New Joe Fridays Week 30

[Darthphere]

http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays30.html

 

[GNR]

The Wrecking Crew??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh hellz yea!

Initiative looks awesome.

 

[Darthphere]

I know everyone is going to complain about Civil War: Fallen Son, but its an intriguing concept.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I know everyone is going to complain about Civil War: Fallen Son, but its an intriguing concept.

I disagree. I too find it an intriguing concept. Though it really isn't boding well for Aunt May or Mary Jane since Spider-Man's issue deals with depression.

Judging from that cover of the Initiative it looks like a few of those 12 pardons will be taken by the Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Patriot, Wiccan, Hulkling, Vision, Speed, and Kate. And I am quite interested in seeing what superhero teams will be created.

 

[Darthphere]

I disagree. I too find it an intriguing concept. Though it really isn't boding well for Aunt May or Mary Jane since Spider-Man's issue deals with depression.

It could be Tony though. Peter would be depressed about turning his back on him and him dying in battle would serve to that extent. Though, I doubt Tony dies, unless he fakes his death again or something.

 

[Citizen_Kaine]

Hey, someone actually appreciates Mach IV other than me(new respect for Cheungt

 

[hippy fascist]

ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN #108
Written by BRIAN MICHAEL BENDIS
Penciled by MARK BAGLEY
Cover by MARK BAGLEY & RICHARD ISANOVE
“ULTIMATE KNIGHTS”
Ultimate Daredevil’s plan to bring down the Kingpin—permanently—kicks into gear, but Peter Parker has more immediate worries when an armed and masked vigilante bursts into Midtown High School looking for Spider-Man! Who is this man called Ronin and what does he want with our beleaguered web-spinner? Part 3 (of 5)
32 PGS./Rated A …$2.99


And there I was thinking ultimate spiderman couldn't get any worse

SOOOO glad I dropped this book!

That's three times bendis has used this lame plot device so far ​

 

[Zaptoitnow]

Mystery "Man", sure...

Fool me once...

 

[Dread]

Before I get on a usual "pick at some of Joe Q's statements from afar", I'll note the positive things from this week's JOE FRIDAYS.

- Glad to see that Jo Chen will still be providing covers on the Whedon/Ryan run of RUNAWAYS. Chen's one of the best in the biz and I'm glad those classic covers are staying. #25 shows all of the current team alive, which could blow BKV's ending, but frankly I don't care, because I don't want anymore of them to die. Plus, covers are hardly representative of internal content these days.

- The cover to Slott & Caselli's THE INITIATIVE looks cool. However, I think that the one shot with the same name should have been retitled. It's confusing.

- OMEGA FLIGHT and THE LONERS look awesome.

- Does that blurb about the new NAMOR series give away some of what happens in CW #7 or FRONTLINE #11? Regardless, the premise it interesting.

- I do agree with the sentiment that it's unfair to claim Marvel specifically targets their gay characters to torture, multilate, or kill, when they do that to even more of their STRAIGHT characters. It's a sense of "thinking like a hammer, seeing nails" to me. Besides, the fact that all the gay characters in YA/RUNAWAYS got taken is more to do with their heritage and convience than their sexuality; the Warden of the Cube deals with aliens and Karolina, Xavin, and Hulkling all are either aliens or have an alien heritage (Hulkling being the son of a Kree and a Skrull). Wiccan was just convience; he was defeated, and the Cube wasn't going to just leave 'im. So, I agree with Joe here.

- Joe Q seems to hint that Spider-Man may stay married, but only because "getting him divorced/unmarried is worse than staying that way". That hints that, for once, Joe's Marvel isn't seeking a double-negative, like what has become of Speedball, and that is encouraging.

