Sam Hamm's original B'89 script

[Swordmaster]

This is true, all parties can be guilty, but that doesn't excuse anyone's actions by saying that everyone's doing it.

 

[Samurai Pasta]

Of course not.

 

[El Payaso]

Nice excuse, but I see you actually did try to convince me later in your post. You just did about those points you actually felt you could explain.

Understand one thing- I'm nottrying to convince you of anything.I've discussed the numerous problems of Batman 89 in other threads, so this has nothing to do with what i felt i 'could explain'.It's just a choice.

Your choice is trying to convince me by replying to me with bare statements, lacking of any further elaboration.

That's why it was so convenient B89 was more than a batsuit.

Actually it was just that - the Batsuit.

The most successful Batman movie was not a public watching a mere bat-suit. If you try and elaborate some argument or at least try and put some humour into your nonsense exaggerations...

Yeah, Robin, the cheesey lines, the POW! WHAM! all over, the Joker henchmen with funny names.

It might as well have.That would have fit in nicely with the soundstage looking gotham,Nicholson's Joker and Elfman's score.

Elfman score would fit the 1966 TV series.

You took my humour-into-nonsense-exaggerations advise to the letter.

Sadly it meant to kiss your credibility good-bye.

In fact BB also tried too hard to be "serious" and "realistic" but every 4 minutes the corny cliché dialogue and terrible one-liners broke that appaerance.

While the dialogue in Begins was less than perfect, it was far better than B89.No comparison there.That being said, Begins suceeded in being both more serious and realistic then B89.By leaps and bounds I might add.

Actually both movies had their triumphs and flaws, but you fail to articulate any of those and limit yourself to groundless statements.

That said, what ever has the supposed campiness to do with character merging? Aren't you trying to reply my question with another totally unrelated complaint?

No, I merely pointed that out as well.Two sepearte issues.Both valid.

Yeah, you merely pointed it out when you had nothing to say about the actual point. That's called dodging.

And comparing B89 to the TV series is just to expose discarnately your lack of understanding and/or your desperation.

No it wasn't. That way you justify hatred and a solid relationship between hero and villiain, not some random our-of-the-blue hatred.

So the way you justify hatred between 2 antagonists is to go for the obvious?Where did you learn that-writing for the screen 101?

As it has always been. People that act for revenge like Batman in B89 have something against someone else because something that someone did to them first. It has been there in thousands of good movies and books. It's not that hard to understand, even for you.

But obvious or not, you just admitted there was a point in that.

Two words: Joe Chill. A face and a name.

Ok.I see it has to be baby steps.I didn't mean it in the literal sense.

Wow, "I didn't mean what I said." This is going to be fun.

What I mean to say is this:JOE CHILL represents the randomness of violence and crime in our society.

Then I state: JACK NAPIER represents the randomness of violence and crime in our society.

Still works.

Joe Chill could be John Doe.

But he's not: He's Joe Chill. A specific guy.

He's no one IMPORTANT-his name and face REPRESENT something bigger than him..

The moment Bruce Wayne sees him killing his parents and later finds out his specific name and last name, yes he IS important.

Bruce Wayne knows for sure there's a specific man with a specific face that's responsible for his parents' death. It's nothing like a symbol for a faceless killer for Bruce untill he understands that there are lots of other "Joe Chills" in the world, so there's no point in focusing his revenge towards the one that kiilled his parents only.

All of which is applicable to Jack Napier too: his name and face represents something bigger than him. Still working.

That said, it was very well handled in BB how Bruce learnt that revenge against him was pointless; merely because some other person killed Chill before him.

The Joker on the other hand is an entirely different entity.

Of course Joe Chill is Joe Chill, Joker is Joker.

But still works as the Waynes killer.

The same Ducard, the mentor of Bruce Wayne and Ra's al Ghul are different entities but the merging worked for BB. Because, you don't think I didn't notice you dodged again the question of Ducard/Ra's.

It seems comic books gave the Wayne's killer a pointless purpose long before Burton. But as one is based on the other, it seems reasonable.

Read above and try not to take everything siad sio literally.Use your brain.

I'm using my brain to spot all of your incoherences and groundless statements and then I'm using my keyboard to write them down.

You have... failed at it.

Again,I'm not trying to convince you of anything.Therefore it'd be hard to fail.

And yet it was very easy for you.

 

[Mr. Socko]

I have no problem withthat.Certainly more believable and for the story served it's purpose.Joker killing Bruce's parents is just a bad Hollywood plot device.

No worse than the billionaire 'Prince of Gotham' hiking through the mountains located somewhere in a desolate region in the slums of a frozen areas of Asia who meets a man in this very area who's plans are to coincidently destroy the very city this random billionaire is from.

 

[K.B.]

Game.

Set.

Match.


Well played Socko, well played.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

No worse than the billionaire 'Prince of Gotham' hiking through the mountains located somewhere in a desolate region in the slums of a frozen areas of Asia who meets a man in this very area who's plans are to coincidently destroy the very city this random billionaire is from.

Wow. Silentflute.........

But seriously, Silentflute has never had valid arguments. All he does is bash as opposed to critique or dissect. His arguments are nothing, and are always disproved. I could easily tear his arguments a new one right now, though I came to the table too late.

