The Rise of Skywalker ROS What went wrong (Spoilers Welcomed)

Posted this on another thread, but Robert Meyer Burnett has a review of a draft of Trevorrow’s original episode IX script available on his YouTube channel if anyone’s interested.

Here’s a breakdown of the video from Reddit in case anyone doesn’t want to bother watching the whole video.

Would this have been better or worse than the movie we ultimately got? You decide.

Like I said in the other thread, I don't love this outline. But I do like this much more than what we got. This at least would not have been a lame rehash of a movie I enjoyed more the first time.
 
The Tor Vallum stuff is sort of silly. How could Emperor Palpatine have a master that's thousands of years old and that's still alive? Why wouldn't Palpatine have killed this master? Why would this master want to train Kylo Ren as some sort of Dark Side version of Yoda? What happens to Tor Vallum? It's sort of an iffy idea IMO. Basically an evil Dark Side Yoda. Its inclusion makes little sense. Also, wasn't Darth Plagueis the master of Palpatine?

At least it didn't resort to bringing back Palpatine for real.

It does yeah.
I think he got something wrong there because Plagueis master was Darth Tenebrous, whos master was a Twilek sith.
It is a better idea than bringing palpatine back, but bringing plagueis back would have been imo the best solution if you want to use a old sith.
You had a fantastic template with Plagueis, not using it was imo a waste.
The whole training thing also is looking like a waste of time, so that subplot would have been bad.

But overall i like that script.
But then i also think what we got could have worked with an additional hour or a fourth movie.
 
How do you actually bring back Plagueis though if he's dead and Palpatine likely killed him?
 
How do you actually bring back Plagueis though if he's dead and Palpatine likely killed him?

He knew about the secret ways to influencing the midi-chlorians and experimented with ways to cheat death.
I could see him in some way or form be able to have achieved that.
You have cloning and beings that could transfer their consiousness into artifacts and so on, wouldnt be too hard for plagueis to do that and it being In-character.
I think its far better idea than bringing back palpatine, not perfect but i would have done that.
 
But if you believe Palpatine, than Plagueis didn't know how to cheat death for himself.
 
But if you believe Palpatine, than Plagueis didn't know how to cheat death for himself.

True yeah, but who knows...maybe Plagueis hasnt shared everything with Palpatine.
At one point he thought himself to be the choosen one and above everything, so i can see plagueis keeping a tiny part of knowledge to himself knowing how the sith are and that it was always the outcome that palpatine would have tried to kill him.

I mean i like the idea that Palpatine is really that evil mastermind who killed his master in such vicious way and all that...but i always liked the idea of Plagueis having created Anakin to take over his body while his conciousness is locked in some hidden planet not even palpatine knew about because he was able to transfer is conciousness into an artefact while palpatine tortured him to death with is sith lightning.
And that after things went wrong with Anakin, he had clones of him pose as snoke to lure Kylo to the darkside so that he one day can take over his body and return fully.

Its all a matter of stretching canon i think, i mean we all believed getting thrown into a exploding reactor is the sure death of Palpatine.
 
But if you believe Palpatine, than Plagueis didn't know how to cheat death for himself.

We probably would have got the same exact explanation that we got in this movie for Palpatine still being alive. Some bull crap about the dark side of the force being a pathway to abilities some consider to be unnatural.
 
I know it's technically no longer canon, but the Plagueis novel is so good. In the final scene, when Palpatine finally kills him, he feels uneasy about it. He has an eerie feeling come over him. I always loved the ambiguity of that, because I always felt that the way the book ended it was highly suggestive that Plagueis may have indeed cheated death again, or may have even survived in Palpatine somehow. At least that's how I interpreted it. It was definitely not meant as "Palpatine killed his master, the end. Nothing to see here."

