Scottish Independence

[The Strategos]

I thought that since there was a politics section and this issue is coming up for a referrendum I though I would throw open a discussion !

 

[Godzilla2000]

Since I live here in America I'm afraid I don't know very much about the referendum you're talking about. Perhaps some various links to different news websites would help?

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I've always wanted to try haggis, but don't think it would be too good outside of Scotland.

 

[Hobgoblin]

This is why I love this section. All of these different issues around the world get a personal touch from locals. We here in the States will occasionally hear something about Scottish independence but only in passing. All I know is that it comes up in politics every so often but never seems to go anywhere. Kind of like independence for Quebec.

 

[Franklin Richards]

At least we have Texas.

 

[The Strategos]

Ha Ha Ha Franklin Richards, if you take your avatar out of context with that last statement it looks really funny!
But this time it's quite serious. The Scots will be taking a referendum in 2014 and the campaigning on either side has already begun. Admittedly, it isn't legally binding but I think it'll be pretty difficult for Parliment to ignore the Scots if they vote a resounding yes for indepence. You have to mark to guile of the Scottish National Party leader Alex Salmond though and the wetness of David Cameron. DC wanted the referrendum as soon as possible whereas AS wanted in 2014 and got it. It's obvious why he wants it then. This year we have the British Olympics and the Queen's Diamond Jubilee - pro-British feeling will be at it's highest. In 2014 Scotland will be hosting the Commonwealth Games and hopefully the economy will be looking better - pro-independance feeling will be at it's highest. Of course, it would be a massive blow for the liberal and labour parties if they left becasue they get a lot of their seats from up there!

 

[Belvedere]

Scotland will vote no.

Whilst most people want a say on Scottish independence and resent attempts to deny them it, support for the Union has and will remain, I suspect, solid amongst Scottish people. I personally don't share your optimism on the economy, in fact much the opposite. People will be more worried about employment and keeping above the breadline than they will about independence. Should the "no" campaign scaremonger about a loss of jobs should Scotland break away, the people will vote with their wallets as they often do.

 

[The Strategos]

That would be nice as I have absolutely no desire to see my country dissintegrate!

 

[Godzilla2000]

Hmmm...I have to say during the times of William Wallace and Rob Roy when Britain was persecuting the Scots and doing heinous things to the people absolute freedom would have been a good thing. But in this modern age of stalling economies I don't think severing ties with England would be a good thing. Of course I could be wrong and maybe a self sustaining country with its own economy away from Britain and the EU might be good for the people.

 

[The Strategos]

Without trying to start a massive arguement might I remind you that you Scots aren't so clean and have committed your fair share of atrocities and invasions on English soil. Remember the battle of Flodden? Also, remember the things that we have achieved together, after the union of 1707!

 

[Godzilla2000]

Like I said, I'm American and we aren't taught extensively about European or Asian history. Any knowledge we gain is either through the movies or from self research in a local library, which considering what a mush melon culture we have doesn't occur very often. The level of dumbed down people is growing in the United states fed by vacuous people like the Kardashians and the Jersey Shoe crew.

 

[The Strategos]

Ah, sorry, I forgot that you were American! All I can say is that, yes, terrible atrocities have been commited against the Scots but the Scots have done awful things too and that it is far from clear cut. For instance, the Jacobite rebellion was more a battle between Catholic Highlanders and English Protestants and Scotish Lowland Presbyterians (who were terrified of losing their religious freedom under the Jacobite Catholics) than between Scots and English. But again I apologise for not having the wit to look up the page!

 

[Godzilla2000]

Oh lol, don't apologize at all! If anyone should be apologizing it should be the American education system for not fostering a love for history and culture.

 

[The Strategos]

! Thanks Godzilla2000!

 

[Kelly]

This is why I love this section. All of these different issues around the world get a personal touch from locals. We here in the States will occasionally hear something about Scottish independence but only in passing. All I know is that it comes up in politics every so often but never seems to go anywhere. Kind of like independence for Quebec.

Well Quebec's population has had 2 votes over the years and came very close both times to succeeding...only a little over 2,000 votes kept them with Canada....

As far as Scotland....there seems to be a large Nationalistic feeling moving through Europe once again....so who knows.

 

[Thor The Mighty]

As I can remember reading the Scots were not thrilled about the idea of union in the first place back in the early 18th century. They even rioted in some places. What would Scotland gain by leaving the UK?

 

[Pink Ranger]

In the spirit of this thread, this needs to be posted:

 

[The Infernal]

Ah, sorry, I forgot that you were American! All I can say is that, yes, terrible atrocities have been commited against the Scots but the Scots have done awful things too and that it is far from clear cut. For instance, the Jacobite rebellion was more a battle between Catholic Highlanders and English Protestants and Scotish Lowland Presbyterians (who were terrified of losing their religious freedom under the Jacobite Catholics) than between Scots and English. But again I apologise for not having the wit to look up the page!