Out and out, he's a Burton hater. Which is a sad, pathetic existance. If you hate Burton's stuff to the degree that he does, you're TRYING to hate it. You have an axe to grind. Prefurring Nolan's work is all well and fine, but he has no distinction. Everything he says about prior Batfilms has to be a backdoor insult and praise to Nolan.

 

[silentflute]

Wow. Silentflute doesn't have an axe to grind. He's also not an opinion-Nazi.



People don't agree with you, flute. let it go.


You act is if I care.Nothin to let go on my end.I'm not the one all up in arms because someone dissed a movie I like.

 

[silentflute]

It's the way he expresses them, as if they were beneath him. That's the irritating part.

Get over it dude.t:

 

[silentflute]

Your choice is trying to convince me by replying to me with bare statements, lacking of any further elaboration.

Again, not trying to convince you of anything.Don't need to elaborate any further.I'll save that for folks who are capable of comprehending.



The most successful Batman movie was not a public watching a mere bat-suit. If you try and elaborate some argument or at least try and put some humour into your nonsense exaggerations...

You think the movie made $$ cuz it was a masterpiece??That says a lot.Ok.


Elfman score would fit the 1966 TV series.

You took my humour-into-nonsense-exaggerations advise to the letter.

Sadly it meant to kiss your credibility good-bye.


Yeah actaully it would.It's fluffy and bouncy enough.



Actually both movies had their triumphs and flaws, but you fail to articulate any of those and limit yourself to groundless statements.

I fail to articulate?Ok Shaekspeare.



Yeah, you merely pointed it out when you had nothing to say about the actual point. That's called dodging.

You really need to work on your comprehension.I haven't dodged anything.I specifically adressed the character merging point.More than once.



And comparing B89 to the TV series is just to expose discarnately your lack of understanding and/or your desperation.

Desperation??Are u kidding me?The fact that you've been duped into thinking that B89 is a dark serious take on Batman proves your lack of understanding and blind devotion.



As it has always been. People that act for revenge like Batman in B89 have something against someone else because something that someone did to them first. It has been there in thousands of good movies and books. It's not that hard to understand, even for you.

Yes, it's been inj thousands of good books and movies- BETTER in some than others.It's not the tale it's he how it's told.Unfortunatley for you , B89 fails on every level.

But obvious or not, you just admitted there was a point in that.





Wow, "I didn't mean what I said." This is going to be fun.

No, I DID mean what I said.It's a shame you couldn't read between the lines.



Then I state: JACK NAPIER represents the randomness of violence and crime in our society.

Not nearly as effective as if it's some random thug.

Still works.

Still sucks.



But he's not: He's Joe Chill. A specific guy.

Don't hurt yourself trying to understand this.You're obviously incapable.



The moment Bruce Wayne sees him killing his parents and later finds out his specific name and last name, yes he IS important.


Joe Chill himself isn't important.What he represents in Batman's life is what is important.




Bruce Wayne knows for sure there's a specific man with a specific face that's responsible for his parents' death. It's nothing like a symbol for a faceless killer for Bruce untill he understands that there are lots of other "Joe Chills" in the world, so there's no point in focusing his revenge towards the one that kiilled his parents only.

All of which is applicable to Jack Napier too: his name and face represents something bigger than him. Still working.


Except with Napier it's totally unnecessary.things don't need to be symmetrical.

That said, it was very well handled in BB how Bruce learnt that revenge against him was pointless; merely because some other person killed Chill before him.

Agreed.



Of course Joe Chill is Joe Chill, Joker is Joker.


Hmm.Profound.




But still works as the Waynes killer.


Works?hell anything works.the question isit good?No.



The same Ducard, the mentor of Bruce Wayne and Ra's al Ghul are different entities but the merging worked for BB. Because, you don't think I didn't notice you dodged again the question of Ducard/Ra's.

Never dodged it.I clearly said I had no problem with it.Again you're missing the point.Ducard was never taht big of a cahracter in the Batman mythos.The Joker is.Certain mergers may work, but others fail.


I'm using my brain to spot all of your incoherences and groundless statements and then I'm using my keyboard to write them down.

Funny how these 'groundless statements and incoherences' are only deemed so beacuase you can't understand them.Typical.



And yet it was very easy for you.

To run circles around?Yes.

 

[silentflute]

Wow. Silentflute.........

But seriously, Silentflute has never had valid arguments. All he does is bash as opposed to critique or dissect. His arguments are nothing, and are always disproved. I could easily tear his arguments a new one right now, though I came to the table too late.


You couldn't tear anyone's argument down if I gave you a bulldozer.This isn't 90210, and you aint part of an elite click.wake up.




Out and out, he's a Burton hater. Which is a sad, pathetic existance.

I don't hate burton.I just don't think he has any understanding of Batman.In fact he's more fascinated with batman's rogue gallery than he is with batman himself.the fact that you would say anyone who hated Burton leads a pathetic existance shows exactly the ignorant mentality that dominates some of these boards.Bravo.


