Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

[Human Torch]

Balderdash. You know good and well Wolverine was given Cyclops' leadership role.
.

Eh,not really.Cyclops was kicked to the curb in 2,but Wolverine didn't become "co-leader" until 3.Storm took the "team leader" role for most of that 2nd film.Wolverine was off with the kids and Cyclops was out of it.

 

[DrCosmic]

Wow, maybe you don't know. Okay: Who did Storm lead, exactly? Jean? What did she do as a leader? Anything at all? Who did we see leading young mutants around the country instead? Even back in X1, Wolverine was the one coming up with the plans and being Xavier's confidant. This culminated in him being the one who was giving speeches and training the students he led in X2 in X-Men in Last Stand.

Storm didn't get anything but 10 minutes screen time. To pretend it was more than that is obtuse. To pretend that fans were be moaning Storm being given Cyclops role is just outright untrue.

 

[Loki882]

Actually, Storm was Xavier's confidant in X3. He also asked her to succeed him as leader of the X-Men. Wolverine didn't lead anyone in X2 and his one significant interaction with Xavier in X3 was an argument over Xavier messing with Jean's mind. Wolverine was NEVER Xavier's "confidant" and he didn't come up with most of the plans. If you want to complain about Wolverine getting the focus in these movies, ok fine. But he was never the leader, except maybe during the final fight in X3.

 

[metaphysician]

Storm certainly *should* have been leader, ahead of Wolverine. Though given Halle Berry's performance, that would have probably been tragic for different reasons.

 

[DrCosmic]

In X1, it was Wolverine and Xavier who had a relationship. Others did end up interacting with Xavier more in later movies, that's true. Also in X1, the only plan they came up with, how to get Rogue out, that was entirely Wolverine's idea. Scott's role had already been taken at that point, Storm had nothing to do with it.

Edit: The rest of this is far too wordy, I address the problem much better two posts down.

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

Eh,not really.Cyclops was kicked to the curb in 2,but Wolverine didn't become "co-leader" until 3.Storm took the "team leader" role for most of that 2nd film.Wolverine was off with the kids and Cyclops was out of it.

exactly

 

[DrCosmic]

Meh. Team leader in name only. Unless you can point out any leading she did.

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

Decided to take a look at a few of the popular Marvel superhero franchises to see how diverse they are.

The way I did it was to count American Caucasian Male is the default.

Each character that has a trait different to these will earn a point.

Examples:

Tony Stark would net 0 points as he's a Caucasian American male.
Gwen Stacy would net 1 point for being female
Nightcrawler would net 2 points for being Blue and German
Yukio would net 3 points for being Female, Asian & Japanese.

(Aliens & supernatural beings will not count towards nationality and characters who transform between standard human appearance to a different coloured form like Beast and Hulk will count for a half point as they are shown to be Caucasian for Half the time)

X-Men = 11 points

Xavier: 1 point
Cyclops
Storm: 2 points
Wolverine: 1 point
Jean Grey: 1 point
Magneto: 1 point
Mystique: 2 points
Toad: 1 point
Sabertooth: 1 point
Rogue: 1 point
Iceman
Senator Kelly

X2 = 13 points

Xavier: 1 point
Cyclops
Storm: 2 points
Jean Grey: 1 point
Wolverine: 1 point
Iceman
Rogue: 1 point
Pyro
Nightcrawler: 2 points
Magneto: 1 point
Mystique: 2 points
Deathstrike: 2 points
William Stryker
Jason Stryker

X3: The Last Stand = 16

Xavier: 1 point
Cyclops
Wolverine 1 point
Storm: 2 points
Phoenix: 1 point
Iceman
Kitty: 1 point
Colossus
Magneto: 1 point
Mystique: 2 points
Juggernaut: 1 point
Pyro
Beast: 1 point
Angel
Quill: 1 point
Calisto: 2 points
Arclight: 2 points

X-Men Origins: Wolverine = 6 points

Wolverine: 1 point
Sabertooth: 1 point
Blob
Merry: 1 point
William Stryker
Agent Zero: 1 point
Wade Wilson
Kayla Silverfox: 1 point
Scott Summers
Kayla's sister: 1 point