I honestly don't think this is all that relevant. That's like the Tories saying that the Jacobite rebellion was a Tory rebellion as if it should make a difference to Scots disliking Tories today. It's centuries old history few really care about and the main point about independence is just to be independent, not to be independent from the English.

Though personally I'm sceptical of true independence not only because I've not been convinced by the arguments, but because I believe we'd likely have to renegotiate so many deals in government and in business that it would be a mess for not only Scotland, but for the UK to clear up for years before anything good could really come of it.

What would Scotland gain by leaving the UK?

Which is the big question and one I'm not sure the SNP have been able to answer definitively yet.

In the spirit of this thread, this needs to be posted:

You just made an enemy for life.

 

[chamber-music]

Its ironic the Tories are not popular in Scotland as they where the political party against the union back the early 18th century.

Hmmm...I have to say during the times of William Wallace and Rob Roy when Britain was persecuting the Scots and doing heinous things to the people absolute freedom would have been a good thing. But in this modern age of stalling economies I don't think severing ties with England would be a good thing. Of course I could be wrong and maybe a self sustaining country with its own economy away from Britain and the EU might be good for the people.

Scotland is British.

Britain is England, Scotland and Wales. Its the name of the entire island and its population which goes back thousands of years to the Roman invasion of Britain when they called the island Britannia. None of the nations (England, Scotland or Wales) existed. The native britains where tribal.

England became a state in AD 927.

Scotland became a state in AD 843.

Wales became a state in AD 1057.

Historically it wasn't as cut and dry as England just going after Scotland.

There was centuries peace treaties and wars between the two nations which would get broken by both sides.

One of the reasons is Auld Alliance of 1295 between France and Scotland. The treaty between the two meant that if England had a problem with either nation then both nations would attack England.

English rulers would sign peace treaties with Scotland end up get into a scrap with long term rivals France and then the Scots would break the treaty and invade England even though England had no problem with Scotland. This lead to more distrust between England and Scotland because they didn't keep their word and worked in favour of the French as the nations of Britain would continue infighting. The old divide and conquer scheme.

Its no surprise that after the nations of Britain unified the British empire took off because they could focus their forces abroad rather than worrying about their neighbours.

European history has for centuries been conquer or be conquered. Unless your powerful enough to stand on your own or connected by royal marriage to another more powerful nation you were done for.

Like I said, I'm American and we aren't taught extensively about European or Asian history. Any knowledge we gain is either through the movies or from self research in a local library, which considering what a mush melon culture we have doesn't occur very often. The level of dumbed down people is growing in the United states fed by vacuous people like the Kardashians and the Jersey Shoe crew.

Yeah I'm pretty sure alot of peoples understanding of Scottish history beginnd ends with Braveheart which is one of the most historically inaccurate hollywood movies ever.

Hollywoods tends to make global movies into movies about American ideals.

As I can remember reading the Scots were not thrilled about the idea of union in the first place back in the early 18th century. They even rioted in some places. What would Scotland gain by leaving the UK?

Scotland was bankrupt after the Darien Disaster. The failed attempt at building a South American Scottish colony to rival Englands and control trade routes left Scotland the equivalent of modern day Greece.

There had been attempts and disscussions by people in both Scotland and England about a union of the two nations for over a hundred years when there was the union of the crowns before it actually happened in 1707.

The Darien company was backed by about a quarter of the money circulating in Scotland, its failure left the nobles and landowners – who had suffered a run of bad harvests – almost completely ruined.

After the Union within a century Scotland transformation into a modern nation oriented toward business. Within a generation, Scotland had one of the most advanced commercial cultures in the world. It kicked off the Scottish enlightenment. Glasgow became the second city of the British Empire and became very wealthy. Both sides did very well out of the union for about 200 years.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Yeah I'm pretty sure alot of peoples understanding of Scottish history beginnd ends with Braveheart which is one of the most historically inaccurate hollywood movies ever.

Hollywoods tends to make global movies into movies about American ideals.

So basically you're telling us that William Wallace wasn't born in Atlanta, Georgia, and wasn't crucified to death by effeminate gay secular Jewish wiccan Hispanic feminists.

 

[The Infernal]

So basically you're telling us that William Wallace wasn't born in Atlanta, Georgia, and wasn't crucified to death by effeminate gay secular Jewish wiccan Hispanic feminists.

That director's cut of Braveheart really must add a lot.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

So basically you're telling us that William Wallace wasn't born in Atlanta, Georgia, and wasn't crucified to death by effeminate gay secular Jewish wiccan Hispanic feminists.

Still more accurate than Macbeth.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Still more accurate than Macbeth.

Come on man, say "The Scottish Play," or you'll bring the roof down on all of us!

 

[The Infernal]

Come on man, say "The Scottish Play," or you'll bring the roof down on all of us!

[YT]SpsOkvZ4XMM[/YT]

"Oh, so you want be mentioning either".

"No.... well not very often".

 

[chamber-music]

British Isles Unification 800 A.D. - 1922 A.D.

Good evolution timeline