Plot holes/poor storytelling discussion

[3 Dev Adam]

I still haven't seen the film so you can forgive me for asking if Silverfox did know her sister was in prison all along.

Yes, she did.

 

[chaseter]

And, with her powers of persuasion didn't once make Stryker release her over a 6 year period.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Look, it's one thing to say you love the film, but if you're going to lie to suit the basis of your argument, there's a problem. I'm going to address what you've said here and in the "why Wolverine will be a success" thread.

I've never lied about anything in this film.

Ignoring the major snafus like the differences in the surgery scene between Wolverine and X1/X2, the fact that Victor has gone from being all "brothers stick together" to not even recognizing Logan in X1, the fact that the mutants who were released from their imprisonment (even Emma, who's apparently been there for a long time) don't say a single word about the person who saved, and much more, there's still a lack of both plot and character development in this film.

I've already addressed the part about Emma Frost and the other kids not mentioning Logan.

As far as the rest goes:

-Sabretooth DOES recognize Logan in X-Men, it's very heavily implied by the way he takes Logan's dogtags and carries them around with him. It was one major point that Hood addresses in one of his interviews - in X-Men it is hinted that Sabretooth and Wolverine have a history, but it's never explored. In *THIS* movie, we will explore it.

You have a problem with the lack of history, then complain about Singer not developing the relationship beyond anything bigger than a wink and a nod. Gavin Hood actually addressed the relationship - something that people have been WANTING since X-Men. Now that we get it, it's complained about because it doesn't match up to their interactions in X-Men.

Then again, since when does EVERYTHING have to be explicitly stated? Are you not able to comprehend sublty and implications? Why does Sabretooth have to explicitly state to Logan in X-Men "remember me, brother?" in order for the relationship to match up? It is implied that the 2 have a relationship, a history, but it is never expanded upon. Now, we have that expansion.

As far as the differences between the flashbacks to the actual surgery, yea, I'm sorry that everything didn't match up perfectly. I'm sorry that Logan didn't look at his claws and start crying. But you know what? Beast wasn't blue and furry in X2. Kitty Pryde was re-cast 3 times. The Cerebro special FX aren't consistent between X-Men and X2. And hell, Logan's FLASHBACKS aren't even 100% consistent between the 2 movies either. What we got wasn't a plot hole. It was an abscense of particular details that you're complaining about. The actual surgery, and the flashbacks, ARE consistent in the overall story that they are telling. Some very minor details are changed, big deal. That doesn't equate to a plothole.

None of that matters when the character doesn't remember the events of the entire film for the rest of the trilogy. That's retroactive continuity, not for the character, but for the audiences who wanted to know more about who he was before he became the modern version (and even then, he wasn't very different).

And we -did- see what he was like before all of that happened. He was a soldier, he was a mercenary. He lost his memories, that doesn't mean who he is at the very core of his being was changed. He doesn't remember, he's not schizo.

It doesn't matter if he makes the decision during this film NOT to become an animal, because that choice is taken away from him by Stryker with the giant deus-ex-machina known as the adamantium bullets.

The adamantium bullets were pretty lame, but it does matter that he chooses not to become the animal. That's the very essence of his character, that he fights against his primal nature. Again, lack of memories =/= alterning of persona.

And really, what did he do on Team X that would make him an accomplice to "very bad things"? He went on one mission, snarked at his teammates on the flight over, stood around while they took over the drug lord's building (and they knew he was bad to begin with), then expressed doubts and left when they killed one civilian and got what they wanted. That doesn't constitute very bad things in my mind.

That is the very definition of "accomplice" - not actually taking part in the actions, but knowingly allowing them to happen. He was part of a team that brutally murdered innocent villiagers for a freaking rock. That's "very bad things". Unless of course, cold blooded murder over the aquisition of resources isn't "very bad" in your book of morals.

As I've said before, fanboys don't dictate box office returns. Then again, directors who don't understand the source material are more apt to make films that suffer with general audiences.

The movie actually matches up pretty well with all of the Wolverine origins stories that I have heard over the year. At least in it's essence. Sure, details are different, but the essence isn't.

My brother, who is a HUGE Wolverine fan, and owns probably damn near every Wolverine comic ever was impressed with the accuracy. He wasn't a fan of the execution, but accuracy wasn't his problem.

Hood "got" it.

I critique this and other films because I WANT BETTER MOVIES. I don't want to have to sit in a theater as Logan raises his head to the sky and scream THREE TIMES during the film. Instead of thinking, "Wow, that's powerful emotion", I'm thinking, "Did Gavin Hood pull out a copy of Screenwriting For Dummies and rip out pages for reference"?

