Comics Official JEAN GREY/PHOENIX Discussion Thread

[javon]

I think this is sugarcoating their past dumb mistakes of making her uber powerful and thus making her completely and utterly useless and pointless in an X-Men storyline.

Thats what I got

 

[Kevin]

I miss jean.

 

[Havok83]

I miss jean.

Me too. Marvel just needs to announce the next book in the "Endsong" trilogy. I think thats where she might make her next appearance

 

[Kevin]

And I would so buy it. The only reason I bought Endsong was because of Jean. I stayed away from warsong because it had no Jean. Hell, I can't afford it right now, but I buy it Anyway. X-men FC is because of Jean, and it's a great book.

 

[Nature's Rising]

^Warsong also had hideous art. Eurgh.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

^Warsong also had hideous art. Eurgh.

Still waaayyy better than Adjectiveless, NXM, CW:X and current UXM...

 

[Kevin]

in your opinion, of course.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Nah, not really.

I get the whole 'art is sujective' thingy, but, come on.

That'd be like me saying Seagal is a better actor than, say, Meryl Streep. And I like (old) Seagal flicks a whole lot more than Streep's.

 

[Kevin]

Yeah, yes really. Because people have different tastes, there's no possibility that some art is correctly better than another. I will admit, though, that the current ramos-x-men art is just bad.

 

[Kevin]

Edit

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I miss jean.

I don't honestly. Every time she comes back it just serves to kick more dirt on the grave of Claremont's original Phoenix Saga. They aren't gonna to repeat the success of her character, and they aren't going to write a better Phoenix Saga. As far as I am concerned Quesada is in the right by saying he won't bring her back.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

This is something editor Nick Lowe recently said about Jean Grey...



Here is a quote from Mike Carey...



So we are just trying to get X-Men and Jean Grey fans to send Marvel friendly creative letters to inspire them to bring Jean back and to do meaningful new stories with her while continuing some of her ongoing subplots.

She had a meaningful story....

...

It was meaningful. I shed a little tear everytime I read it, it's beautiful...and perfect...and everything a comic should be.

Why do you, honestly, want her back? And don't say because she is Scott's wife. Because that's the only ho-hum purpose she has served for the last two decades. She was a character that was a crutch for people who didn't know how to write Cyclops.

Why do, honestly, want them to beat her like a dead horse over and over again? I mean do we need to keep bring back Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy and Harry Osbourne to do meaningful subplots with them? Or how about Bucky....with...ah nevermind. But the point is certain characters have served their purpose and been taken to their logical conclusions. Jean is one of them.

I don't mind her wandering the Universe as a cosmic entity who rarely interacts, like Living Tribunal, Death or the Stranger. But please...please don't bring her back so we have to sit through another painful love triangle, hapless Scott, Phoenix burns and destroys crapfest.

Bringing her back serves no purpose other than to beat dead storylines over the head.

 

[ChaosJosh]

Well I'd like Jean Grey to return because she's my favorite character and I only buy X-Men books for her. Right now I do not buy them (I do look at advanced copies though) but I'd be more than willing to buy stories that features her.

Jean Grey is a very good and interesting character. Besides her look and powers there is her Phoenix aspect that pretty much makes her a universal archetype.

I like that Jean's stories tend to be over the top dramatic with themes such as love, death, rebirth, sacrifice, and transcendence.

Jean can be Phoenix without it being a plot point. It can just be her iconic imagery like it was during Revolution.

Jean's Phoenix story during Morrison's run was great though and the best they've done with the concept since the Dark Phoenix storyline.

Theres more to do with her such as exploring her White Phoenix identity, explore her childhood, have her react to her families massacre, and have her interact with various characters.

Theres also the fact that she is suppose to return. Morrison and Pak both set her up to return again later.

I don't want Jean with Scott either. They were boring together.

Now that Scott is being fleshed out away from Jean, I'd like Jean to get the same treatment.

And how come fans say that Jean being Phoenix is beating a dead horse but they don't say the same thing about them giving Rachel the Phoenix over and over again as well. Rachel went to the future to be Mother Askani and died. And they brought her back too. Rachel in Brubakers run was becoming corrupted by the Phoenix Force and needlessly killed a bunch of Shiar as well.