Now, onto some negatives:

- So, just because Frank "Cheesecake" Cho is on art, Bendis is making Ultron a hot female? Talk about PANDERING to the artist and the audience. Plus, Bendis will probably write "her" as an emotionless, savage, efficient, brutal killing/fighting machine, and that'll be totally accurate...until you remember that is exactly how he has written every female character in costume with a codename in USM, from Shadowcat to Elektra to Spider-Woman, or Echo/Ronin in NA, so it will just seem repetitive. And, again, why couldn't the NA ever face a classic Avengers villian? Why has he saved the GOOD antagonists for MIGHTY AVENGERS and given us jack **** losers for NEW AVENGERS? The only times the NEW AVENGERS actually battled an Avengers villian, they were being written by someone else. Unless you count that 2-issue sidebrawl with Wrecker, who is technically a Thor baddie and who has battled EVERYONE anyway (and he was just a side-thing to the real baddie, which was The Void).

- The sheer amount of CW material that is being planned is now officially ridiculous, especially when you consider they STILL will be using that name when the series itself is actually finished. Just make it an ongoing and be honest. Have a rotating creative membership and do it that way.

- CIVIL WAR: FALLEN SON should be retitled, CIVIL WAR: PREPETUAL ANGST. First Emoball and now this? Marvel won't rest until all of their characters are wearing black, cutting their wrists and bemoaning existance while listening to death metal. I seriously don't know why they don't just plan a mass suicide and be done with it. I know DC started this whole fad again with IDENTITY CRISIS, but good lord is Marvel teetering on overkill.

Thunderbolts, which by the way, we just got word is a complete and utter sell out!! That’s right, sold out!

Very good. However, you are counting on the fan not knowing how the direct market works. Basically, what happens is that stores around the nation order a set number of copies of a given issue for a series, and then Marvel tallies up the total and then prints THAT AMOUNT. Usually a few extra are printed in case of damages, which is routine. The only way a "sell out" really matters is when extra copies are printed anyway (something DC did a lot) and we are ACTUALLY given a number. You're the EIC, give us the full facts.

"We printed, say, 65,000 copies of Thunderbolts with 1,000 emergency spares and then for the heck of it, another 1,500. Even those 'heck of it' copies flew out!"

He didn't. And so we only have half of a story. And that is as bad as none at all. I have no doubt that you're excited about THUNDERBOLTS, but why not make us fully aware of the facts so we can be too, instead of just assuming your fans are all boobs?

JQ: My thoughts are that this would be quite insane of us to do. First and foremost, without revealing a thing about the ending, I absolutely guarantee, that the ending of Civil War is the ending that we came up with that fateful day that Joss joined us at our summit over a year ago. No changes whatsoever. Also, you have to use logic. We’ve been working on Civil War aftermath books for many months now, even if we were stupid enough to change the ending because someone predicted it on the Interfret, we wouldn’t be able to.

But, to that, let me add- - it is creative suicide to change the ending of a story, any story, once you’ve commenced working on it. It’s especially bad when you do it because of fan pressure or because a person guessed. So, no, that’s not happening in Civil War, so let the fans have fun trying to figure it out, it’s all good and makes the suspense that much more. [laughs].

Comments:
1). Nice how you set up Whedon to take the fall from Millar if the ending to CW sucks. I bet he loves that.
2). "Interfret"? Imagine if the EIC of Universal called moviegoers, "the muddled masses". And he wonders where he gets the impression that he takes fans for granted comes from. All criticism is bad criticism I guess, unless it's from WIZARD, which long ago did away with that kind of thing.
3). Nice dig at DC for ARMAGGEDON 2001, where they changed the ending and ruined the story because word got out. Seriously. And now they're trying to retroactively "fix" it and muddle things further. DC deserved a rub for that one.

The only item on your list that's a genuine mistake is the turn-around on Iron Man's take on the prison being temporary or permanent between Amazing and Civil War, and that was simply a miscommunication between JMS and Mark. And even within that, from a story point of view I can rationalize Iron Man telling Spidey that the prison is a permanent measure in order to try to scare him back away from doing what he's thinking of doing.

Why is it a miscommunication when an editor, such as yourself, is supposed to check for things like this? This is YOUR JOB. Instead you pass the buck to the writers, who admittedly in the age of cell phones, emails, pages, and instant messages, can't find the time to do that. And notice there is no statement to "see it never happens again, because this is our A-game event and we have to put in the extra 110% for this". Nada. Mistake happens and it seems as there's a collective shrug from the top on down, and nothing is learned, no steps are taken to resolve it. Just a "akuna matata" approach. That in a nutshell is part of the problem of Joe Q's tenure, because this approach means mistakes are repeated, creators believe deadlines are optional, and so on. I know if I was called on an outright error at work, I'd own up and promise that it'd never happen again. And I'm sure the work atmosphere wouldn't be "oh, well, such is life" answer. Marvel these days justifies many things by saying, "we're a business" but yet many times doesn't act like one.