If you hate Burton's stuff to the degree that he does, you're TRYING to hate it. You have an axe to grind. Prefurring Nolan's work is all well and fine, but he has no distinction. Everything he says about prior Batfilms has to be a backdoor insult and praise to Nolan.

No,it doesn't.I rarely get into these discussions, but the truth speaks for itself.Some people, like yourself,just don't get it.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

Flute, you're dead wrong, of course. Payaso's been literally DESTROYING your arguments. You're only coming back with the equivalent of "Are not!!"

You're egotistical, petty, immature and ignorant. No one cares that you have an opinion. You just have some kind of problem that makes you think yours is correct and that everyone wants to hear it. And I'll tell you one thing, I don't think the mods will take kindly to your continued oversensitive responses. You want to make more trouble by goading people into fighting more. That much is obvious.

Get this into your head, if you can. Nolan being better than Burton is NOT a fact. It's your opinion. Just as Burton being better than Nolan is ours. But we're not going around telling people that their opinion is wrong. So take your pompous, egotistically ******ed ass out of here. You're the one in the wrong here by deliberately stirring up trouble. You can voice your opinion without being a dick, you choose not to because you want to start a fight. You are out-and-out trolling. And if you're not, give me solid arguments to the contrary.

That's right, you can't. I want to draw everyone's attention to the fact that Silentfute is the one who hijacked this thread by taking potshots at Burton and Hamm. There were no problems beforehand, and we "Burtonites" weren't doing anything wrong. I'm sick of the rap that we're fools because we don't like with the new franchise, that we're always sneakily tearing it down. We don't do jack ****. Worthless human beings like silentflute are the jackasses who can't take US. They think it's funny to stir up trouble and then when it gets too hot, point the finger at us. I'm sick of the indignant arrogance of Nolanites. A Nolanite is what we call somebody like Silentflute. He lives to be a Nolan-loving opinion Nazi. I don't give a damn if you don't like Burton's interpretation. But the fact that he'd come in here, make backdoor praises to Nolan while insulting Burton is atrocious. Add to the fact that if we did the same, all of the Nolanites would be up in arms for us to be banned. But we're better than that.

Yeah, blah, blah, blah. Doc's being overly dramatic. C'mon. Everyone can see the truth. These stupid divisions DO exist on SHH's Batman forums. Dumb as it may be. Burtonites aren't being directly attacked anymore, that ended sometime after BB's hype wore down, now it's just rogue idiots like Silentflute. But 10 to 1, if any such of these fights break-out, a Nolanite caused it, and Burtonites were being reasonable. Look it up in most any BvN thread. It's plain as day. I'm sick of people like Silentflute doing this and getting away to do it again sometime. Mr. LOL got the immediate boot, I think that flute needs the same. He's cut from the same cloth. He's a team player on the Nolan boards, but only comes here to fight.

Granted, a lot of the people on the Nolan boards have this capacity. You can see it in the way they post, the immature ones, espeically. But only the ones like Mr. LOL and Silentflute earn the title of "Nolanite". I don't want people to be confused. I'm not knocking fans of Nolan. Even I like some of the stuff he's doing. A Nolanite is the worthless, scum-sucking fan of Nolan who lives to praise him and attack Burton and our opinions. Yeah, I'm being a little overdramatic, but analyze the situation people. As dumb as it sounds, it's all true. I've been around the board long enough to see it all unfold.

 

[Immortalfire]

Make your arguments without being d!cks, guys.

 

[Hunter Rider]

^^^^What 'Fire said......This thread is close to getting the lock, it's circular and two sides that totally disagree repeating themselves.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Flute, you're dead wrong, of course. Payaso's been literally DESTROYING your arguments. You're only coming back with the equivalent of "Are not!!"

You're egotistical, petty, immature and ignorant. No one cares that you have an opinion. You just have some kind of problem that makes you think yours is correct and that everyone wants to hear it. And I'll tell you one thing, I don't think the mods will take kindly to your continued oversensitive responses. You want to make more trouble by goading people into fighting more. That much is obvious.

You can put such a strong post forth, insults are unessicary.

That's right, you can't. I want to draw everyone's attention to the fact that Silentfute is the one who hijacked this thread by taking potshots at Burton and Hamm. There were no problems beforehand, and we "Burtonites" weren't doing anything wrong. I'm sick of the rap that we're fools because we don't like with the new franchise, that we're always sneakily tearing it down. We don't do jack ****. Worthless human beings like silentflute are the jackasses who can't take US. They think it's funny to stir up trouble and then when it gets too hot, point the finger at us. I'm sick of the indignant arrogance of Nolanites. A Nolanite is what we call somebody like Silentflute. He lives to be a Nolan-loving opinion Nazi. I don't give a damn if you don't like Burton's interpretation. But the fact that he'd come in here, make backdoor praises to Nolan while insulting Burton is atrocious. Add to the fact that if we did the same, all of the Nolanites would be up in arms for us to be banned. But we're better than that.

Having read both sets who choose to singurlarise themselves not as batman fans but merely as fans of one directors vision of the charactter i can safely say BOTH sides are as bad as each other when it comes to handing down judgment.

Silentflute can criticize Burton in this thread if he wishes however I'd agree that his approach is not conducive to a good discussion and thus am dealing with it....You really need to knock the insults off though, you are going way over the top.

