Philosophical/Historical thoughts on the US

[BlackLantern]

well the freedom part took a bit, more so military and reputation wise....we went from a rebellious colony to being the first country to develop the atomic bomb

 

[Addendum]

Simply incorrect.

Not a big deal to me

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

In terms of military superiority and reputation, other countries have enjoyed this station America has, such as England, who was considered top dog of the world for quite some time. In terms of reputation, I'm not exactly sure what you mean. In terms of the world liking the country? Fearing the country? Respecting the country? England would have fit the bill for all of these in the past 200 years as well.

In terms of hard fought earned Revolution, France might be considered the most uplifting in terms of sheer effort. America was indeed first, but America has several advantages and allies, France literally fought solo from farmers up to the crown.

America does have a very good ability to recruit and utilize outside talent, such as the people who ultimately designed the atomic bomb, or much of your space program. Other countries would have been hesitant to enlist forces outside of their borders in such influential and high ranking areas of advancement of the American people. It was really quite astounding.

 

[BlackLantern]

Im certainly aware of Great Britains dominance...they damn near ran the world for almost a century millienium, but they did little to advance their people or government...just came up with new ways to wage war, which is advancement of a different form

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

While true, they enjoyed the prosperity and advancement of technology (which was the case) America has enjoyed in later years. Political and personal freedom would not be something any other country would enjoy, except for maybe France.

 

[StorminNorman]

Many re-foundings of countries have very similar ideals of freedom that America shares, such as England and France. The founders rarely make the difference as much as the ones which come after. America really has no edge currently other than it's a fairly strong country in terms of military. Since America has no real natural enemies to worry about aside from rare terrorist attacks which all countries are subject to, America lives in a fairly peaceful situation where freedoms are pretty much the only topic they worry about. This is truly the only advantages America has over other countries who might be bordered or in close proximity to more dangerous countries. Other countries such as England, France, Germany, Italy, and other countries near more extremist borders end up having to monitor things more for public safety reasons. It's not that America is simply a better example, or have better founders, it's simply because it's surrounded by oceans, Canada, and Mexico. Also, they harbor the world's most technologically powerful military.

Europe has always maintained a bit of the "serf" mentality - the difference is that they went from lords to monarchy to the "state". That's why socialism has always been so accepted over there. They have never had an economy anywhere as free as Americas.

America is the only country that has put the focus, not on the state - or the greater good, but the individual. That's why America was successful.

Also, it's odd that you would try to claim that America's success was a consequence of them having the most powerful military, and not a result of.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

I take you've never lived any extensive time outside of America?

 

[SuperFerret]

The greatest accomplishment in man's history is the creation of the United States of America. The future of freedom relies upon the survival of the United States, or the creation of a copy cat as no other significant country places emphasis on personal liberty. Since I believe humanity needs liberty to prosper, and I believe America is the most important country to the preservation of liberty - the idea that I would find the future of humanity relies upon America is far from ludicrous.

The idea of that is ludicrous because you're letting some delusional patriotism blind you to reality. Humanity has liberty, and even if you don't see the point I'm making below (which you probably won't), the USA is not the only country that provides it, nor is it this shining bastion of liberty that you seem to think it is.

LOL - every single living thing on this planet has freedom? Tell that to the journalist in Russia who will die if they attack Putin. Tell that to the businessman in Venezuela that wishes to start a company knowing it won't be taken over by the government. Hell, tell that to marijuana user who knows that his past time could throw end up with him in jail.

Yes, the reporter, the businessman, and the marijuana user will face consequences for what they're doing (whether or not those consequences are fair or not), but the very FACT that they do those things proves that they have the freedom to do it. The consquences of their actions come later, but they are never, ever prevented from performing those actions by anyone but themselves.

Now will man continue to EXIST after America (should such a future exist)? Of course. Thrive? I dunno. I don't think so.

That's just stupid. Though I'm sure you're not alone in that sentiment. I guarantee that there was someone, somewhere, somewhen that thought that humanity would never reach the amount of prosperity that they had if there was such a horrible future as one without the Roman Empire.

 

[StorminNorman]

The idea of that is ludicrous because you're letting some delusional patriotism blind you to reality. Humanity has liberty, and even if you don't see the point I'm making below (which you probably won't), the USA is not the only country that provides it, nor is it this shining bastion of liberty that you seem to think it is.

