Ohio's Supreme Court backs the firing of a creationist science teacher

[Pink Ranger]

I think it is well known that I despise creationists and religious fundamentalists, but let me pose the following questions:

- Can someone who believes in the Kennedy conspiracies (all of them) teach a standard syllabus on American history?

- Can someone who believes in socialism teach a standard business course?

- Can someone who believes Taiwan is China's property teach a standard course on Asian geography?

 

[Thundercrack85]

Except that creationism conflicts with almost (I would say every, but i am sure there is an exception) every form of science. Not just biology, but geology, cosmology, and chemistry. Those comparisons aren't the equivalent.

Now, I'm not aware of any history teacher who has an equally flawed view of history, and outright rejects... the existence of historical figures, key events, etc., but if there was, I would not want them teaching history.

There is having an opinion (e.g. China belongs to Taiwan), and then there is being objectively wrong (e.g. saying Taiwan is located in the Caribbean).

 

[The Question]

I think it is well known that I despise creationists and religious fundamentalists, but let me pose the following questions:

- Can someone who believes in the Kennedy conspiracies (all of them) teach a standard syllabus on American history?

- Can someone who believes in socialism teach a standard business course?

- Can someone who believes Taiwan is China's property teach a standard course on Asian geography?

It all depends on wether or not the present their beliefs to be more true than the proven facts that they're supposed to teach. The purpose of a science class is to teach scientific facts. It's alright for a scientist and a science teacher to believe in things that aren't proved by science as long as they don't talk about them as if they are.

Although I don't see how being a socialist would make someone unfit to teach a business course. Believing that wealth should be redistributed within a society doesn't really have much to do with the mechanics of how to run a business.

 

[Destructus86]

I'm a Christian and it seems to me like this teacher deserved to be fired because he wouldn't follow the rules. (also, I read he branded one kids arm, but not certain if that's true)

If you are going to work for a public school then you can't teach creationism. If you want to do that then go teach at a Christian school.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

It is not because you teach in a Christian school that you can teach non sense or falsities like creationism, at least in France, no idea about the US.

 

[Thundercrack85]

If it's a private school, you can teach whatever ridiculous thing you want.

All Christian schools in the US would be private by definition.

 

[NickNitro]

You live in a world where they want to take "Under God" out of the pledge of allegiance and you think its ok to teach creationism in your class?

Destruct is right, he should of taught at a Christian school.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Actually Catholics don't do creationism. That's a Protestant thing.

 

[The Question]

The Catholic church were actually huge supporters of Darwin back in the day.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Actually Catholics don't do creationism. That's a Protestant thing.

Correction: evangelical and fundamentalist protestants.

 

[Destructus86]

It is not because you teach in a Christian school that you can teach non sense or falsities like creationism, at least in France, no idea about the US.

It's Freedom of religion...if Christian schools want to teach creationism, then they should have that right. Once things like freedom of religion are removed, what's next?

But this isn't really about that. This is about someone teaching something other than what is approved by school officials. Have to follow the rules.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Just because you're religious doesn't mean you have to be stupid.

I dunno, even on a private level, I think deliberately miseducating children should be discouraged. But then that goes into some tricky legal stuff.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

It's Freedom of religion...if Christian schools want to teach creationism, then they should have that right. Once things like freedom of religion are removed, what's next?

But this isn't really about that. This is about someone teaching something other than what is approved by school officials. Have to follow the rules.

I am not talking about removing freedom of religion. Religion and scientific facts aren't mutually excursive.
I know that in the US "religion" cover a broad specter, from what I call false religion like Scientology to the three main monotheist religions, Christian, Muslim and Judaism.

Edit : I don't want to hurt someone believes, whatever her/his believe is, I live and was raised in a lay, non religious country. I am Christian by birth and I find truth in the Bible but I am also a scientific mind and human evolution can not be denied.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

You live in a world where they want to take "Under God" out of the pledge of allegiance and you think its ok to teach creationism in your class?

Destruct is right, he should of taught at a Christian school.

Hey, maybe they'll approve of him branding crosses onto students' arms with a high-voltage coil there.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

I think it is well known that I despise creationists and religious fundamentalists, but let me pose the following questions:

- Can someone who believes in the Kennedy conspiracies (all of them) teach a standard syllabus on American history?

- Can someone who believes in socialism teach a standard business course?

- Can someone who believes Taiwan is China's property teach a standard course on Asian geography?

They can believe whatever they want. Once they start to stray from teaching the school curriculum is when they run into trouble.

I knew a teacher who was a hardcore 9/11 conspiracy theorist. Once the higher ups got wind that he started teaching that stuff to his classes he was done.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Or he could just teach science in a science classroom.