Yeah, blah, blah, blah. Doc's being overly dramatic. C'mon. Everyone can see the truth. These stupid divisions DO exist on SHH's Batman forums. Dumb as it may be. Burtonites aren't being directly attacked anymore, that ended sometime after BB's hype wore down, now it's just rogue idiots like Silentflute. But 10 to 1, if any such of these fights break-out, a Nolanite caused it, and Burtonites were being reasonable. Look it up in most any BvN thread. It's plain as day. I'm sick of people like Silentflute doing this and getting away to do it again sometime. Mr. LOL got the immediate boot, I think that flute needs the same. He's cut from the same cloth. He's a team player on the Nolan boards, but only comes here to fight.

As someone that mods this section i'd again say that both sides have some incredibly annoying and closed minded ppl incapable of actually debating these films without catching more feelings than a teenage girl at a Justin Timberlake concert.

Just FYI, Mr LOL was not banned for his posts in the Burton threads, he was banned b/c when we checked to put him on probation we discovered he had 8 other banned SN's.

Granted, a lot of the people on the Nolan boards have this capacity. You can see it in the way they post, the immature ones, espeically. But only the ones like Mr. LOL and Silentflute earn the title of "Nolanite". I don't want people to be confused. I'm not knocking fans of Nolan. Even I like some of the stuff he's doing. A Nolanite is the worthless, scum-sucking fan of Nolan who lives to praise him and attack Burton and our opinions. Yeah, I'm being a little overdramatic, but analyze the situation people. As dumb as it sounds, it's all true. I've been around the board long enough to see it all unfold.

The stuff i highlighted is again way over the top, I am gonna let it slide this time but knock off this intense hatred and insulting, if an issue pops up come to me before it gets to this ridiculous stage.

 

[Mr. Socko]

You act is if I care.Nothin to let go on my end.I'm not the one all up in arms because someone dissed a movie I like.

I'd say the fact that you're taking apart posts and starting petty arguments show you care, and even more than you believe.

 

[Redwoods Wolf]

So yeah, the Hamm script.

Pros: I particularly liked the bits about the armor, how he found the cave..."Wipe that lunatic grin off your face!" "Ha! That's the best part! I CAN'T!" Batman seems to be in the O'Neal/Adams version, which I also liked. (Even if he came across as a bit too "jokey.") The Batwing vs. the Tank was a big improvement over the movie (Batman's weapons trying and failing to penetrate a tank's hide is much more palatable to me than aiming for the Joker with his high-tech, costs-a-fortune gear and just plain missing. That scene has always and will always bug me.) Joker telling his goons to waste the Bat as he escapes is nice too, as is Harvey Dent,stickler for the law--a very clear, very elegant setup for Two-Face.

Cons: Vicki onto Bruce/Batman after their first encounter, Robin (completely wasted and superfluous), Joker unmasking Bats, the bitter "love triangle."

Overall, good, but I'm glad they went the way they did for the movie (except for the Batwing bit. Definitely should have gone with the tank for that scene).

 

[DocLathropBrown]

You can put such a strong post forth, insults are unessicary.

Just venting, Hunter. I know full well that my behavior was not much better than those I claim to be better than. I know my own hypocracy. But every once in a while, I need to rant angrilly about it. For as much as I try to disassociate myself from such petty squabbling, sometimes it strikes a chord in me.

I don't care what anyone says. There exists in a lot of Nolanites the desire to kick up a fight with Burtonites. Less so in Burtonites for the opposite, but yeah, they exist, too. I'm just sick of people dismissing the Nolanites' behavior, because there's a startling amount of squabbling started by them and carried further by Burtonites who get riled up. Typically, we're happy to just stay in our own forum and talk about our films. I hardly see any occurance of fights started by Burtonites in the Nolan film forums. Most of the fights happen here.

 

[Hunter Rider]

The very fact that you seperate and label in of itself says a lot about your mentality (ie Nolanites,Burtonites).

Bottom line is this- you made a jackass of yourself.No what are you going to do about it?***** and moan...or learn from it?

This is an official warning, Why are you stirring the pot ? I ended this last night and you are ALL as bad as each other in this situation.

I don't care what anyone says. There exists in a lot of Nolanites the desire to kick up a fight with Burtonites. Less so in Burtonites for the opposite, but yeah, they exist, too. I'm just sick of people dismissing the Nolanites' behavior, because there's a startling amount of squabbling started by them and carried further by Burtonites who get riled up. Typically, we're happy to just stay in our own forum and talk about our films. I hardly see any occurance of fights started by Burtonites in the Nolan film forums. Most of the fights happen here.

The "Nolanites" are greater in numbers these days so maybe it seems this way but Ive had to deal with just as many situations over the other side of the water as well.

To be honest i am quite saddened that i am not seeing Batman fans but ppl segregating themselves as fans of a singular directors vision.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

So yeah, the Hamm script.