:The footnote boxes were very important to our business when our business was primarily on the newsstand and stories were much more of a continuous soap opera and not constructed in story arcs. But, while they may have been informative back in the day, I find them annoying during the course of a story today. They became a sort of tradition in Marvel comics, but to me they take you out of the story.

Imagine if you will, you’re watching your favorite weekly TV show and as your enthralled in the middle of a scene suddenly they pause the action and a voice over announcer’s comes on saying, “for more info on the background behind this scene, make sure to pick up the Season 3 DVD set, disc 4, chapter 11.”

I would be first, infuriated, and secondly infuriated again because it takes me out of the scene. Now, imagine that happening in the middle of your favorite movie. So, while we haven’t banned them altogether, we encourage our editors and writers that, when possible, if you need a footnote, add the asterisk and then place the footnote in the letter’s page.

Also, all of our books come with a handy dandy recap page that should give you all the info you need. And the final thing to consider is that the footnotes would be redundant and kind of annoying in the trade paperback of the story.

So, something like that would infuriate you, and not, say, that writer from LOST abandoning your ballyhoo'd Ultimate mini, or ASTONISHING shipping 4-7 issues a year while Cassaday feels inclined to draw for HUNTER/KILLER, MAD MAGAZINE and PLANETARY, or comics from November-December having a ludicrious 20+ pages of ads after you promised in 2005 that wouldn't happen again? And as footnotes were standard pretty much until you became EIC, that means some 40 years of Marvel comics infuriated you. Baloney.

Firstly, TV shows are not the same medium as comics. Comics are a silent medium. A footnote is a lot easier to overlook if you wish to than an announcer's voice, and you bloody well know that.

Secondly, RQ asked the footnote question in relation to crossover events like CW, in which chapters are branched out across many titles, not simply past issues of one ongoing. You completely ignored this point in your answer, for a specific reason. People tend to omit responding to a point if they have no sound rebuttal. RQ said footnotes would be handy for tie-ins and you, Joe, implied that he meant a footnote about past material in a TV show or movie, a past scene of a solo, and that was not the question. I think they call this a strawman arguement?

Thirdly, the recap page tends to recap stuff that happened in prior issues and is usually very, very vague. If the interior is referencing a specific event that happened in a tie-in, it is almost worthless.

Fourthly, having 1 page of story followed by 4-5 of ads or an EMUSIC insert clogging the staples that I have to fold down or be careful about takes ME the hell out of a story far worse than 17 footnotes in a stack, but nevermind.

And finally, yes, having the references in the back of the letters page IS a fine idea. But not every writer does this, and some titles don't have a letters page (like a mini). Do you have a way to settle this? An innovative idea to stick these references in the back of every story, much like in CW: CASUALTIES OF WAR (which worked well)? Or once again you fail to come up with an innovative idea and instead expect fans to grin and bare a flaw? See, Joe, leaders INNOVATE. They see a flaw and do their damnedest to fix it. If the competition isn't doing it, that isn't seen as an excuse, but an ADVANTAGE. The more I see you shrug your shoulders at problems instead of be innovative with solutions, the more I believe Joe's acendance to the EIC's chair came not due to personal skill, but upon finding one of 5 Golden Tickets in a comic book and then outlasting the other 4 kids to inherit the shop from Willy Wonka (or Bob Harras, whichever you like).

- So Ultimate Ronin appears in USM #108? Okay, Bendis is officially in "can only cannibilize my own past material" that Chris Claremont has been in, only it took Chris about 20 years and Bendis maybe 5. He needs a sabbatical...badly. I mean, "enters Midtown High"? Yet another unmasking, or identity known? How many times has this happened in USM? URGH, I really should leave after CLONE, but ULTIMATE KNIGHTS looked interesting. Until now. Another letdown coming?

