Should comics tone it down?

[TheCorpulent1]

Haha, what is that from?

 

[SouLeSS]

I don't know, but I ****ing love it.

 

[Varient]

That was during the time when Malice took over Susan Richards.

reed was working to distract the enity so they could purge it from Sue.

Nice Inter-family fight too.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh wow, that was in-continuity? I assumed it ws a What If.

 

[PhotoJones]

That's a John Byrne FF page, so I'm assuming it's canon.

 

[masteryoda]

Yeah, but that wasn't really Sue so it's okay to hit her.

 

[Varient]

Oh wow, that was in-continuity? I assumed it ws a What If.

and the page after the slap.

 

[Varient]

of course reading it NOW,.. I realize that my assumption @ the time that this was the X-Men's foe was incorrect.

 

[Dread]

Even funnier is Reed used to talk to Sue in that manner all the time during the 60's, when Lee & Kirby were writing him. And maybe even afterwards. No slapping, but plenty of, "Cease your female prattle, woman, we have the cosmos to defend!" or stuff like that.

Granted, while one could argue Mr. Fantastic is at times a horrid sexist, that STILL doesn't let Millar off the hook for twisting him into a Nazi Doctor during CW.

 

[Varient]

Even funnier is Reed used to talk to Sue in that manner all the time during the 60's, when Lee & Kirby were writing him. And maybe even afterwards. No slapping, but plenty of, "Cease your female prattle, woman, we have the cosmos to defend!" or stuff like that.

Granted, while one could argue Mr. Fantastic is at times a horrid sexist, that STILL doesn't let Millar off the hook for twisting him into a Nazi Doctor during CW.

I thought that was explained in their own title?

 

[KAD]

Also, dont forget that Marvel has never had a "great" arc or story. Really, only Batman stories (TDKR, Long Halloween, Year One) achieve that, and DC published into popularity all the other great ones like the Alan Moore books and Vertigo titles. Marvel has a better roster of heroes, DC has better celebrated stories. I personally think all superheroes should quit.

The Squadron Supreme 12 issue is pretty mindblowing IMO

Secret wars the original was decent

Kree Skrull war rocked

Wolverine the first LS was awesome beyond words

Supreme awesome

The Infinity Gauntlet

The Scorpio Contract

The Korvac saga

The Age of Apocolypse

Future Imperfect

StarLord

Annihilation

The Last Hunt

Someplace Strange One of My personal favorites

Frank Millars run on Daredevil

Bill Senk-Can't spell his name for stuff-ich's DD

Elektra the limited by FM

Elektra the GN by FM

Fred Frickin Hembeck destroys the marvel universe

Now go scrape up some extra cash and run, don't walk to your nearest comic shop.

You've got some reading to do.

When your done come see me I'll suggest more

By the way I'm a big DC fan also.

I tend to see the writers as great storytellers not so much the companies.

Wake UP.

 

[KAD]

don't make me dig out my old issues of Epic on ya.

 

[Dread]

I thought that was explained in their own title?

It was, twice, once by JMS and once by McDuffie. The latter's was the best but it still seemed horribly OOC to me, and it always will. Thankfully, they are trying to move past it.

Hell, during CW, I am surprised no one accused Reed of having been replaced with The Brute, his harsh alternate reality counterpart. In the past he was identified by his extra nasty behavior.

 

[Bubonic]

I agree with just about everything you've said here.

Tom and Jerry style (with no consequence) violence is more dangerous to a child's development than seeing the actual consequences of violence, such a bruises, injuries, death.

I hadn't even considered that the judeo-christian culture is probably the major reason on why we're so imbalanced in our attitudes between sex and violence. Definately explains why sexual content and the nude body is more acceptable in Japanese comics and television.