It's not delusional patriotism - not hardly. You can't deny the importance the create of America has had on mankind. No single event furthered the cause of liberty or individual rights.

The USA is NOT the only country that provides it. These days it's not even the best country at providing it. Which is a shame.

America MUST seek to be the haven of liberty in the world. A large, inviting country that rewards success, and allows you to live for yourself - not your neighbor. Such a haven does not exist today.

Yes, the reporter, the businessman, and the marijuana user will face consequences for what they're doing (whether or not those consequences are fair or not), but the very FACT that they do those things proves that they have the freedom to do it. The consquences of their actions come later, but they are never, ever prevented from performing those actions by anyone but themselves.

That's not liberty. In order for there to be liberty, you must be able to act without coercion.

That's just stupid. Though I'm sure you're not alone in that sentiment. I guarantee that there was someone, somewhere, somewhen that thought that humanity would never reach the amount of prosperity that they had if there was such a horrible future as one without the Roman Empire.

LOL. The fall of the Roman Empire brought Europe into the Dark Ages. Living conditions were horrible and civilization regressed for centuries. Now imagine the Dark Ages with Nuclear Weapons.

 

[bell110]

Europe has always maintained a bit of the "serf" mentality - the difference is that they went from lords to monarchy to the "state". That's why socialism has always been so accepted over there. They have never had an economy anywhere as free as Americas.

America is the only country that has put the focus, not on the state - or the greater good, but the individual. That's why America was successful.

Maybe that's why we are in bad shape right now.

Also, it's odd that you would try to claim that America's success was a consequence of them having the most powerful military, and not a result of.

America has the most powerful military because of our success. Our success also has a lot to do with luck as well.

It's not delusional patriotism - not hardly. You can't deny the importance the create of America has had on mankind. No single event furthered the cause of liberty or individual rights.

Yes, America has been important, but you can't say it's more important than civilizations like the Greeks or Romans. That's where the delusional patriotism thing comes in.

LOL. The fall of the Roman Empire brought Europe into the Dark Ages. Living conditions were horrible and civilization regressed for centuries. Now imagine the Dark Ages with Nuclear Weapons.

And the Dark Ages brought the Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment. So, maybe the fall of America will be necessary for the betterment of mankind.

 

[Matt]

Maybe that's why we are in bad shape right now.



America has the most powerful military because of our success. Our success also has a lot to do with luck as well.



Yes, America has been important, but you can't say it's more important than civilizations like the Greeks or Romans. That's where the delusional patriotism thing comes in.



And the Dark Ages brought the Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment. So, maybe the fall of America will be necessary for the betterment of mankind.

America falling would create global chaos on every level from economic to security. And as Norman said, in an age of nuclear weapons, I wouldn't count on another Renaissance coming from a second dark age. Instead, I would count on the entire planet going up in one big mushroom cloud.

Besides, this whole, "America is going to fall," thing is such a ridiculous notion. We may be relegated to a position like England in the world, but our country is not going to be burned to the ground as alarmists act. Not in our life times any how. In fact, I think China surpassing us as the super power is unlikely. Even if China's economy is growing, they have far too many obstacles to over come before they become a prominent super power. This whole alarmist, end of days nonsense is just a way for self-important people to feel like they live in a special time.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

America does have a very good ability to recruit and utilize outside talent.

American is outside talent. This country is basically a conglomeration of people whose roots lie elsewhere. There's no need to get into the details, we all know the costs.

 

[Paradoxium]

China is not growing is as much as some people think. At least based on what I have seen. Dig a little deeper, ignore the cheerleaders and you will find they have been "padding" the stat sheets. I wouldn't buy Chinese stocks in general.

However, America is not going to crash and burn so much as having a lower standard of living in general. Paying back the debt for the stimulus and bailouts is the do-over, especially if the recovery is not solid. No recovery means lower tax revenues, and less people buying treasuries to rollover the interest on the debt. So the political move is to raise taxes in the middle of a bust, the dumbest thing you can possibly do, but that's what you get for mortgaging things off.