Thank you, and good night. Thanks for reading yet another rant. I only do it 'cuz I care.

 

[Darthphere]

Told you so.

 

[Dread]

I mean, what is Bendis thinking? He's going to rehash Ronin in NEW AVENGERS and ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN at almost the same time? Can't he let that dead horse die? Or is his motto, "keep reusing the same plot devices, over and over, until I get it right or my fans tear their eyeballs from their heads, whichever comes first"? If ever there was a writer who symbolized how Marvel "stays the course" with mistakes, uses DC as an excuse not to innovate, and keeps doing the same things over and over and over again and keeps expecting a different result, it is Brian Micheal Bendis, their #1 writer and inevitable EIC himself (in the future the gig is his to lose).

Learn your lesson, for F's sake. Get a co-writer, go on vacation, get your plots from 1,000 monkeys on 1,000 typewriters, ANYTHING to keep from reusing the same devices that failed the first time over and over. Move on. Do something new. Let them die and build atop.

 

[Darthphere]

I agree with the Ronin part. Thats just ridiculous.

 

[Tropico]

Wow, that Dread guy wrties a lot I didn't read it is a lot of bad things. Joe Quesada has done a lot of good stuff for Marvel and it rules over Dc now because of him your too cinical and maybe should of complained less. if you dont have anything good to say you shouldn't say nothing didn't anyone learn you that? I know I'm being a hepocryte but no one said anything and somene had too.

 

[Darthphere]

Wow, that Dread guy wrties a lot I didn't read it is a lot of bad things. Joe Quesada has done a lot of good stuff for Marvel and it rules over Dc now because of him your too cinical and maybe should of complained less. if you dont have anything good to say you shouldn't say nothing didn't anyone learn you that? I know I'm being a hepocryte but no one said anything and somene had too.

Are you still doing your noob impression?

 

[Kevin]

edit

 

[Kevin]

You know, each week these get worst. I didn't even read it yet.

 

[Muze]

I mean, what is Bendis thinking? He's going to rehash Ronin in NEW AVENGERS and ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN at almost the same time?

you don't want to see him out of his comfort zone, believe me. bad things happen.

 

[Darthphere]

you don't want to see him out of his comfort zone, believe me. bad things happen.

Not really. All his good stuff is pretty much his most original material.

 

[Dread]

Wow, that Dread guy wrties a lot I didn't read it is a lot of bad things. Joe Quesada has done a lot of good stuff for Marvel and it rules over Dc now because of him your too cinical and maybe should of complained less. if you dont have anything good to say you shouldn't say nothing didn't anyone learn you that? I know I'm being a hepocryte but no one said anything and somene had too.

Don't worry, someone usually makes fun of me when I'm being cynical soon enough.

Don't worry about being a hypocrite, I believe everyone is to some degree. Some are flamers and some keep it so low you can't see it. Type what you feel.

It does seem like I whine more than I praise sometimes. That is why I tried to put some positive first. I mean I honestly think as a guy, Joe Q is cool to hang around and is probably nice. But he's supposed to be an EIC and that entails being more than nice, but getting results, and I hate to see him shrug off certain problems rather than vowing to solve them and then doing so.

Yes, Marvel is outdoing DC soundly, but it has for years. INFINITE CRISIS was the best DC could muster and they won maybe 1 month out of 12 in 2006. They don't have much left. 52 will be over by summer, the ALL-STAR books are sporatic and Morrison can't be on BATMAN forever. So I tend to take Marvel outselling DC for granted.

And Marvel has done a lot of good things. I highlighted many titles coming up that sound good. Perhaps the wasteland that CW leaves will provide fresh soil for new growth. But that remains to be seen.

 

[Darthphere]

I still think CW: Fallen Son is an intriguing concept and something fresh and new, even if you dont admit it. Not sure if I'm picking it up, but i'll keep a look out. It reminds me of the individual one shots after the initial 5 issue Sentry mini-series.

 

[Tropico]

Don't worry, someone usually makes fun of me when I'm being cynical soon enough.