If they are going to use a rip off, they might as well bring back the real deal anyways imho.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Jean Grey is a very good and interesting character. Besides her look and powers there is her Phoenix aspect that pretty much makes her a universal archetype.

That's *exactly* the problem for quite a few of us.

And how come fans say that Jean being Phoenix is beating a dead horse but they don't say the same thing about them giving Rachel the Phoenix over and over again as well. Rachel went to the future to be Mother Askani and died. And they brought her back too. Rachel in Brubakers run was becoming corrupted by the Phoenix Force and needlessly killed a bunch of Shiar as well.

If they are going to use a rip off, they might as well bring back the real deal anyways imho.

Mmm.

From what I've read and seen, Jean sceptics dislike Rach too. Or, more to the point, any incarnation of the Pheonix Force. There's no 'Rach is roxxor but Jean suxxor' conspiracy.

 

[Havok83]

Jean should have never been killed off in Morrison's run

 

[The Englishman]

Jean should have never been killed off in Morrison's run

So True, bring back Jean! Her death was really pointless.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Well I'd like Jean Grey to return because she's my favorite character and I only buy X-Men books for her. Right now I do not buy them (I do look at advanced copies though) but I'd be more than willing to buy stories that features her.

Well then buy First Class, she is in that. Or Ultimate X-Men, because she is in that too. But don't make other books suffer because you want "your fav character" back. This is why most fanboys, honestly, couldn't write comics. Because they'd just end up retconning things they disliked or rehashing their old favorite storylines.

Jean Grey is a very good and interesting character. Besides her look and powers there is her Phoenix aspect that pretty much makes her a universal archetype.

That's the problem I have with her. She was a bland character, until Claremont made her a Universial avatar of the Phoenix...and then drew that story to it's logical conclusion. Now when she comes back it's just an excuse to beat that character like a dead horse.

I like that Jean's stories tend to be over the top dramatic with themes such as love, death, rebirth, sacrifice, and transcendence.

Any character can have a story that thematically deals with those things. But "Death" and "Rebirth" especially get overplayed in comics. I don't want Jean, a character whose best moments come in death, to keep coming back. It's just redundant and silly.

Jean can be Phoenix without it being a plot point. It can just be her iconic imagery like it was during Revolution.

She's too much of a pink elephant in the room. Having a cosmic entity just sit around and play den mother to the X-Men and humble housewife to Scott is just plain silly.

Jean's Phoenix story during Morrison's run was great though and the best they've done with the concept since the Dark Phoenix storyline.

I like Morrison a lot. However, I think he was right to kill her. And I think his "Here Comes Tomorrow" ought to remain her canon return. So, in other words, she can return...a couple 100 years from now.

Theres more to do with her such as exploring her White Phoenix identity, explore her childhood, have her react to her families massacre, and have her interact with various characters.

Then do a Origins book about her. Do prequel novels, or one shots. But you don't need to bring her back into the mainstream continuity for this.

Theres also the fact that she is suppose to return. Morrison and Pak both set her up to return again later.

Morrison set her up to return in the far far off future. And Quesada said she wasn't coming back under his watch/

I don't want Jean with Scott either. They were boring together.

She can't existence separate from him, unless you are going to make her a cosmic entity with no earthbound interaction. The temptation...

Now that Scott is being fleshed out away from Jean, I'd like Jean to get the same treatment.

...to write them together is too strong. Again. Elephant in the room.

And how come fans say that Jean being Phoenix is beating a dead horse but they don't say the same thing about them giving Rachel the Phoenix over and over again as well. Rachel went to the future to be Mother Askani and died. And they brought her back too. Rachel in Brubakers run was becoming corrupted by the Phoenix Force and needlessly killed a bunch of Shiar as well.

If they are going to use a rip off, they might as well bring back the real deal anyways imho.

I'm glad Brubaker wrote her, Havok and Vulcan out of earthbound continuity for that reason. Rachel is as troublesome as Jean for me.

 

[Havok83]

Well then buy First Class, she is in that. Or Ultimate X-Men, because she is in that too. But don't make other books suffer because you want "your fav character" back. This is why most fanboys, honestly, couldn't write comics. Because they'd just end up retconning things they disliked or rehashing their old favorite storylines.

except those are not Jean. Those are AR characters who mean nothing. We want the original, the REAL Jean
.