X-Men First Class = 11 points

Charles Xavier: 1 point
Eric Lensherr: 1 point
Sebastian Shaw: 1 point
Hank McCoy: 0.5 points
Raven: 1.5 points
Moira McTaggert: 1 point
Darwin: 1 point
Azazel: 1 point
Alex Summers
Angel salvadore: 2 points
Emma Frost: 1 point

The Wolverine = 15 points

Wolverine: 1 point
Yukio: 3 points
Mariko: 3 points
Yashida: 2 points
Harada: 2 points
Viper: 2 points
Shingen: 2 points


X-Men Quadrilogy = 51 points

Wolverine movies = 21 points

__________

Spider-Man = 4 points

Peter Parker
Mary Jane Watson: 1 point
Aunt May: 1 point
Uncle Ben
Harry Osborn
Norman Osborn
J Jonah Jameson
Betty Brant: 1 point
Robbie Robertson: 1 point

Spider-Man 2 = 4 points

Peter Parker
Mary Jane Watson: 1 point
Aunt May: 1 point
Otto Octavius
Harry Osborn
Curt Connors
John Jameson
J Jonah Jameson
Betty Brant: 1 point
Robbie Robertson: 1 point

Spider-Man 3 = 5 points

Peter Parker
Mary Jane Watson: 1 point
Gwen Stacy: 1 point
Aunt May: 1 point
Harry Osborn
J Jonah Jameson
Betty Brant: 1 point
Robbie Robertson: 1 point
Edward Brock Jr
Flint Marko

Amazing Spider-Man = 3.5 points

Peter Parker
Gwen Stacy: 1 point
Curt Connors: 0.5 points
Aunt May: 1 point
Uncle Ben
Captain Stacy
Richard Parker
Mary Parker: 1 point

Spider-Man Franchise = 16 points

__________

Iron Man = 8 points

Tony Stark
Pepper Potts: 1 point
James Rhodes: 1 point
Coulson
Obadiah Stane
Yinsen: 2 points
Happy Hogan
Raza: 2 points
Abu: 2 points

Iron Man 2 = 5 points

Tony Stark
Pepper Potts: 1 point
James Rhodes: 1 point
Natasha Romanoff: 1 point
Happy Hogan
Nick Fury: 1 point
Anton Vanko: 1 point
Justin Hammer

Iron Man 3 = 6 points

Tony Stark
Pepper Potts: 1 point
James Rhodes: 1 point
Aldrich Killian
Maya Hanson: 1 point
Happy Hogan
Trevor Slattery: 1 point
Savin
Brandt: 2 points
President
Harley

Iron Man Trilogy: 19 points

__________

Avengers = 3.5 points

Thor
Iron Man
Captain America
Black Widow: 1 point
Bruce Banner/Hulk: 0.5 points
Hawkeye
Nick Fury: 1 point
Coulson
Loki
Maria Hill: 1 point

__________


Might do the others to see which franchises are the most diverse.

 

[DrCosmic]

That's fine work, I wish I could comment on it without detracting from it, but the points system is PCism, not true diversity. Nick Fury and James Rhodes are much more valuable in representing black people helping to save the world than Darwin or Robbie Robertson. They aren't worth the same number of "points" to a kid wondering where they fit into this. The only people who care about points are people who are trying to meet a minimum metric to pat themselves on the back as opposed to make minorities and women actually equally valued.

The fact that we count white people who change color as somehow less white is pretty silly too. Black people with very light skin are not white in ethnicity. White people with blue skin are not blue in ethnicity.

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

Well for coloured character like blue I go by character not actor. Mystique is a blue character. In first Class she was mostly a Caucasian character and only blue for a little amount which is why she score one point for female and half a point for (blue) skin colour.