See this is why I don't want people with unscientific views teaching science to kids. If you think dinosaurs and men coexisted, and that the world is 6,000 years old, you are unqualified to be a science teacher.

That is too unbelievable

 

[nouan]

That is too unbelievable

Unlike “He is the One Who has made perfectly everything He has created: He began the creation of human beings with clay, And made his progeny from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised: But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit…”?

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Unlike “He is the One Who has made perfectly everything He has created: He began the creation of human beings with clay, And made his progeny from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised: But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit…”?

6000 years is little time, and there is nothing backing it up
Now the original origin of humans as told by Allah, the reason you and I exist, is real, even with your strong disbelief in it, you see it in 3 different scriptures coming on 3 different nations in 3 different eras, and you still deny it?
Now evolution, is vague, it's vague, it doesn't explain how DNA first came to existence, or to make it simpler, how living creatures came to be

And do you even know Qura'an and Islam (the reason women have their rights, unlike your misguided belief) is the reason you have the internet you use to bash the religion and the God you make fun of? It is the constitution of Muslims, it drove Muslims to seek and discover science, and still connect it to religion, and it is the reason AlKhawarizmei discovered the rules of Algorithms, one of the bases of computers the internet, the thing you use to make fun of my religion obviously giving everyone their full rights, unlike the nonsensical mess you said in the "Muslim Ms Marvel" thread

 

[nouan]

6000 years is little time, and there is nothing backing it up
Now the original origin of humans as told by Allah, the reason you and I exist, is real, even with your strong disbelief in it, you see it in 3 different scriptures coming on 3 different nations in 3 different eras, and you still deny it?

Yes.

And do you even know Qura'an and Islam (the reason women have their rights, unlike your misguided belief) is the reason you have the internet you use to bash the religion and the God you make fun of? It is the constitution of Muslims, it drove Muslims to seek and discover science, and still connect it to religion, and it is the reason AlKhawarizmei discovered the rules of Algorithms, one of the bases of computers the internet, the thing you use to make fun of my religion obviously giving everyone their full rights, unlike the nonsensical mess you said in the "Muslim Ms Marvel" thread

I see no rights for women in majority of muslim countries. Even IF women are treated less equal because of some ancient tribalism, you can't deny that Islam supports that. Nor can you deny that women are compared to animals in some passages. Of course this is totally out of this topic, but just wanted to say this.

I think saying that we should thank allah for internet is also pretty far fetched. I think AlKhawarizmei would have discovered algorithms without religion too, so no I'm not going to give allah props for this. Besides, I would be stoned to death for saying this if we lived unders islamic rule.

 

[nouan]

Anyway, I guess we both agree that creationism should not be teached as science in science class, so that's something.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Yes.

Well, you're wrong

I see no rights for women in majority of Muslim countries.

I have no idea where you look, Malaysia is a Muslim country, maybe you should check there

Even IF women are treated less equal because of some ancient tribalism, you can't deny that Islam supports that.

Do you even know how different men and women are, and what are the full rights of women? Like they don't have to go and work for a living, they can, but they don't have to, that's fully the responsibility of man?
Do you know a woman is treated with so much respect the mother is very very important, respecting her is so much a must if you disobey her or make her sad or do anything bad to her, Allah will make things better for you once you genuinely earn her acceptance back by respecting her and treating her well, although the mother's mercy and compassion doesn't let her feel easy going angry about her progeny?
Do you have any clue how important a wife is? That she must be well selected cause taking good care of the woman is a source of happiness?
Did you read about mercy and compassion?
Do you have any clue how wrapped-up men are? We're pretty wrapped up too

Nor can you deny that women are compared to animals in some passages. Of course this is totally out of this topic, but just wanted to say this.

Do you know you are talking nonsense? Dude, I'm attached to Qura'an,my mother and my sister (the women in the family) are more attached to Qura'an than I am, and we never read the nonsense you are saying
You are wrong, get your facts right. Do you use something as bad as Google translation or something? Your citation is horridly inaccurate

I think saying that we should thank allah for internet is also pretty far fetched.

No, it's necessary and accurate

I think AlKhawarizmei would have discovered algorithms without religion too, so no I'm not going to give Allah props for this

Do you have any idea how people over the world lived before Islam coming to Arab land? Any clue? they were savages, merciless, fighting over anything or whatever reason
And then Muslims passed religion to other lands, they gave them prosperity, if not for Islam not only would you not have anything resembling the internet you use to bash Allah and religion, you'd likely be a savage hooligan

Besides, I would be stoned to death for saying this if we lived under Islamic rule.