I don't want Jean, a character whose best moments come in death, to keep coming back. It's just redundant and silly.

She's only died and come back once. Thats not including Endsong as she still isnt back. And she's had plenty of scenes and stories over the past 40 years to qualify as some of her best moments aside from the DP death

She's too much of a pink elephant in the room. Having a cosmic entity just sit around and play den mother to the X-Men and humble housewife to Scott is just plain silly.

Well you completely missed his point. The point is Jean does NOT have to be a cosmic entity. She did fine as a viable character for years without that

She can't existence separate from him, unless you are going to make her a cosmic entity with no earthbound interaction. The temptation...

Except thats exactly what Morrison set up. Especially with Scott being with Emma now, Jean's return does not necesarily mean she will have to be with him

 

[ChaosJosh]

I think this is sugarcoating their past dumb mistakes of making her uber powerful and thus making her completely and utterly useless and pointless in an X-Men storyline.

I don't think so. I think he is being sincere.

The fan who wrote him was concerned that they disliked Jean or felt like they had wrote her into a corner and Nick Lowe responded that they did not dislike Jean and in fact many of them really love the character and he also said that Jean was not a problem character.

Even Jean as Phoenix isn't uber powerful all the time.

She doesn't have to be cosmic or cosmic all the time either. She could be like she was during Revolution or the first part of New X-Men or how Rachel is and/or has been since she returned.

I don't think the addition of Jean Grey makes any book suffer.

Sure Jean can be cool in First Class and Ultimate X-Men but First Class is too silly for my tastes and I'm not as emotionally vested in the Jean of Ultimate X-Men.

I do sometimes buy them for Jean though. But I don't buy those titles regularly.

 

[Havok83]

Hey ChaosJosh, where are those last 2 pics from?

As for Jean being some cosmic entity as Phoenix, seriously the only time she has been a cosmic entity was during the original Phoenix Saga and DPS. She was pretty much grounded in Marvel reality for the enirety of the rest of her run. Even when Morrison brought back the Phoenix Force in New X-men, there was nothing cosmic about Jean or her story and didnt start acting uber powerful until the end of Planet X and even then she wasnt shown as such. Really she didnt even do anything impressive as Phoenix in that final battle. She showed up, flashed her fire effects, talked to Xorn and got killed off, when theoretically, she could have disabled him as soon as she arrived. She wasnt portrayed as all powerful especially with how simply she was killed off. I dont get what the big deal people have with using the PF as an excuse for why she shouldnt return.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Hey ChaosJosh, where are those last 2 pics from?

As for Jean being some cosmic entity as Phoenix, seriously the only time she has been a cosmic entity was during the original Phoenix Saga and DPS. She was pretty much grounded in Marvel reality for the enirety of the rest of her run. Even when Morrison brought back the Phoenix Force in New X-men, there was nothing cosmic about Jean or her story and didnt start acting uber powerful until the end of Planet X and even then she wasnt shown as such. Really she didnt even do anything impressive as Phoenix in that final battle. She showed up, flashed her fire effects, talked to Xorn and got killed off, when theoretically, she could have disabled him as soon as she arrived. She wasnt portrayed as all powerful especially with how simply she was killed off. I dont get what the big deal people have with using the PF as an excuse for why she shouldnt return.

I take it you didn't read "Here Comes Tomorrow" at all then

 

[ShadowBoxing]

except those are not Jean. Those are AR characters who mean nothing. We want the original, the REAL Jean
.

No, the Jean you talk about is an AR...the non cosmic entity, is an alternate reality Jean and has been since Claremont ended his storyline. Jean in 616 is a cosmic entity, it's part of her biology.

DCU staff writers have said much the same thing to tired fans who whine about non traditional JL lineups..."you want [the classic league] go read [Alex Ross's] Justice".

Whether or not Jean Grey is in 616 is immaterial, that is not the outlet for that character. That storyline in that particular universe has come and gone, and Jean fans can look elsewhere for their favorite character. Quesada was right to put the kibosh on Jean. She is a redundant character who only comes back to die again. Her character was great...once. But when you write a story like the Phoenix saga any attempt to bring her back is just retreading over old ground. She honestly is not that versitile a character, and while you continue to say "but Jean is teh favorite" you have yet to give one reason, logically, why she needs to be part of X-Men. So, unless it's going to add to a current storyarc, I don't wanna hear it. And I don't care if I never hear Phoenix uttered again in the MU.