Character value is getting into particulars and preference. I didn't count Mr Aziz from Spider-Man 2 as he wasn't part of the main story or a featured character, Darwin and Yinsen were and their importance compared to each other isn't a factor, only their presence in the movies

 

[Dasher10]

So why exactly are Black Panther and Captain Marvel not getting movies yet? They're both key avengers, one's black, the other's female. They both deserve their own movies.

 

[Suzanne78]

So why exactly are Black Panther and Captain Marvel not getting movies yet? They're both key avengers, one's black, the other's female. They both deserve their own movies.

Yep. That's kind of my whole reason for starting the thread. t:

I desperately want both, ASAP. I'm hoping that they'll be announced for Phase III.

 

[Human Torch]

Actually, Storm was Xavier's confidant in X3. He also asked her to succeed him as leader of the X-Men. Wolverine didn't lead anyone in X2 and his one significant interaction with Xavier in X3 was an argument over Xavier messing with Jean's mind. Wolverine was NEVER Xavier's "confidant" and he didn't come up with most of the plans. If you want to complain about Wolverine getting the focus in these movies, ok fine. But he was never the leader, except maybe during the final fight in X3.

My point exactly.

A lot of folks want to take out their displeasure with Cyke's treatment out on Wolverine,but he didn't take his "role" until the last 30 minutes of X-Men 3.

 

[Human Torch]

Storm didn't get anything but 10 minutes screen time. To pretend it was more than that is obtuse. To pretend that fans were be moaning Storm being given Cyclops role is just outright untrue.

C'mon.Who's being obtuse here?Storm got much more to do in X2 than Cyke.She was the one to rescue Prof X.Even though Scott was right there,she made the call.At least in X 1,Logan made a suggestion,and Scott (being a smart leader) excepted it."Alright,do it."

He even made the call when the plan wasn't working."I have a shot,I'm taking it".

 

[DrCosmic]

C'mon.Who's being obtuse here?Storm got much more to do in X2 than Cyke.She was the one to rescue Prof X.Even though Scott was right there,she made the call.At least in X 1,Logan made a suggestion,and Scott (being a smart leader) excepted it."Alright,do it."

He even made the call when the plan wasn't working."I have a shot,I'm taking it".

She got more to do than Cyke, but she didn't do what Cyclops would have done if he hadn't been sidelined by Wolverine, that was the point made, and it's unsubstantiated. Cyke couldn't make the call in X2 because he was unconscious after fighting Jean, a function of the love triangle, not Storm getting more screen time. Cyke recognizing that he was an inferior strategist to Wolverine in X1 shows him to be a smart leader, but his role as a strategist was still taken by Wolverine. If Storm had not been in the film, nothing would have changed for Scott, he would not have been any more a leader. That's how we know that Storm did not take leadership from him.

Well for coloured character like blue I go by character not actor. Mystique is a blue character. In first Class she was mostly a Caucasian character and only blue for a little amount which is why she score one point for female and half a point for (blue) skin colour.

Character value is getting into particulars and preference. I didn't count Mr Aziz from Spider-Man 2 as he wasn't part of the main story or a featured character, Darwin and Yinsen were and their importance compared to each other isn't a factor, only their presence in the movies

So you consider albino children with black parents to be white, then? A white person with a skin condition is only half Caucasian?

Isn't a factor for who? If only presence is a factor, why are we having this discussion when minorities and women have always been present as background characters with slim to none agency and character development? Clearly, importance is a factor for someone, or else there wouldn't be discussions about having minority and female-led films.

 

[bubbadoom]

Isn't Nick Fury's missing eye enough of a handy cap to get him at least half a point?

And Halle Berry is half black and half white so should that only be half a point as well?

Why is Magneto on the list - his age?

 

[Human Torch]

She got more to do than Cyke, but she didn't do what Cyclops would have done if he hadn't been sidelined by Wolverine, that was the point made, and it's unsubstantiated. Cyke couldn't make the call in X2 because he was unconscious after fighting Jean, a function of the love triangle, not Storm getting more screen time.

Cyke wasn't unconscious,but he was out of the loop for so much of the movie,he really had no basis to be giving orders."Who is this guy?" He had no clue what was going down,so naturally Storm was better suited to make the call.