As for your final point, I entirely agree. There are many comics which deal with the issue modern-day politics, but it always makes me cringe whenever a comic-book reader complains about a comic being too political... They say they feel manipulated, but they don't seem to notice when they're being manipulated into admiring and modelling their morals on whatever the morals of the hero are, which include simplistic notions of evil/good (good is us, and evil is everything else) and following the letter of the law.

I was impressed to hear Marvel was even going near the topic of modern-day political supression of the individual's rights in Civil War... I always just figured the two big comic-teams to be apolitical in their stance.

It's just nice to see comics finally growing up along with the fans.
I'd really hate to see things revert to the early days of the comics code.

 

[Mladen]

UltimateJustin is correct, but I'm assuming he meant 'great' as in reknown or successful (especially outside the typical superhero comic-book circles).

Marvel (except for the exception of 'Marvels' itself), has never had stand-alone stories which were real hits outside the superhero community. Only superhero comic-book fans have even heard of the Dark Phoenix saga, or Miller's run on Daredevil, or Ennis' run on Punisher MAX. I've never even heard of Days of Future Past, and I read a lot of comics (albeit superheroes make up a minority of my current reading). Most are great stories, some are great only if you're already invested in the characters. Marvel seems to have their focus on ongoing series and individual comics rather than graphic novels or stand-alone stories, which makes it difficult for any one storyline to distinguish itself outside of comic-book fandom.

DC has DKR, Year One, Arkham Asylum, Watchmen, not to mention some of their Vertigo titles (V for Vendetta, Sandman, Preacher). Arkham Asylum (even though it was released cleverly to tie-in with the first Burton Batman film), was very well recieved OUTSIDE of the superhero comic-book community.

Like Ult. said though, Marvel has a higher quantity of memorable characters, once you get past Wonderwoman, Batman, and Superman, the average person would have a hard time remembering any other DC heroes.

 

[UltimateJustin]

UltimateJustin is correct, but I'm assuming he meant 'great' as in reknown or successful (especially outside the typical superhero comic-book circles).

Marvel (except for the exception of 'Marvels' itself), has never had stand-alone stories which were real hits outside the superhero community. Only superhero comic-book fans have even heard of the Dark Phoenix saga, or Miller's run on Daredevil, or Ennis' run on Punisher MAX. I've never even heard of Days of Future Past, and I read a lot of comics (albeit superheroes make up a minority of my current reading). Most are great stories, some are great only if you're already invested in the characters. Marvel seems to have their focus on ongoing series and individual comics rather than graphic novels or stand-alone stories, which makes it difficult for any one storyline to distinguish itself outside of comic-book fandom.

DC has DKR, Year One, Arkham Asylum, Watchmen, not to mention some of their Vertigo titles (V for Vendetta, Sandman, Preacher). Arkham Asylum (even though it was released cleverly to tie-in with the first Burton Batman film), was very well recieved OUTSIDE of the superhero comic-book community.

Like Ult. said though, Marvel has a higher quantity of memorable characters, once you get past Wonderwoman, Batman, and Superman, the average person would have a hard time remembering any other DC heroes.

Yeah, DD is my favorite superhero so obviously I've read Yellow and Miller's run and am a fan, but I dont think any of that as much as we celebrate it and Miller is known as one of the greats, has matched the acclaim of the DC works mentioned.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

umm i know outside fans who have heard of the phoenix saga.. and days of future past... and never heard of any of those DC "acclaimed" novels in which you speak...

 

[Mladen]

umm i know outside fans who have heard of the phoenix saga.. and days of future past... and never heard of any of those DC "acclaimed" novels in which you speak...

Of course. A lot of people saw the X-men movie and looked up X-men in wikipedia. They're otherwise not interested in reading comics.

Whenever people (pop culture magazines, readers digests, online lists) make a list of acclaimed graphic novels, very rarely does Marvel make the list. Thats the point in what he was saying.