Uh, no, you'd be talked against it with preaching and good word

Mr, you obviously don't know Islam as well as you think, you have to go get accurate directing

Anyway, I guess we both agree that creationism should not be teached as science in science class, so that's something.

And creationism (intelligent design is good to say, maybe better for disconnecting it from unbalanced belief) should be a concept discussed in science, cause unlike common belief, they are connected. If not for God creating this universe, there would be no science, there would be no elegant arrangement and structure to this world, instead the Big Bang would be like what the mouth and nose shoot while sneezing, scattered particles

 

[nouan]

Well, you're wrong

I love you

I have no idea where you look, Malaysia is a Muslim country, maybe you should check there

So you got one country. I got Iran, Irak, Afghanistan, Sudan, Jemen, Saudi-Arabia etc etc... Majority.

Do you even know how different men and women are, and what are the full rights of women? Like they don't have to go and work for a living, they can, but they don't have to, that's fully the responsibility of man?
Do you know a woman is treated with so much respect the mother is very very important, respecting her is so much a must if you disobey her or make her sad or do anything bad to her, Allah will make things better for you once you genuinely earn her acceptance back by respecting her and treating her well, although the mother's mercy and compassion doesn't let her feel easy going angry about her progeny?
Do you have any clue how important a wife is? That she must be well selected cause taking good care of the woman is a source of happiness?
Did you read about mercy and compassion?
Do you have any clue how wrapped-up men are? We're pretty wrapped up too

Do you know you are talking nonsense? Dude, I'm attached to Qura'an,my mother and my sister (the women in the family) are more attached to Qura'an than I am, and we never read the nonsense you are saying
You are wrong, get your facts right. Do you use something as bad as Google translation or something? Your citation is horridly inaccurate

"They ask you about menstruation. Say: 'It is an indisposition. Keep aloof from women during their menstrual periods and do not approach them until they are clean again; when they are clean, have intercourse with them whence God enjoined you....'" Quran 2:222

"Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please." Quran 2:223

"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them." Quran 4:34

"Call in two male witnesses from among you, but if two men cannot be found, then one man and two women whom you judge fit to act as witnesses..." Quran 2:282

"[Forbidden to you are] married women, except those whom you own as slaves." Quran 4:24

No, it's necessary and accurate
Do you have any idea how people over the world lived before Islam coming to Arab land? Any clue? they were savages, merciless, fighting over anything or whatever reason
And then Muslims passed religion to other lands, they gave them prosperity, if not for Islam not only would you not have anything resembling the internet you use to bash Allah and religion, you'd likely be a savage hooligan

What does it look like now?

Uh, no, you'd be talked against it with preaching and good word

Kinda like that little Afghan girl Malala, who was shot in the head for wanting to get educated?

Mr, you obviously don't know Islam as well as you think, you have to go get accurate directing
And creationism (intelligent design is good to say, maybe better for disconnecting it from unbalanced belief) should be a concept discussed in science, cause unlike common belief, they are connected. If not for God creating this universe, there would be no science, there would be no elegant arrangement and structure to this world, instead the Big Bang would be like what the mouth and nose shoot while sneezing, scattered particles

I know enough about Islam. I know it's dangerous and cult-like. Intelligent design has also been proven false. There are many examples of non-intelligent desing. Like recurrent laryngeal nerve, one of the best examples. Look it up.

 

[The Question]

So you got one country. I got Iran, Irak, Afghanistan, Sudan, Jemen, Saudi-Arabia etc etc...

And those places were all predominantly Muslim long before they became the oppressive totalitarian states with religious police and overtly misogynist laws. It's almost like that's a relatively new development as a result of militant religious fanatics rising to power when they received foreign funds from the NATO countries to fight the soviets, and as recently as the 1970s women in the no less Muslim country of Afghanistan were dressing pretty much exactly like women in the United States with no threat of being stoned to death for it. It's almost as if the sorry state of the Middle East has basically nothing to do with the dominant religion and everything to do with socio-economic pressures that started with the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the interference of European colonialism in the late 1800s.

"They ask you about menstruation. Say: 'It is an indisposition. Keep aloof from women during their menstrual periods and do not approach them until they are clean again; when they are clean, have intercourse with them whence God enjoined you....'" Quran 2:222

"Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please." Quran 2:223

"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them." Quran 4:34

"Call in two male witnesses from among you, but if two men cannot be found, then one man and two women whom you judge fit to act as witnesses..." Quran 2:282

"[Forbidden to you are] married women, except those whom you own as slaves." Quran 4:24

The Bible has equally misogynist stuff in it. And like with the vast majority of Christians, this stuff doesn't effect how the vast majority of Muslims in the world think and live their lives. I mean, if you've got a beef with religion in general, that's another thing. But Islam isn't any worse than any other religion, is what I'm saying.