Pros: I particularly liked the bits about the armor, how he found the cave..."Wipe that lunatic grin off your face!" "Ha! That's the best part! I CAN'T!" Batman seems to be in the O'Neal/Adams version, which I also liked. (Even if he came across as a bit too "jokey.") The Batwing vs. the Tank was a big improvement over the movie (Batman's weapons trying and failing to penetrate a tank's hide is much more palatable to me than aiming for the Joker with his high-tech, costs-a-fortune gear and just plain missing. That scene has always and will always bug me.) Joker telling his goons to waste the Bat as he escapes is nice too, as is Harvey Dent,stickler for the law--a very clear, very elegant setup for Two-Face.

Cons: Vicki onto Bruce/Batman after their first encounter, Robin (completely wasted and superfluous), Joker unmasking Bats, the bitter "love triangle."

Overall, good, but I'm glad they went the way they did for the movie (except for the Batwing bit. Definitely should have gone with the tank for that scene).

Hamm's script is very Silver Age. I love it.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

The "Nolanites" are greater in numbers these days so maybe it seems this way but Ive had to deal with just as many situations over the other side of the water as well.

No doubt. Though I really think the biggest flaw in the Burtonites is the inability to ignore outright bashing of Burton. Something I attest to as well. Well, that's not quite right. Most times I argue about it reasonably, it's just when the argument is with someone who comes across as beligerent that I return the sentiment without trying.

To be honest i am quite saddened that i am not seeing Batman fans but ppl segregating themselves as fans of a singular directors vision.

The problem is that both sides are really anal-retentive and defensive because of the hostility. Were Nolan's films sequels, there wouldn't be the mentality of "this is better." At least, not to the degree that exists. The fact of it being a restarted franchise draws parallels immediately. Since a restart means that the previous franchise was riddled with errors. Anti-Burtonites being purposely callous and cruel gets Burtonites riled up. Some Burtonites outright attack Nolan's franchise and the pleased fans of it. And I think there's a big mentality out there of prejudging Burton's franchise in light of Nolan's, just writing it off, which doesn't help things.

Being fans of different visions wouldn't be the problem. I've had countless numbers of great discussions with people on the other side. It's the people who deliberately stir up trouble and go out of their way to be insulting that are the real problem, which won't change, unfortunately, unless we decide to screen members for their maturity level before they register. Too often I'm spurred into scornful discussion to give the guy back a taste of his own beligerency. It's not hard to respect others' opinions, it just hard to deal with people like Silentflute being so smugly critical.

But then, Silentflute obviously has no desire to be reasonable in an argument. Otherwise, a fight wouldn't have happened. I think he just wanted to bash Burton and that's all. Even if his arguments are disproved, he just seems to shrug it off. Now I don't even know why the Hell I bothered, re-realizing this.

 

[Hunter Rider]

The problem is that both sides are really anal-retentive and defensive because of the hostility. Were Nolan's films sequels, there wouldn't be the mentality of "this is better." At least, not to the degree that exists. The fact of it being a restarted franchise draws parallels immediately. Since a restart means that the previous franchise was riddled with errors. Anti-Burtonites being purposely callous and cruel gets Burtonites riled up. Some Burtonites outright attack Nolan's franchise and the pleased fans of it. And I think there's a big mentality out there of prejudging Burton's franchise in light of Nolan's, just writing it off, which doesn't help things.

That's an interesting point as I'd have figured the blame lay with Schumacher for the perceived problems with the prior franchise although i know many feel Returns was the beginning of the massive direction shift.

Being fans of different visions wouldn't be the problem. I've had countless numbers of great discussions with people on the other side. It's the people who deliberately stir up trouble and go out of their way to be insulting that are the real problem, which won't change, unfortunately, unless we decide to screen members for their maturity level before they register. Too often I'm spurred into scornful discussion to give the guy back a taste of his own beligerency. It's not hard to respect others' opinions.

I can see your point, the issue lays not in the fan but in the approach of the fan to the debate, my only point was, are some of you guys not just Batman fans in general as opposed to an "Ite" of any director ? One of the things that grates on me as even a fan of BB is the way some seem to think Nolan created Batman or made him "better" through his approach.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

That's an interesting point as I'd have figured the blame lay with Schumacher for the perceived problems with the prior franchise although i know many feel Returns was the beginning of the massive direction shift.

Well, fans of Nolan seem to blow things out of preportion. Two or three errors from Burton and they dismiss any and all other merits that Burton's films may have.

Though in the end, I really find it infuriating. A lot of Nolanites refuse to be fair on the topic. There's several posts over in the TDK forum where people state about Ledger that "We're finally going to get a true portrayal of the Joker in live action," which I feel is not only ignorant of history, but deliberately biased. Whereas you can find many Burtonites singing the praises of Hamill, Romero and even some anticipating Ledger, the only difference is that Nicholson is their pillar, not their be-all-end-all. At least not in most cases.

Nolan's franchise also gets a better rap because of other variables. Being made today, we have a window into the production and we get constantly placated as fanboys. Burton's films are older and there are a lot of youngsters on the Nolan forums (At least, I'm guessing by poor grammer, immature behavior, bad sentence structure and low post counts), and with youth comes a disrespect for history and a focus on the new. Were Burton's films made today, it would be common knowledge that Bob Kane was very involved in the productions, that several sources from the books were used in the filmmaking process.