 

[Addendum]

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[bell110]

America falling would create global chaos on every level from economic to security. And as Norman said, in an age of nuclear weapons, I wouldn't count on another Renaissance coming from a second dark age. Instead, I would count on the entire planet going up in one big mushroom cloud.

To me, that's a bit alarmist. The thought that if we fall, other countries are just going to start lobbing nukes willy-nilly is kind of far fetched. It's not just Americans who don't want a nuclear holocaust.

Besides, this whole, "America is going to fall," thing is such a ridiculous notion. We may be relegated to a position like England in the world, but our country is not going to be burned to the ground as alarmists act. Not in our life times any how. In fact, I think China surpassing us as the super power is unlikely. Even if China's economy is growing, they have far too many obstacles to over come before they become a prominent super power. This whole alarmist, end of days nonsense is just a way for self-important people to feel like they live in a special time.

A lot of people would think that if we were relegated to a position like England, that would be a fall enough. I'm no alarmist, and I don't think we are in the end of days, but the fact is, no super power has lasted forever. To think that we will be the exception, I think, is foolish.

 

[Matt]

To me, that's a bit alarmist. The thought that if we fall, other countries are just going to start lobbing nukes willy-nilly is kind of far fetched. It's not just Americans who don't want a nuclear holocaust.

Not really. If America did "fall," in the sense that people speak of, the world economy would collapse. If such a thing did happen, a global depression, its not hard to see how a nuclear holocaust would take place with people fighting over resources and land. Rational minds would not prevail.

A lot of people would think that if we were relegated to a position like England, that would be a fall enough. I'm no alarmist, and I don't think we are in the end of days, but the fact is, no super power has lasted forever. To think that we will be the exception, I think, is foolish.

We live in a new era though. In these days it is beneifical for countries like China, Britain, etc to ensure we remain a super power. The world economy is dependent on us.

 

[Addendum]

America: The world's crutch

 

[BlackLantern]

is that necessarily a good thing??

 

[Matt]

No, its not. But it is what it is.

 

[Paradoxium]

Not really. If America did "fall," in the sense that people speak of, the world economy would collapse. If such a thing did happen, a global depression, its not hard to see how a nuclear holocaust would take place with people fighting over resources and land. Rational minds would not prevail.



We live in a new era though. In these days it is beneifical for countries like China, Britain, etc to ensure we remain a super power. The world economy is dependent on us.

Britain is a joke, once they run out of oil, they are going to be epic fail. China and Japan could stand to be less dependent. They simple lend America money to buy their goods and service themselves of these goods. The only real incentive to prop America is the greenback. If it weren't for that, they couldn't give less of a ****.

Japan might need America more because China don't like them much; won't buy their goods for historical reasons (WW2 - stuff like killing babies and dumping them into a hole - yea there are pictures of this). Just look at the sales of Honda and Toyota to Ford in China. It's gonna shock you.

So yea, countries could stand to decouple from America to make actual progress in standards of living. This is why China has lowered their Treasury holdings so much, it is less than Japan now. And the new Japanese government is pretty anti-American. They are easing away as we speak.

 

[superpower]

I hear all this talk about living for yourself and not others.

Do you guys see how we are enslaved to each other? On a daily basis no less.

Can you make your clothes, build your home, grow crops, transportation.....ect..... We are and always will be slaves to eachother.

No way around it. Only the blind see different.

And those who understand...... Well they just keep us argueing like kids so we can't catch a breath to say........ NO MORE.

Freedom. What is it? Anyone?

 

[BlackLantern]

.Can you make your clothes, build your home, grow crops, transportation.....ect..... We are and always will be slaves to eachother.

they wouldn't be designer but I can make do, and with enough space and seeds crops can be grown

never underestimate the ability of people to make do

 

[superpower]

they wouldn't be designer but I can make do, and with enough space and seeds crops can be grown

never underestimate the ability of people to make do

I truly feel you.

Just don't over estimate your ability.

And I mean your TRUE ability. Not what you say you can do.

 

[superpower]

they wouldn't be designer but I can make do, and with enough space and seeds crops can be grown

never underestimate the ability of people to make do

If you want to go past basics..... How will you test your blood for disease when I say no?

 

[BlackLantern]

let me ask this...if the collapse happens, can you be up and out of your home in 10-15 minutes or defend yourself if needs be??...I can, on both counts