It's ****ing Wolverine, a comic book movie. It's not MEANT to be "powerful emotion".

Any plot hole can be rationalized by a fan. That's the entire reason why the word "fanwanking" was invented. It's the very fact that the issue is never resolved in the film's continuity that made it a plot hole or continuity error in the first place. Hell, every film has plot holes. The Dark Knight has plot holes, but they're not immediately apparent within the first, or even second, viewing.

And any plot hole can be invented out of thin air by a hater.

It's not even the fact that Gavin Hood and David Benioff changed the origin story by adapting source material that was poorly written in the first place. There was a chance to make a solid movie that just focused on Logan, Victor, Kayla and Stryker. Instead, what we end up with is an endless parade of mutants who walk across the screen, get three or four cool moments, and die. That's what this film is at its core. You've chosen to ignore the fact that one-note characters like Blob (he has an inferiority complex), Bolt (he lights things up) or Agent Zero (he has great accuracy) do practically nothing but participate in action scenes, or that there is very little extra motivation given to Stryker that would explain why he hates mutants (since we already knew the reason in X2).

Movies have side and supporting characters. Period. Gambit, Blob, Agent Zero, they aren't MEANT to be fleshed out with loads of depth. They are there to expand the world, and each character serves a purpose. And we don't need extra motivation for Stryker, we KNOW his motivation already. As you said, it was already explained in X2. Why would he have different motives?

There shouldn't be a ton of exposition being thrown at us by Silverfox ten minutes before the climax of the film, saying, "Look, everything you thought happened during the last two hours is a lie!" or characters getting big emotional scenes RIGHT BEFORE they die. They should be developed right from the start, not at the very end.

The lie is part of Wolverine's story though. The fact that he was set up. That he was used. Manipulated. That's the whole freaking point of the story.

Silverfox WAS developed from the start. The entire first third of the movie is devoted to fleshing out her's and Logan's relationship together. There is a big scene where she tells Logan the Native American tale about the moon and the Wolverine. That scene does more to develop Silverfox (displaying her Native American heritage, her love of Native American stories and myths) that it does to develop Logan.

The characters serve the plot. The plot doesn't serve the characters. Honestly, I get sick of having to explain this to people who blindly accept whatever's thrown at them on-screen.

It's easy to make your argument undebatable when you just call anyone who disagrees with you as "blind". It's a cop out. To me, it shows that you can't debate your point well enough, so you have to resort to attacking those who disagree with you instead of their argument.

Each character serves the plot in their own way. If you don't see it, then I'm sorry.

Logan - Is the protagonist to the story

Victor Creed - The antagonist to Logan. Creed is the very image of everything that Logan could become, and is fighting against.

William Stryker - The antagonist to Logan. The manipulator that tries to use Logan for his own personal gain, to turn him into a weapon.

Kayla Silverfox - The driving force behind Logan's motivations. Logan loves Silverfox, and it is her "death" that sets Logan in motion. It is her "death" that drives Logan to become "the animal", and allows Logan to become manipulated by Stryker.

Agent Zero - The symbol of everything bad and evil behind Team X, and the actions that Logan took part in. Agent Zero is the cold blooded killer that goes along with anything that Stryker wants.

Bradley - Furthers the plot through his death. His death helps Stryker to manipulate Logan to join his cause, as well as show the consequences of Stryker's overall plan.

John Wraith - Is there to reveal Stryker's scheme to Logan, to reveal the story to the protagonist.

Gambit - Is there to aid Logan in his quest towards the ultimate climax. Without Gambit, Logan doesn't face off against Creed and Stryker.

Wade Wilson - The result of Stryker's scheming and manipulation. Actually SHOWS the audience what Stryker's deeds are capable of.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I still haven't seen the film so you can forgive me for asking if Silverfox did know her sister was in prison all along.

It doesn't say. All Silverfox says is that Stryker has her sister. That's it. There's nothing saying that Stryker had Emma for 6 years, or a week.

With the way the relationship between Logan and Silverfox plays out, combined with Stryker's knowledge of Logan's situation, it makes sense to me that Stryker didn't have Emma (or Kayla wasn't aware of it) until he shows back up in the picture just before Kayla's "death".

And as for the sisters detail, might it have helped cleared up the confusion if they said they were half sisters? I don't know if you call your brother half brother or not, but when it comes to the movies, there seems an assumption that skewers more towards the fact that they're just 'sisters', rather than half sisters. After all, I hear Emma was fairly prominent as far as Silverfox's motivation went.

No, I don't call my brother my "half brother", I call him my brother.

I know a LOT of people with half siblings, and they don't call them "half brother" "half sister", they call them "brother" or "sister". The term is used so infrequently that I have even had people confused when I mention "half brother". They are like "WTF is that?"