Well, from what we learn in TROS, it turns out to be kind of relevant. Palpatine essentially IS "Plagueis". IE "All the Sith". The Rule of Two is not what we thought. A Sith apprentice killing their master in anger is what allows for the master's essence to pass into them. And so it goes on for generations. What TROS did was the most straight forward way to tie that all together, IMO. It gives a throughline for what Palpatine has been up to all along. He's been in search of a new, stronger body. It was supposed to be Anakin. Obi-Wan messed that up and turned him more machine than man. Then in ROTJ, we have him trying to turn Luke. Urging Luke to strike him down. Ever wonder what would've happened if Luke had actually done it? Now we know. That's pretty darn cool.

I liked some ideas in the DotF script, but I really really dislike the Tor Vallum stuff. I cannot get on board with using a brief appearance from Palpatine to prop up some new supposed big bad at the final hour, and then having that pretty much go nowhere on top of it. If this were a standalone film or trilogy? Sure! For the ninth film in a 9 film saga...no bueno. That just doesn't ring true. Not to mention it still seems to offer 0 context as to how Snoke fit into all of that.

I think Trevorrow's film might've been a better/tighter standalone movie, but I prefer how TROS connects the bigger picture stuff.
 
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Well, from what we learn in TROS, it turns out to be kind of relevant. Palpatine essentially IS "Plagueis". IE "All the Sith". The Rule of Two is not what we thought. A Sith apprentice killing their master in anger is what allows for the master's essence to pass into them. And so it goes on for generations. What TROS did was the most straight forward way to tie that all together, IMO. It gives a throughline for what Palpatine has been up to all along. He's been in search of a new, stronger body. It was supposed to be Anakin. Obi-Wan messed that up and turned him more machine than man. Then in ROTJ, we have him trying to turn Luke. Urging Luke to strike him down. Ever wonder what would've happened if Luke had actually done it? Now we know. That's pretty darn cool.

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I like a lot of it actually. That's never a good sign :(

Palpatine's master is cornier than bringing the man back himself. A lot of the other stuff sounds pretty cool. Kylo killing Rey's parents is an added wrinkle that would have at least worked alongside TLJ, so kudos for that. It certainly seems as though PT fans would have got a lot more love from Trevorrow. I kind of love "Dual Of The Fates" as a title.
 
Watched this earlier today, while working, and I dunno--take from it what you will, but lots of nit-picky stuff here. Somethings I agree with and somethings I don't but enough to share with the lot of ya.
 
I know it's technically no longer canon, but the Plagueis novel is so good. In the final scene, when Palpatine finally kills him, he feels uneasy about it. He has an eerie feeling come over him. I always loved the ambiguity of that, because I always felt that the way the book ended it was highly suggestive that Plagueis may have indeed cheated death again, or may have even survived in Palpatine somehow. At least that's how I interpreted it. It was definitely not meant as "Palpatine killed his master, the end. Nothing to see here."

Well, from what we learn in TROS, it turns out to be kind of relevant. Palpatine essentially IS "Plagueis". IE "All the Sith". The Rule of Two is not what we thought. A Sith apprentice killing their master in anger is what allows for the master's essence to pass into them. And so it goes on for generations. What TROS did was the most straight forward way to tie that all together, IMO. It gives a throughline for what Palpatine has been up to all along. He's been in search of a new, stronger body. It was supposed to be Anakin. Obi-Wan messed that up and turned him more machine than man. Then in ROTJ, we have him trying to turn Luke. Urging Luke to strike him down. Ever wonder what would've happened if Luke had actually done it? Now we know. That's pretty darn cool.

I liked some ideas in the DotF script, but I really really dislike the Tor Vallum stuff. I cannot get on board with using a brief appearance from Palpatine to prop up some new supposed big bad at the final hour, and then having that pretty much go nowhere on top of it. If this were a standalone film or trilogy? Sure! For the ninth film in a 9 film saga...no bueno. That just doesn't ring true. Not to mention it still seems to offer 0 context as to how Snoke fit into all of that.

I think Trevorrow's film might've been a better/tighter standalone movie, but I prefer how TROS connects the bigger picture stuff.