The Burton films are stereotyped as inaccurate films made by a stodgy, weird guy who never read a comic book in his life, not even for the films, and that changed things for no reason. And there's a staggering amount of newer fans who believe this and it's perpetuating. It doesn't help that Nolan's films aire on the side of spoonfeeding info to the audience, so that Burton's subtextual appraoch seems archaic or nonexistant. Arguing with these people, it's evident that everything Burton does in these flicks are missed or ignored (either deliberately or not) by a populace who "gets" the depth of BB, but unbeknownst to them, it's because the film was made to leave no possible room for question. It's a masterpiece to so many people because there's no room for argument with it, the film's intentions are clear as a bell.

For someone who followed the production of Burton's films, it is evident that the stereotype is the exact opposite. Nolan has made just as many changes to the Batman universe as Burton. He loved the characters, understood them, and every change he made was an artistic decision based on a love of the characters and a desire to make the best films he could. Burton deliberately made the films so rich in subtext that we have this room for discussion, that we can still analyze the films and come up with different opinions so many years later. Burton read all of the right comic books to make the films, honestly used DC's material as an inspiration. He was just not an avid fan. He wouldn't be here discussing the comics with us, but for the making of the films, he obviously paid a great deal of attention to the stuff. He worked prettymuch hand-in-hand with Kane on the first film, by all accounts.

It is this information that escapes "Nolanites," weather deliberately or because some of them don't know any better.

I can see your point, the issue lays not in the fan but in the approach of the fan to the debate, my only point was, are some of you guys not just Batman fans in general as opposed to an "Ite" of any director ? One of the things that grates on me as even a fan of BB is the way some seem to think Nolan created Batman or made him "better" through his approach.

It's true that there are a few "Burtonites" who are obviously just fans of Burton first, Batman second. Batwing6655, Spider Bat and GoogleMe94 are those obvious offenders. Whereas I and a lot of other Burtonites are pure fans of Batman who find the merits that exist in Burton's films and find that although great, Nolan's films are just more adaptations, not the be-all-end-all. I also think that the Burton films have a slight underdog syndrome which make Burtonites more quick to defend it (not in undue circumstances, though) because of the stereotype of them being poorly made. I honestly don't know if there's any "Nolanites first, Batmanite second" people, although there could be.

But like I said earlier, Nolanites can blow things out of preportion. BB was such a critical hit that I'd say it ignited egos. Not only was BB more revered than many other comic book films, but it got more acclaim that those stodgy, totally inaccurate POS films by Burton? Nolan's films are better, and it's 100% fact.

I'd say that moreover, outside of a few rogues, the Burtonites are more offensive as a result of being defensive. A lot of us know that in recent circles, Burton's films are dismissed (debateably prematurely) as poor without second thoughts, and it angers us and bothers us that what we loved as fans of Batman is devoid of a lot of credit that we think it deserves.

I mean, c'mon. Burton's films aren't loved by a staggering amount of Batfans for nothing. They've obviously got plenty of merits.

I honestly think that if BB had been less well recieved by general critics, than the tide here would be very different. BB's success went to a lot of people's heads, making a semi-elitist group. If the success had been much smaller, that Burtonites would probably be looked at as equals instead of "stoid, conservative fools who can't get with the program, who like outdated, inaccurate adaptations."

And I think in the end, there's a stereotype of Burton fans as well. I do come across sometimes as an unyeilding Burton supporter, but mostly, I get painted as such without due cause. So do a lot of Burtonites. Look, we're just Batman fans who have problems with Nolan's franchise, and we voice those opinions. It doesn't mean we loathe Nolan's material. If anything, I think we're just slightly put off by the overwhelming acceptance of them when we find some things about them less than great. We just prefur Burton. Whereas I think a lot of Nolanites just love Nolan's films and that's all.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Well, fans of Nolan seem to blow things out of preportion. Two or three errors from Burton and they dismiss any and all other merits that Burton's films may have.

I have to say a lot of this is news to me as far as B89 is concerned, the view i always got was that they blamed Shumacher for killing Batman and the main issue they had with Burton was that he veered from his B89 style on Returns and went all Gothic freakshow which lead to WB bringing in Schumacher. Oddly i actually prefer BR to B89 these days.

Though in the end, I really find it infuriating. A lot of Nolanites refuse to be fair on the topic. There's several posts over in the TDK forum where people state about Ledger that "We're finally going to get a true portrayal of the Joker in live action," which I feel is not only ignorant of history, but deliberately biased. Whereas you can find many Burtonites singing the praises of Hamill, Romero and even some anticipating Ledger, the only difference is that Nicholson is their pillar, not their be-all-end-all. At least not in most cases.

Nolan's franchise also gets a better rap because of other variables. Being made today, we have a window into the production and we get constantly placated as fanboys. Burton's films are older and there are a lot of youngsters on the Nolan forums (At least, I'm guessing by poor grammer, immature behavior, bad sentence structure and low post counts), and with youth comes a disrespect for history and a focus on the new. Were Burton's films made today, it would be common knowledge that Bob Kane was very involved in the productions, that several sources from the books were used in the filmmaking process.