Kinda like that little Afghan girl Malala, who was shot in the head for wanting to get educated?

Which is a tragedy. It's also a problem with the government of Afghanistan, not the religion of Afghanistan. There are plenty of predominantly Christian nations in Africa that are just as brutal and oppressive, but you rarely hear people saying that it's a problem with Christianity.

I know enough about Islam. I know it's dangerous and cult-like.

It really isn't. It's a huge global religion which, in most parts of the world, is practiced no differently than Christianity or Judaism. There are oppressive theocratic states, sure, but that's not unique to Islam and, like most oppressive states, has more to do with basic racism and misogyny and economic pressures than it does with religion itself.

Here's some actual hard data for you:

http://www.salon.com/2009/10/20/terrorism_6/

Highlights:

"Muslims do not 'hate our freedom,' but rather, they hate our policies": specifically "American direct intervention in the Muslim world" — through the US's "one sided support in favor of Israel"; support for Islamic tyrannies in places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia; and, most of all, "the American occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan"

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iZlsZRgzHmgwj6sKpA7PR5F5Ecsw

Highlights:

"A huge survey of the world's Muslims released Tuesday challenges Western notions that equate Islam with radicalism and violence. . . . It shows that the overwhelming majority of Muslims condemned the attacks against the United States on September 11, 2001 and other subsequent terrorist attacks, the authors of the study said in Washington. . . .

"About 93 percent of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims are moderates and only seven percent are politically radical, according to the poll, based on more than 50,000 interviews. . . .

"Meanwhile, radical Muslims gave political, not religious, reasons for condoning the attacks, the poll showed. . . .

"But the poll, which gives ordinary Muslims a voice in the global debate that they have been drawn into by 9/11, showed that most Muslims -- including radicals -- admire the West for its democracy, freedoms and technological prowess.

"What they do not want is to have Western ways forced on them, it said."

 

[Warhammer]

I thought this was about the Ohio Supreme Court decision. How the hell did it become about the merits of Islam? Y'all can't stick on the same subject for s***. Come the f*** on, nouan.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I love you

Thank you

So you got one country. I got Iran, Irak, Afghanistan, Sudan, Yemen, Saudi-Arabia etc etc... Majority.

Do you know the details of what happens there? And why what is done?

"They ask you about menstruation. Say: 'It is an indisposition. Keep aloof from women during their menstrual periods and do not approach them until they are clean again; when they are clean, have intercourse with them whence God enjoined you....'" Quran 2:222

This you use, is to say "no intercourse during the woman's period"
It doesn't state mistreating them or whatever you talk about

"Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please." Quran 2:223

My, I have to say explaining the verse in Arabic will go smoother, cause of the way metaphors and linguistic imagery are used
You understand that you must take delicate care of the woman, they grow children in their wombs, the fruits of the process to impregnate them

If you feel this is offensive or demeaning of women, let's make a deal; you never use the word 'fertilized' for the embryo

"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them." Quran 4:34

My God, this verse is badly translated. I don't know how to translate the original text, but this is badly translated.
The man is the caretaker, men are caretakers, because of certain qualities for each
And the first thing is not to give harsh talk, it's supposed to be elegant calm talk, sort of a preach
If this does not work, move to the next step
If not, then the last solution is not "Beat", it's hit, and it's not meant to be hard beating
You have to understand as well, the second part of this verse is if the man is right, and the woman does the hard errors, it's not a permanently fixed gender situation

"Call in two male witnesses from among you, but if two men cannot be found, then one man and two women whom you judge fit to act as witnesses..." Quran 2:282

God knows how we behave better than you do, he did create us, and gave us rules to live by

"[Forbidden to you are] married women, except those whom you own as slaves." Quran 4:24

To be honest, you need a session with people more understanding of the Quran than I, and clearly more understanding than you are, and whom are very well informed qualified to explain

What does it look like now?

Are you a savage hooligan now? Can we blame you because of the faults of some?

Kinda like that little Afghan girl Malala, who was shot in the head for wanting to get educated?

Again, don't confuse tribal habits with Islamic teachings, one does not support the other, Islam is against that action
Do you remember the Muslim woman scientist in that video I directed you toward? Who lived in a Muslim community in the Golden Ages? There are more

I know enough about Islam. I know it's dangerous and cult-like. Intelligent design has also been proven false. There are many examples of non-intelligent desing. Like recurrent laryngeal nerve, one of the best examples. Look it up.

You don't know enough, you're confused
Thanks for the smile