I really like the Plagueis novel, it's the best one I've read from SW. I'm not a fan of the ROS explanation though since I think it's much more fitting that the Sith cannot live on after death (apart from what Plagueis may have discovered, which would be pretty irrelevant with the ROS situation). They focus so much on taking all they can from life, but they cannot live on like some of the Jedi managed to do. At best they can leave an imprint that haunts a place or an item, but no more.

I also think it's pretty boring from a character perspective that the Sith Lord won't have true individuality since he's just the rest of the Sith. I'm less interested in this collective Sith entity than I am in the Sith being selfish people that turn evil in their desire for gaining power for themselves.
 
But JJ also toyed with this collective Sith idea. Remember, Palpatine proclaims that he was all the Sith at the end of the movie.
 
I also think it's pretty boring from a character perspective that the Sith Lord won't have true individuality since he's just the rest of the Sith. I'm less interested in this collective Sith entity than I am in the Sith being selfish people that turn evil in their desire for gaining power for themselves.

Either way, I think it basically functions as one big metaphor for the selfish nature of the Sith, and just further demonstrates how they actually thrive on hatred. The idea of Palpatine/Sidious basically being ego/selfishness incarnate, clinging to life and power at any cost. I think there's some room for ambiguity-- I don't think all the Sith have the same personality or that there's no individuality, but I rather like the idea that this same seed of evil lives in all of them and finally culminates with Palpatine. It think it's just a cool and mythological way to accentuate the metaphor that was already there and it works nicely with Palpatine already being a bit of a Trickster archetype.
 
Either way, I think it basically functions as one big metaphor for the selfish nature of the Sith, and just further demonstrates how they actually thrive on hatred. The idea of Palpatine/Sidious basically being ego/selfishness incarnate, clinging to life and power at any cost. I think there's some room for ambiguity-- I don't think all the Sith have the same personality or that there's no individuality, but I rather like the idea that this same seed of evil lives in all of them and finally culminates with Palpatine. It think it's just a cool and mythological way to accentuate the metaphor that was already there and it works nicely with Palpatine already being a bit of a Trickster archetype.

I only think it sounds like selfishness if it's the same Sith that takes control every time. If it's not and they are all supporting the current guy it's not selfish, it's supporting the greater cause instead of oneself. I think that is the trait of the Jedi, who aren't selfish but rather works for their order. The Sith always acted for the Sith cause against the Jedi because they are natural enemies, but no one wanted to play second fiddle to anyone.

It also makes it so that the Sith have always lived on, while the Jedi just recently found out how to do it.

I don't have an issue with you liking it, but the concept doesn't suit me and I think it was better explained before. Then again I'm likely looking at the Skywalker saga as episodes 1-6 and forget the rest, so I don't have to complain I guess.
 
The script is real!
So, now, to the Reddit leak.The short version: they match the details of what insiders close to the projects told about the Trevorrow’s Episode IX screenplay a month ago. A second and third source has just now confirmed to us the script details are indeed real, including the confirmation of the title “Star Wars: Duel Of The Fates.”

Colin Trevorrow's 'Star Wars' Episode IX' Was Called 'Duel Of The Fates' & Its Real

I really like the title “Duel Of Fates” for some reason. It sounds poetic to me. And yes, I’m aware it’s named after a track from John Williams Phantom Menace score.
 
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Watched this earlier today, while working, and I dunno--take from it what you will, but lots of nit-picky stuff here. Somethings I agree with and somethings I don't but enough to share with the lot of ya.


Some of it is nitpicky especially when you put it against the prequels and original trilogy. This is sort of why I don't really empathize with the FANDOM MENACE stuff anymore. It's just incessant raging. I don't have it in me to be that angry.

Like, yeah, Rise of Skywalker was a thud. But...look The Mandalorian. It's awesome. Like moving on.
 
I gave up on watching that video as soon as they started refering to Rose as "Shrek".
 

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