I guess what the point I'm making is the story could've easily been written to give Cyke the leadership role people expected him to have,and put Storm in Cyke's place.But,that wasn't going to happen since:

A. Storm is pretty much the only recognizable black female superhero to the GA,which is a point of pride for the X-Men (and deservedly so).So there was no way she was going to take a backseat in the film.(Despite the fact that as a character,she's arguably less interesting than Cyclops)

and

B.Halle Berry was right off an Oscar win and was supposed to be "the next big thing" so her very public plea for a more substantive role after the first film was not going to fall on deaf ears.

Cyke recognizing that he was an inferior strategist to Wolverine in X1 shows him to be a smart leader, but his role as a strategist was still taken by Wolverine. If Storm had not been in the film, nothing would have changed for Scott, he would not have been any more a leader. That's how we know that Storm did not take leadership from him.

Basically,it's an ensemble picture.Everyone had to verbalize something about the plan as to not make it as simple as Cyke saying "Here's what we'll do, gang..."

 

[DrCosmic]

So now I gotta go back and look at this stuff again.

Cyke wasn't unconscious,but he was out of the loop for so much of the movie,he really had no basis to be giving orders."Who is this guy?" He had no clue what was going down,so naturally Storm was better suited to make the call.

I guess what the point I'm making is the story could've easily been written to give Cyke the leadership role people expected him to have,and put Storm in Cyke's place.But,that wasn't going to happen since:

...

...since movie Cyclops was a really unlikable character who was in Wolverine's way. If Storm and Cyclops had switched places, Cyclops would have been cool with Nightcrawler and rescued some children, but he would not have been a leader at all. Switching Storm and Cyke thus would not make Cyke a leader, thus, we know Storm didn't take his leadership role. It's that simple.

Now if you theorize that if Storm hadn't gotten as big a part then Cyke would have... look at X1. Storm had a small part, and Cyclops... also had a small part. What's the basis for the idea that Storm took anything - anything at all - from Cyclops? As opposed to Storm taking from Wolverine or Wolverine taking from Cyclops? I agree it could have been rewritten, but to make it an ensemble would take a lot of rewriting, and it would take a lot away from Wolverine.

Storm, having a big part, and being the only other X-Man with a character arc by force of her character's diversity and her recent Oscar made X2 a better movie. Multiple types of people being important, the essence of diversity. If X-Men had done better and given all four of the X-Men character arcs the way Avengers gave its members character arcs, we would have had a truly great X-Men movie, instead of just a good Wolverine movie co-starring the X-Men.

Basically,it's an ensemble picture.Everyone had to verbalize something about the plan as to not make it as simple as Cyke saying "Here's what we'll do, gang..."

The conversations begins with Wolverine giving orders and ends with Cyclops agreeing to Wolverine's superior comprehensive plan. In a true ensemble, these important things would be divided up. They weren't. This is after he comes up with the plan to use Cyclops to defeat Sabertooth which he is able to communicate to Jean wordlessly. Wolverine is a brilliant leader in X1. Without his mind and words, the X-Men wouldn't have stood a chance, and that can't be said for anyone else except Xavier.

 

[mace1]

I just got back into reading Marvel and DC comics in the past year or so but in the marvel universe how many heroes are minorities or female? I can only think of a few.

Storm

Bishop

Black Panther

Miles Morles (Ultimate Spider Man)

Luke Cage

Ultimate Nick Fury

Like I said I recently just got back into reading comics heavily a year or so ago so I could be missing some in the Marvel Universe.

There is more that.

List of black superheroes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




List of superheroines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[mace1]

• List of Native American superheroes

• List of Asian superheroes

 

[mace1]

Oh, and here are some recent new superheros.
Two are not new however.


[FONT=Verdana, Arial]

New Marvel/Shazam Family members

Darla Dudley
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]

Pedro Peña, Eugene Choi, and Darla Dudley: Billy, Mary, and Freddy's foster siblings in current New 52 continuity. Introduced in the Flashpoint miniseries, the overweight Latino teenager Pedro, intelligent Chinese teenager Eugene, and exuberant African-American preteen Darla share Billy's secret, and at Billy's will can share his power and become adult Shazam-powered superheroes.