The Burton films are stereotyped as inaccurate films made by a stodgy, weird guy who never read a comic book in his life, not even for the films, and that changed things for no reason. And there's a staggering amount of newer fans who believe this and it's perpetuating. It doesn't help that Nolan's films aire on the side of spoonfeeding info to the audience, so that Burton's subtextual appraoch seems archaic or nonexistant. Arguing with these people, it's evident that everything Burton does in these flicks are missed or ignored (either deliberately or not) by a populace who "gets" the depth of BB, but unbeknownst to them, it's because the film was made to leave no possible room for question. It's a masterpiece to so many people because there's no room for argument with it, the film's intentions are clear as a bell.

For someone who followed the production of Burton's films, it is evident that the stereotype is the exact opposite. Nolan has made just as many changes to the Batman universe as Burton. He loved the characters, understood them, and every change he made was an artistic decision based on a love of the characters and a desire to make the best films he could. Burton deliberately made the films so rich in subtext that we have this room for discussion, that we can still analyze the films and come up with different opinions so many years later. Burton read all of the right comic books to make the films, honestly used DC's material as an inspiration. He was just not an avid fan. He wouldn't be here discussing the comics with us, but for the making of the films, he obviously paid a great deal of attention to the stuff. He worked prettymuch hand-in-hand with Kane on the first film, by all accounts.

You are certainly passionate about this, ive not read this many pargraphs on SHH in a while lol, I'd say there is certainly a youth element who feel the need to trash the past to emphasise the present, As for the Joker stuff, i fully agree, the character has been written a number of times with various tweaks, each will have their merits and to dismiss a classic turn by Jack is a very blind view to take.

As for the Subtext, well I'd agree the "smarts" in BB are pretty much sign posted, it is a film classily made and astutely made to make it's audience "know" they have seen some depth if you take my meaning, With B89 i saw a Gothic pop movie with some iconic images, moodily atmospheric sets and a stand out Joker performance, not sure of the subtext you speak of but it's been a couple of years since i watched it.

It's true that there are a few "Burtonites" who are obviously just fans of Burton first, Batman second. Batwing6655, Spider Bat and GoogleMe94 are those obvious offenders. Whereas I and a lot of other Burtonites are pure fans of Batman who find the merits that exist in Burton's films and find that although great, Nolan's films are just more adaptations, not the be-all-end-all. I also think that the Burton films have a slight underdog syndrome which make Burtonites more quick to defend it (not in undue circumstances, though) because of the stereotype of them being poorly made. I honestly don't know if there's any "Nolanites first, Batmanite second" people, although there could be.

Oh there are a few ive seen, as for underdog, that is strange given how B89 pretty much blew up in a way that BB didn't.

But like I said earlier, Nolanites can blow things out of preportion. BB was such a critical hit that I'd say it ignited egos. Not only was BB more revered than many other comic book films, but it got more acclaim that those stodgy, totally inaccurate POS films by Burton? Nolan's films are better, and it's 100% fact.

I'd say that moreover, outside of a few rogues, the Burtonites are more offensive as a result of being defensive. A lot of us know that in recent circles, Burton's films are dismissed (debateably prematurely) as poor without second thoughts, and it angers us and bothers us that what we loved as fans of Batman is devoid of a lot of credit that we think it deserves.

I mean, c'mon. Burton's films aren't loved by a staggering amount of Batfans for nothing. They've obviously got plenty of merits.

I honestly think that if BB had been less well recieved by general critics, than the tide here would be very different. BB's success went to a lot of people's heads, making a semi-elitist group. If the success had been much smaller, that Burtonites would probably be looked at as equals instead of "stoid, conservative fools who can't get with the program, who like outdated, inaccurate adaptations."

And I think in the end, there's a stereotype of Burton fans as well. I do come across sometimes as an unyeilding Burton supporter, but mostly, I get painted as such without due cause. So do a lot of Burtonites. Look, we're just Batman fans who have problems with Nolan's franchise, and we voice those opinions. It doesn't mean we loathe Nolan's material. If anything, I think we're just slightly put off by the overwhelming acceptance of them when we find some things about them less than great. We just prefur Burton. Whereas I think a lot of Nolanites just love Nolan's films and that's all.

Would it be fair to say that your love of the Burton movies and the hatred for them by the fans of the Nolan movies have led to you having a bias as well ? i don't see you much in the TDK section like myself or Keyser Sushi (posters who like both) discussing the new movie on it's pros/cons, you seem to ignore the new film from a posting perspective and stay in here which may lead to the perception that you hate the new stuff.

The fact BB was so well received was indeed cause for much arrogance, not only towards Burton's movies but towards comic book movies in general, which is odd since both Spidey 1 and 2 were better received.
how was B89 received critically in 89 ? (sorry i was only 9 at the time and didn't read reviews back then lol)

 

[DocLathropBrown]

As for the Subtext, well I'd agree the "smarts" in BB are pretty much sign posted, it is a film classily made and astutely made to make it's audience "know" they have seen some depth if you take my meaning, With B89 i saw a Gothic pop movie with some iconic images, moodily atmospheric sets and a stand out Joker performance, not sure of the subtext you speak of but it's been a couple of years since i watched it.