Don't worry about being a hypocrite, I believe everyone is to some degree. Some are flamers and some keep it so low you can't see it. Type what you feel.

It does seem like I whine more than I praise sometimes. That is why I tried to put some positive first. I mean I honestly think as a guy, Joe Q is cool to hang around and is probably nice. But he's supposed to be an EIC and that entails being more than nice, but getting results, and I hate to see him shrug off certain problems rather than vowing to solve them and then doing so.

Yes, Marvel is outdoing DC soundly, but it has for years. INFINITE CRISIS was the best DC could muster and they won maybe 1 month out of 12 in 2006. They don't have much left. 52 will be over by summer, the ALL-STAR books are sporatic and Morrison can't be on BATMAN forever. So I tend to take Marvel outselling DC for granted.

And Marvel has done a lot of good things. I highlighted many titles coming up that sound good. Perhaps the wasteland that CW leaves will provide fresh soil for new growth. But that remains to be seen.

Im sorry I didnt read your whole essay so if it had more good positive stuff it didn't jump at me, I apologize. but you still write like they pay you for the word even when you answre me wich I thanx you 4.

 

[Dread]

I still think CW: Fallen Son is an intriguing concept and something fresh and new, even if you dont admit it. Not sure if I'm picking it up, but i'll keep a look out. It reminds me of the individual one shots after the initial 5 issue Sentry mini-series.

Basing an entire series with the 5 stages of Depression as a motif is just sounding like an OD of angst and I am not sure I am in the mood for that. This is the kind of crap GLA would parody.

What next? How about a series based on the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anon.? I could see Millar writing it, Iron Man starring and it selling 200,000 copies.

Or a series based on the names of the 7 dwarves, that all star Puck?

I'm not saying it won't be good, because Marvel does angst well. I'm just kind of tired of it, especially after Emoball. The angst mill has been all but exhausted for the past 10 years methinks. There's more to life than hating it, at least I hope. 'Cause lord knows I do.

However, LONERS and Dan Slott's series can't come fast enough. And OMEGA FLIGHT is looking awesome.

 

[SouLeSS]

I can't believe I read Dreads whole post. And I can't believe even more that I literally agreed on every point. Glad to know I'm not the only one that thinks Joe Q really needs to figure out what he's going to say before he says it.

I swear, it's like he just says the first thing that comes to his head. I mean, thats good sometimes, but not when it comes to saying along the lines of "I dont like the footnotes in comics and I think they're distracting". I mean, ****, when I was reading the original AoA with all the loose comics out I was all over the place because literally every issue had a "see this issue for why this happened" crap. And it was DAMN helpful. But then like a week later I found a chronological listing and read it all in that order and the story made a lot more sense, but still.

 

[Dread]

Im sorry I didnt read your whole essay so if it had more good positive stuff it didn't jump at me, I apologize. but you still write like they pay you for the word even when you answre me wich I thanx you 4.

I just go on a lot.

The positive stuff was at the top of the post.

I can't believe I read Dreads whole post. And I can't believe even more that I literally agreed on every point. Glad to know I'm not the only one that thinks Joe Q really needs to figure out what he's going to say before he says it.

I swear, it's like he just says the first thing that comes to his head. I mean, thats good sometimes, but not when it comes to saying along the lines of "I dont like the footnotes in comics and I think they're distracting". I mean, ****, when I was reading the original AoA with all the loose comics out I was all over the place because literally every issue had a "see this issue for why this happened" crap. And it was DAMN helpful. But then like a week later I found a chronological listing and read it all in that order and the story made a lot more sense, but still.

Exactly! For a crossover event where you have to get issues from many series and mini's, they ARE helpful. Marvel put out 2 checklists, but with the delays, and the ever increasing amount of mini's, one shots, and tie ins due to said delays, those checklists become useless and footnotes, or at least 1 page set in the back of every issue to list references like CASUALTIES OF WAR did, are helpful. But that means one less ad. Right now Joe Q leaves that to writer choice vs. order a mandate on it and I feel it's a mistake. I mean if you want fans to read all of these things, make it easier.

 

[Kevin]

Ok, I read JFs and All of Dread's post. My eye officially hurt now.