You posted twice and I somehow ended up in the middle!

Yea, because when I posted the first time, it never appeared in the thread. So I posted it again, and this time it showed up, along with the original post that had apparently already been there.

 

[uchiha_itachi]

In the video game, Stryker also tries to make him lose his memory in some Total Recall chair contraption.

i didnt get that bit, he didnt forget anything lol

 

[uchiha_itachi]

No she's not

Have you ever heard of half siblings? It is very possible, and entirely likely even, that Silverfox and Emma Frost are sisters, yet don't share any Native American heritage.

My brother is part Mexican and part Italian. I am part English and part Native American. Completely different from each other.

The only blood we share is our Irish and German blood.

that dont make sense me..surley you would both have one of the halves? like your both part italian then the other part is differnt..if you have the same mother or wotever

i know tht may sound dumb but i dont get it lol

 

[uchiha_itachi]

It's been many many years since I studied biology....but let me put this out there....

Bone marrow has something to do with blood creation....it makes it out of them in some way or another....if the bones are completely covered by adamantium, it can't get out, and he dies....so, if his body's mutated regeneration process can in some way minutely control the adamantium to allow this process to occure....it could in some way close the holes in his adamantium skull.

Whatcha think?

makes sense to me. i think people misunderstand what bonding adamantium to the skeleton means. it hasn't been just plated over, its on a molecular level . To me that would mean if it somehow was broken it would heal back up like bone normally would.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

that dont make sense me..surley you would both have one of the halves? like your both part italian then the other part is differnt..if you have the same mother or wotever

i know tht may sound dumb but i dont get it lol

We have the same father. But we have different mothers.

Our father is German and Irish. My mother is English, Dutch, and Native American. My brother's mother is Mexican and Italian.

The same could be very true for Emma and Kayla. Considering the last names (Silverfox, and Frost), I would imagine they have the same mother, but different fathers. Kayla's father would have been Native American, Emma's father wouldn't have been.

 

[S. Grundy]

I'm kinda annoyed that they didn't even attempt to give Stryker a Southern accent.

 

[The Guard]

I do have to agree that while the characters were not fleshed out or handled particularly well...all of them did serve the plot in some fashion.

 

[uchiha_itachi]

We have the same father. But we have different mothers.

Our father is German and Irish. My mother is English, Dutch, and Native American. My brother's mother is Mexican and Italian.

The same could be very true for Emma and Kayla. Considering the last names (Silverfox, and Frost), I would imagine they have the same mother, but different fathers. Kayla's father would have been Native American, Emma's father wouldn't have been.

got yaht:

 

[roach]

makes sense to me. i think people misunderstand what bonding adamantium to the skeleton means. it hasn't been just plated over, its on a molecular level . To me that would mean if it somehow was broken it would heal back up like bone normally would.

that would make no sense. Why would his mutant healing factor now control the adamantium just because it bonded on a molecular level? If that was the case then why didnt his body continue to coat all his bones with adamantium??? Why doesnt he have adamantium teeth???

 

[roach]

My theory on the whole Silverfox / Logan relationship:

Silverfox and Logan were a genuine couple. But when Stryker came into the picture, he obviously knew about Logan and his situation (he states "Playing little house on the prairie with a school teacher? That's just not you"), and with that information, used it to locate Silverfox. He blackmailed her, with the knowledge that he had her sister, into going through with the plot to fake her death, to lure Logan back into his services. She complied to try to save her sister.

The reason why she didn't just use her powers on Logan is because a faked death is much greater motivation for Logan to join Stryker's cause. Silverfox doesn't create images, she is not Jason Stryker. She can only influence people. That influence would eventually wear off. But the "knowledge" that the love of his life was murdered by Victor would not.

Stryker's line in the climax towards Logan "Powerful tool for a seduction", in regards to Silverfox's powers, is Stryker being the coniving, manipulating villain that he is. But Silverfox, crying the entire time, and pleading with Logan that "it was real", never used her powers to seduce Logan.

I don't believe that it was a 6 year farce. I believe that Stryker spent 6 years setting up Weapon XI, and tracking down Logan, and when he found him, "convinced" Silverfox to aide him. It was when Stryker came back into the picture that Silverfox became a piece of the plot.

That's my theory. That's how I see it. That's how I see it from the movie that I actually saw before my very eyes, and nobody will be able to convince me otherwise.