Next thing you know you guys will be signing petitions to have Xavier lose his legs again...it's redundant. It's like re-scarring Two Face. The story line is too played out. Jean is played out. There I said it.

She's only died and come back once. Thats not including Endsong as she still isnt back. And she's had plenty of scenes and stories over the past 40 years to qualify as some of her best moments aside from the DP death

So, really she has died and come back twice. Which is correct. Don't muddle up things to try to strengthen your argument.

Well you completely missed his point. The point is Jean does NOT have to be a cosmic entity. She did fine as a viable character for years without that

And those years are well behind us. Unless you would purpose retconning the Phoenix, Dark Phoenix and Morrison runs out of continuity...but that in and of itself would be silly.

Except thats exactly what Morrison set up. Especially with Scott being with Emma now, Jean's return does not necesarily mean she will have to be with him

Morrison "set up" with HCT that she doesn't return. period. for a couple centuries. That was the ending of that story. Jean rearranging the timestream so she wasn't a necessary part of it. Case closed. Character arc finished. Move on.

 

[Havok83]

I take it you didn't read "Here Comes Tomorrow" at all then

HCT was an alternate future, a story in which Jean was outside of time and out of reality. That stuff he did with her was only after she died. She wasnt acting or doing any of that stuff when she was alive and active as an X-man

 

[Havok83]

No, the Jean you talk about is an AR...the non cosmic entity, is an alternate reality Jean and has been since Claremont ended his storyline. Jean in 616 is a cosmic entity, it's part of her biology.

Um wrong. The Jean I talk about is the 616 version. Dont get it twisted. Ult-Jean and FC Jean are not THE Jean nor do their stories and adventures have any bearing on the 616 universe. They cant be used as a substitute for the real thing.

DCU staff writers have said much the same thing to tired fans who whine about non traditional JL lineups..."you want [the classic league] go read [Alex Ross's] Justice".

Whether or not Jean Grey is in 616 is immaterial, that is not the outlet for that character. That storyline in that particular universe has come and gone, and Jean fans can look elsewhere for their favorite character. Quesada was right to put the kibosh on Jean. She is a redundant character who only comes back to die again. Her character was great...once. But when you write a story like the Phoenix saga any attempt to bring her back is just retreading over old ground. She honestly is not that versitile a character, and while you continue to say "but Jean is teh favorite" you have yet to give one reason, logically, why she needs to be part of X-Men. So, unless it's going to add to a current storyarc, I don't wanna hear it. And I don't care if I never hear Phoenix uttered again in the MU.

Well of course people wanting Jean around is a personal preference. Is there any character that NEEDS to be a part of the X-men lineup? They are all indispensible (sp). I feel she does have alot to add to the X-men but even so, she doesnt even need to be a regular in the X-men line. Theres plenty out there in the Marvel Universe for her to mingle in which would be new and original for her. I actually wouldnt mind if she ended up with the Avengers

So, really she has died and come back twice. Which is correct. Don't muddle up things to try to strengthen your argument.

Okay if you want to count Endsong, but Im referring to being back with the team. That has not happened yet and she's still floating around in limbo. Endsong was hardly a return.

And those years are well behind us. Unless you would purpose retconning the Phoenix, Dark Phoenix and Morrison runs out of continuity...but that in and of itself would be silly.

Well he pretty much retconned what happened with Jean since she returned out of continuity. But no I dont want that to happen to his run as it did occur. Jean can work fine with the PF or without. Personally, id prefer her without it, but thats just me

Morrison "set up" with HCT that she doesn't return. period. for a couple centuries. That was the ending of that story. Jean rearranging the timestream so she wasn't a necessary part of it. Case closed. Character arc finished. Move on.

Except case is not closed. Hence the purpose of Endsong which is presumably setting up for her to return in the next and final installment of that trilogy. Jean Grey will be back. Its only a matter of when. I think for anyone to think otherwise is a bit naive whether you like or hate the character.

 

[Cosmic Mind]

Whaaat!!!!!!!! where this those come from???????