There's a lot of threads in the misc forum where you'd find examples of the depth, discussed.

Would it be fair to say that your love of the Burton movies and the hatred for them by the fans of the Nolan movies have led to you having a bias as well ? i don't see you much in the TDK section like myself or Keyser Sushi (posters who like both) discussing the new movie on it's pros/cons, you seem to ignore the new film from a posting perspective and stay in here which may lead to the perception that you hate the new stuff.

I admit that I have a bias, like anyone does. My preference is the manifestation of that bias. But I deliberately leave that out of the equation in a discussion that requires that I do so. There's a lot of posters who don't do this in a discussion, like GoogleMe94.

Truly, the biggest reasons I stay out of the TDK forum are two. First (and this is more of an internal "sense" on my part--could be wrong), people know of me going in and assume that I'm going to be a Burton-loving fanboy and be unreasonable, so they get unreasonable first. I don't know if it's that or an immaturity in a lot of them, but I've said things in there before that were mild criticisms of Nolan and I got everything but the kitchen sink thrown at me. I'd understand it if I'd been outright bashing, but I was just voicing problems with what I thought Nolan might be doing to the Joker, among other things. Just trying to be a Batman fan in general. The climate in there is very much pro-Nolan, and you're less than welcome to a lot of people in there if you're the opposite. Even worse if you overtly praise the old inaccurate Burton movies. Simply put, I think there's an oversensitivity there.

Second, the overwhelming love of Nolan in there, the elitist attitude that can exists to a Burton fan turns me off. Knowing my own limitations, it's hard not to start arguing with people in there. I admit I've developed a complex where it's hard to be supportive of Nolan because of all the fighting and junk. I find Nolan to be so overrated in some ways that to be among that crowd finds me feeling "not into it". I'd love to be in there discussing the merits of the new Batman film, but the climate in there is not neutral and incondusive to a skeptical supporter of Nolan.

And BTW, Keyser Soze is awesome. I think he's one of the greatest posters here along with CCon, Keven Roegele, MirandaFox and El Payaso!

how was B89 received critically in 89 ? (sorry i was only 9 at the time and didn't read reviews back then lol)

Very, very well recieved. It was loved then as much as BB is now.

It's just funny how times change. Times slips away, stereotypes are built and then a well loved film is frowned upon for a few (I feel) foolish reasons.

I tell you, though. I'd love to be able to function in the TDK forum better. I'd die to be able to reasonably discuss the pros/cons of TDK with fellow Batfans and get caught up in the hype. I think I really need to work on my immaturities so that I can get past the slight Burton bashing that goes on in there, I want to talk about the new Batfilm as a Batman fan, dammit.

 

[Hunter Rider]

There's a lot of threads in the misc forum where you'd find examples of the depth, discussed.

I guess i really should crack open my two disc SE i bought a few months back and see if i can see them.

Truly, the biggest reasons I stay out of the TDK forum are two. First (and this is more of an internal "sense" on my part--could be wrong), people know of me going in and assume that I'm going to be a Burton-loving fanboy and be unreasonable, so they get unreasonable first. I don't know if it's that or an immaturity in a lot of them, but I've said things in there before that were mild criticisms of Nolan and I got everything but the kitchen sink thrown at me. I'd understand it if I'd been outright bashing, but I was just voicing problems with what I thought Nolan might be doing to the Joker, among other things. Just trying to be a Batman fan in general. The climate in there is very much pro-Nolan, and you're less than welcome to a lot of people in there if you're the opposite. Even worse if you overtly praise the old inaccurate Burton movies. Simply put, I think there's an oversensitivity there.

I can imagine that having your reputation proceed you canmake things difficult, it's hard to make an anti Nolan choice argument without being seen as a Burton fan.

Second, the overwhelming love of Nolan in there, the elitist attitude that can exists to a Burton fan turns me off. Knowing my own limitations, it's hard not to start arguing with people in there. I admit I've developed a complex where it's hard to be supportive of Nolan because of all the fighting and junk. I find Nolan to be so overrated in some ways that to be among that crowd finds me feeling "not into it". I'd love to be in there discussing the merits of the new Batman film, but the climate in there is not neutral and incondusive to a skeptical supporter of Nolan.

I can understand that as well, that's the reason i couldn't post abour SR at Bluetights.

And BTW, Keyser Soze is awesome. I think he's one of the greatest posters here along with CCon, Keven Roegele, MirandaFox and El Payaso!

I was actually referring to Keyser Suhi but yeah Soze is also a great posters as are th others you mentioned.

Very, very well recieved. It was loved then as much as BB is now.

It's just funny how times change. Times slips away, stereotypes are built and then a well loved film is frowned upon for a few (I feel) foolish reasons.

It's true how time can change a perception and erode context.

I tell you, though. I'd love to be able to function in the TDK forum better. I'd die to be able to reasonably discuss the pros/cons of TDK with fellow Batfans and get caught up in the hype. I think I really need to work on my immaturities so that I can get past the slight Burton bashing that goes on in there, I want to talk about the new Batfilm as a Batman fan, dammit.

I hope you do, I'd like another thougthfull voice in there.