It doesn't mean the stories aren't good, but if you ask somebody who likes comics but not particularly into the idea of superheroes, or somebody who has only recently gotten into comics, the graphic novels we already mentioned almost always make the list, while anything marvel rarely does.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

maybe in a literary top ten.. but many of the average joe's (who even before the movies) knew about the phoenix saga as well as spidey's symbiote saga with venom without ever picking up a comic... there also 2 incredible famous marvel stories that people have simply grown up learning

 

[yenaled]

Correct me if I am wrong...

I think what you are saying is that where Marvel's great stories tend to come from actual runs on their characters titles. DC's tend to come from stand-alone "graphic novels" runs and not originally released in the characters monthly title (even though none of the titles ever mentioned were actually released as graphic novels - but that's another arguement for another time).

Which where as it may bear some truth, is still a gross oversimplication of each companies output.

 

[Bubonic]

I don't know where you guys are finding non-comic fans that know any of this stuff.
I've a bad tendency of trying to talk comics with any ppl I know, in the beginning before its clear they don't give a crap.
Anyways, most ppl's knowledge on comic characters unfortunately starts and ends with their movie counterparts.
The only comic arch I've ever had mentioned by any of my friends and acquaintances is Maximum Carnage.

 

[Mladen]

I don't know where you guys are finding non-comic fans that know any of this stuff.
I've a bad tendency of trying to talk comics with any ppl I know, in the beginning before its clear they don't give a crap.
Anyways, most ppl's knowledge on comic characters unfortunately starts and ends with their movie counterparts.
The only comic arch I've ever had mentioned by any of my friends and acquaintances is Maximum Carnage.

same. my friends would only be aware of the ones based on films or cartoons (did the X-men cartoon from the 90s have a bunch of episodes about the whole Dark Phoenix saga or am I imagining it?).

One friend who studies film has heard of Watchmen, Sin City, 300, Dark Knight Returns, but I know he won't ever read them so I don't talk comics with him.

Of the handful of people I know who DO read comics, they read manga like Naruto or Full Metal Alchemist and have a blank expression when I mention I really liked Lone Wolf and Cub or Akira, so I just stay well away from the topic of comics with them altogether.

I don't know how anybody who doesn't read comics would know any of this stuff, unless if they're wiki-ing it to impress you. Its not like any of these big stories were really advertised outside of comics.

 

[Bubonic]

It really is obscure knowledge, centered around long time comic fans.
The average person has a snooty attitude towards the whole comic thing actually... Really not something to bring up when sharing interest with a girl you just met... For the most part.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That's because the perception that comics are kids' stuff still exists. Which is fair enough, really, at least with superhero comics. The characters still dress in goofy, colorful costumes, most of their tie-ins in other media are directed towards kids (cartoons, toys, all the PG-13 movies), and they're still perceived to focus on escapism, even though comics have been providing commentary on real-world events for decades now. Even those few random people who do get into comics tend to just stick to the well known indie or "adult" titles like Vertigo because superheroes are perceived as immature flights of fancy.

That last set is the one that really annoys me. You have no idea how annoying it is to try to insert some superhero stuff into a conversation with someone you know would like it because they're into anime, Heroes, fantasy books, etc., only to have them change the subject to Sandman for the fifty millionth time. Yes, everyone and their mother has read Sandman; it's great; move on.

 

[yenaled]

Even those few random people who do get into comics tend to just stick to the well known indie or "adult" titles like Vertigo because superheroes are perceived as immature flights of fancy.

That last set is the one that really annoys me. You have no idea how annoying it is to try to insert some superhero stuff into a conversation with someone you know would like it because they're into anime, Heroes, fantasy books, etc., only to have them change the subject to Sandman for the fifty millionth time. Yes, everyone and their mother has read Sandman; it's great; move on.

Haha God yes. That basically describes most people I know who read comics (that and people who just read Batman). You even try to show them some "adult" Vertigo Superhero stuff - say Animal Man or Alan Moore's Swamp Thing - and they will pass up on it. It's got to be an image thing "superheroes are for kids I won't read that" mindset.