Darla Dudley is an African-American girl living in Fawcett City. After history is rewritten by the Flash in Flashpoint, radically different versions of Captain Marvel and his family are introduced. Darla Dudley along with her five friends Billy Batson, Pedro Peña, Eugene Choi, Freddy Freeman, Mary Batson, and pet cat Tawky Tawny are trapped in a subway car that transports them to the Rock of Eternity. There they meet the wizard Shazam who grants each of the children with a different one of the wizard's attributes. Darla Dudley due to her nautral natural athletic abilities is given the speed of Mercury.



Powers and Abilities
Powers

Darla Dudley was granted the Speed of Mercury by the Wizard Shazam:

Superhuman Speed - Granted by Mercury, Heru, Zephyrus and Arel. Chosen ones have incredible amounts of speed which allow them to move, react, and easily move at speeds far exceeding Mach 10 within Earth's atmosphere. It is possible that other uses of their speed aside from running and flying.

Flight - Granted by Mercury, Heru, Zephyrus and Arel. Chosen ones can soar into the skies through an act of sheer will. They can hover completely still or effortlessly achieve sub-orbital levels and travel across the planet in blinding speed.


Powers
Flight
Invulnerability
Super Speed
[/FONT]

 

[Loki882]

That Shazam art is gorgeous. I also REALLY like the idea of a Shazam family. I wish that Geoff Johns would go ahead and just write that Shazam book that's been teased, I'm still waiting Johns.

 

[Loki882]

Isn't Nick Fury's missing eye enough of a handy cap to get him at least half a point?

And Halle Berry is half black and half white so should that only be half a point as well?

Why is Magneto on the list - his age?

You could say that Halle being mixed-race also makes her a minority. So the full point is still justified if you look at it that way. As for Magneto, it's not really his age. He's Romanian, he's Jewish, and he's a Holocaust survivor. Those are more likely to play into it.

 

[Freedom]

I am writing this before I read through all of the other comments, so forgive me if i repeat anything.

I personally think that changing the race of too many beloved characters would be a bad move by Marvel. I can remember growing up as little black kid who loved super heroes no matter what the color. But when a hero came along that had my skin color, it was really special to me. At the time I guess it gave me a little hope of becoming a hero myself. I actually thought that whites were superior to me until I became an adult. That was simply because of what I saw on tv. My people were always slaves, maids, and sidekicks. But today, Nick Fury is a huge step towards blacks earning respect in the comic world. This is one of the racial changes I think really works. Sure, he's not the star of the show and doesn't save the day, but he is in a position of power and he dared to stand up to the white council members who thought they controlled him.

Now, I would not recommend changing Superman, Spidy, Hulk, or Batman into black men. That would just be wrong. But maybe Superman could get ahold of some red kryptonite, have an affair with a black woman and have a mixed superbaby. Or maybe Bruce Banner could give some of his blood to his cousin Jen and her best friend who just happens to be black and create a purple hulk. Just to add some diversity to the more powerful heroes.

I do see an effort to include more Latinos and Asians on tv though. And the rise in popularity of Cyborg is promising. But they took away John Stewart to give us another black Justice League member. I guess we can only have one at a time.

 

[Chance Jackson]

I am writing this before I read through all of the other comments, so forgive me if i repeat anything.

I personally think that changing the race of too many beloved characters would be a bad move by Marvel.

What's too many? When pundits like O'Riley, and Glen Beck start making noise? Or is it when fan boys rage?

Or maybe Bruce Banner could give some of his blood to his cousin Jen and her best friend who just happens to be black and create a purple hulk. Just to add some diversity to the more powerful heroes.

I do see an effort to include more Latinos and Asians on tv though. And the rise in popularity of Cyborg is promising. But they took away John Stewart to give us another black Justice League member. I guess we can only have one at a time.

That and Stewart is only one of many human green lanterns