The fact that you had to come up with this shows poor story telling on the director/writers part

 

[uchiha_itachi]

that would make no sense. Why would his mutant healing factor now control the adamantium just because it bonded on a molecular level? If that was the case then why didnt his body continue to coat all his bones with adamantium??? Why doesnt he have adamantium teeth???

teeth are not bones for a start...

im saying if its on a molecular level its not just layered on his bones its in the bones themselves. taking on the properties of adamantium, is another way of thinking about it. so they would heal as its still bone with adamantium in the mix.

 

[Anita18]

I do have to agree that while the characters were not fleshed out or handled particularly well...all of them did serve the plot in some fashion.

That's ALL they did. It was like they looked at the story, went, "Hmm, we need a character to do something for Logan" and then shoehorned someone in there.

teeth are not bones for a start...

im saying if its on a molecular level its not just layered on his bones its in the bones themselves. taking on the properties of adamantium, is another way of thinking about it. so they would heal as its still bone with adamantium in the mix.

Teeth are basically bone. They just don't grow back, so if they weren't laced with adamantium, they wouldn't somehow end up there on their own accord.

I still don't get why this stuff bothers people. I'm the biologist, and I just go, "Yeah, whatever, that's cool."

 

[roach]

teeth are not bones for a start...

im saying if its on a molecular level its not just layered on his bones its in the bones themselves. taking on the properties of adamantium, is another way of thinking about it. so they would heal as its still bone with adamantium in the mix.

I dont think that was the case. Look at the claws. Do the claws on wolverine look like a bone/adamantium mix or bone encased by adamantium. To me the look encased.

 

[uchiha_itachi]

I dont think that was the case. Look at the claws. Do the claws on wolverine look like a bone/adamantium mix or bone encased by adamantium. To me the look encased.

i phrased it like that so the other guy could picture what i ment better.

 

[uchiha_itachi]

That's ALL they did. It was like they looked at the story, went, "Hmm, we need a character to do something for Logan" and then shoehorned someone in there.


Teeth are basically bone. They just don't grow back, so if they weren't laced with adamantium, they wouldn't somehow end up there on their own accord.

I still don't get why this stuff bothers people. I'm the biologist, and I just go, "Yeah, whatever, that's cool."

yeah they basically are but there not at the same time... right?

anyway it dosent matter people cant shoot optic blasts from their eyes and no ones complaining about that... its a comic movie anything is possible.

 

[roach]

i wasnt complaining about the process.Its part of the comics. As much as I hate the whole bone claws in the comics too.
My real problem was they gave the adamantium to Logan just to see if it would work and then give it to Deadpool. It makes no sense. They made someone they knew wasnt going to join them harder to kill and more powerful just to test it....why not just try it on Deadpool or at least attempt to brainwash Logan to join their cause???

 

[chaseter]

What stopped the adamantium from coating his joints? They just stuck needles in him and it only covered the bones? Wouldn't it cover everything? I like the idea of men actually doing the procedure instead of a machine set on autopilot.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

The fact that you had to come up with this shows poor story telling on the director/writers part

While I admit that these filmmakers didn't put on a display of master story crafting with this movie (but hey - it's a comic book movie. Comic books aren't examples of master story crafting either, no matter how much we may endear them), it's really -not- poor storytelling.

All I have to do is take a look at what is presented right in front of my face, and come to a conclusion on what happened based upon that. Some people can't seem to figure that out, they still have to make up things about this movie so they can bad mouth it.

I'm expressing what is right there in front of my face, what I see happening, and my interpretation of it.

I mean, interpretations are a factor with damn near any story. People have different interpretations of what's going on.

 

[Spider-Fan]

And, with her powers of persuasion didn't once make Stryker release her over a 6 year period.

LOL, good point t:

 

[Anita18]

What stopped the adamantium from coating his joints? They just stuck needles in him and it only covered the bones? Wouldn't it cover everything? I like the idea of men actually doing the procedure instead of a machine set on autopilot.

There's cartilage in between the bones when they come together, especially in the joints. So if the adamantium was specifically targeted to bone cells (however they do it), it wouldn't affect joints.

Yeah I pictured a surgical team doing it as well. I imagined it as a more painstaking, detailed procedure.

 

[X-Maniac]

that would make no sense. Why would his mutant healing factor now control the adamantium just because it bonded on a molecular level? If that was the case then why didnt his body continue to coat all his bones with adamantium??? Why doesnt he have adamantium teeth???

The adamantium wasn't bonded to his teeth. Why are you being so ridiculous?

If it was able to repair where it bonded to bone, then why would it suddenly spread all over his teeth.

 

[X-Maniac]

The fact that you had to come up with this shows poor story telling on the director/writers part

Not at all. Nell's theory/explanation is no different to the other theories and explanations that people come with up for unshown/unexplained details in other movies, including the previous three X-Men movies, The Dark Knight, etc etc.