YOU have issues. What do you want them to do? Not pray and dress in jeans and "I love the US!!" t-shirts??
Man-Thing said:
That's a fair comment. The argument can be made that racial profiling is necassery in some instances. After all, what is the likelyhood an old woman is gonna bomb a plane? However, when you're at an airport, surely you have to realize that there are going to be ALL kinds of people there. Weird Jewish guys with big beards, a weirdo group of fat guys going to a comic con, and Muslims that take time out to pray 'cause they pray 5 times a day. There's profiling, and then there's being overly suspicious and wasting everyones time and effort.
This is a case of people not watching the right news stations. I saw plenty of leaders and representatives from the Muslim community talking about how horrible 9/11 was. To suggest the Muslim community in general doesn't care is fantasy. So my point is, I'd like for some members of the hype to excercise logic and not to seem to come off so... extreme right wing. I mean, I saw one poster refer to another poster like this in a thread not so long ago... "That's not surprising coming from a Muslim", which is really disgraceful.
How can a person say the following in a thread and not get banned outright?
Dangerous said:
I want to talk about my own personal thoughts and philosophy. I was sitting in a bar in Berlin just 4 or so weeks ago. I was a little drunk, and feeling a little nostalgic. I was keeping a book of "memoirs" of my journey around Europe. I had met so many nice people that only strengthened my believes in some things and opened my eyes to other things. So I wrote about what I was feeling in my book. Here it is... drunk while I wrote it...
"Commonality. I believe in a sort of commonality between men. All men. I believe that most men, whether they can put a word to it or not, believe in more or less the same thing. Commonality. Or, to put it another way, comradery. To meet a stranger, shake his hand, and ask who he is and where he comes from.
Like in an old fashioned way. Like in an old fashioned way. The way in which you can walk down the street, see an old man you've never seen before, and he'll tip his hat, or say hello. And you say hello back.
There is a courtesy to it. But there is something else, something deeper. There is a feeling that a man has sometimes when he meets another, that they could have been good friends in a past life.
You say hello, ask them who they are and where they come from. And never do you assume you are better, or worse than him. Not because of background, employment, education, or religion, or anything. You have a commonality with him. All men are not equal. But we are not much different from each other".
It would be great if one of you could tell me what the hell I was talking about, 'cause I sure don't know. Upon reflection on writing that, I think that maybe most people don't believe what I believe. Alot of people have to feel that they are better or above other people. Well, we ALL feel that... to a certain extent. But what I feel is, is that just because one guy went to Oxford and another guy didn't do further education at all, that doesn't make the Oxford guy a better person. But there are people that feel differently. I happened to meet a person while travelling who thought she was better because she had higher education. I feel bad enough around chicks as it is without one making me feel small. It went like this - Seamus (the guy who travelled with me) and I went to a bar in Poland, Krakow. We met two English women. They were a bit old for us to be picking up, we were just chatting. Seamus disappeared for a bit to go to the bathroom, and I was chatting away to the younger of the women. I thought we were just talking, having a good laugh. I mean, things she said came off as big headed and snobish, but I took her as ironic/sarcastic and rolled with it. She kept saying stuff like "when are you gonna get a real job?" and kept asking questions that implied I was a waste, basically. But as I said, I took it as a joke, and even said "you're a big snob aren't ya" with a grin on my face. But Seamus came back, I went to the toilet, and when I got back Seamus was saying to them "you've offended me alot" and said to me that we should go. I got my coat and asked what that was all about. The woman I had been talking to had been talking about me behind my back, when I thought we were just having a friendly conversation. "I've never known anyone that hasn't been to university and got a degree". Well whoopideydoo, ms fancy pants. The kind of person I am, my nature, I just can't understand this kind of "I'm better than you, you are below me" kind of attitude. I don't get it.
With this thread, I'm not saying I'm perfect. Certainly not. But at least I'm not a racist blowhard who ALWAYS sits on the same side of the fence in every issue. Look to Hippie_Hunter, a man I consider a true moderate, even though I disagree with him on many issues.
Despite what you may be thinking now, I do not always sit on the same side of the fence. In fact, you may remember my thread that I started where I bashed Muslims that went ape **** over some of the Pope's comments. SOME people, obviously unfamiliar with me and my general views, came into the thread and just assumed I was a nutty racist. So it works both ways, really. People not using their logic boxes in their brains and coming to their own conclusions of a situation without emotion or bias can be both conservitive and liberal.
Man-Thing said:
I don't think Man-Thing realizes how big the Muslim religion is. If what Man-Thing said were truely the case - we would be ****ed. Our job should be to build bridges and to keep our moderate Muslims friends on side. We shouldn't continue to push them away with our continually disgusting, and quite frankly secterian and ignorant views towards the Muslim religion. NOBODY benifets from negative attitudes towards ALL Muslims. Indeed, only the enemy benifits from that.
Onto another subject, but only briefly.
Matt said:
These are my feelings on the subject. I don't know about you guys, but no matter how angry I was, I would never, ever resort to racial name calling. There is no excuse for that, ESPECIALLY in the heat of anger. For some reason, his anger justifies it in some peoples eyes? It only makes it worse, as far as I can see. As for racial jokes. It depends. Context, my friends. Context. If Kramer had a well thought out round of gags to do with race that were actually part of the stand up act, then it could be okay. Again, it depends on context. Sacha when he played Borat called a man "a genuine chocolate face", and it was hilarious. Maybe it's because Borat is only a character. Sometimes racial jokes can be pulled off, sometimes not.
And then I watched this. (warning has swearing and racism in it) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNlrOx6GCFA Before this I had only listened to the audio. The audio seems so much worse, but watching this... it's clear he's just pissed off with the hecklers, and trying to make fun of the whole thing. Maybe I'm wrong, it's really hard to read the context of it, but it does seem like he tries and fails to control the situation once the n word comes out of his mouth. I'm not even American, and I've had enough of the double standard. Once Kramer said the n word, everyone in the audience gasped. Kramer is screwed. Look, the guy has apologized. It's IMPOSSIBLE to know his mind at the time. So I mean, yeah he lost control, but whether or not he's a racist is too difficult to say. This shouldn't be held against him forever.
Um... what else...
Yeah, my jury duty. No longer on the murder case. Judge said there was too much administrative stuff to sort out and didn't want us on standby for weeks on end, so he just let us go. Then I got picked for another jury. A burgulary this time. Much lower profile case, especially since nothing was actually stolen. The case started monday, and I'm 99% sure it will end tomorrow. We've heard all the evidence, the prosecution and defense summations, and we've only to hear the judge's summation. It's been VERY interesting. Quite dramatic at times. The defense lawyer is very good, and really put one of the cops that interviewed the defendant on the spot. In fact, the cop went completley off topic and started talking about the troubles and said "the reason this country is in the state its in is..." then the judge cut him off. I wish he didn't, I wanted to know what he was gonna say. Very juicy stuff. The jury has pretty much made up their minds. I'll let you know tomorrow.
My final thought. Anyone that breaks out an "official" handbook to get stats (fighting ability 3, that type of thing) in an argument about character abilities and vs arguments is just an *******.
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