Siegel & Shuster vs WB: Superman and Infinite Crisis - Part 1

[Ita-KalEl]

We'll see

 

[merced]

Why all this talk about the lawsuits when Snyder specifically said they will have nothing to do with the movie?

Snyder was referring very specifically to MOS when he made this comment. Note he said nothing about a sequel.

Why? Cause the loss of the rights to the heirs comes in 2013 and affects eerything Superman including a potential sequel.

MOS is being released prior to 2013 and is not affected by the loss of the rights.

 

[Showtime]

I think all this hyperbole regarding this lawsuit is kind of overzealous. Superman is a character staple like Mickey Mouse. WB will probably end up with Supes in the end and pay money to the family for a period of time or in one chunk. I think the main thing is WB/DC wants Toberoff away from the case and they will write a big fat check to the families and end this once and for all.

 

[merced]

I think all this hyperbole regarding this lawsuit is kind of overzealous. Superman is a character staple like Mickey Mouse. WB will probably end up with Supes in the end and pay money to the family for a period of time or in one chunk. I think the main thing is WB/DC wants Toberoff away from the case and they will write a big fat check to the families and end this once and for all.

Problem is that Toberoff will own about 23% of Superman in 2013 w/the Siegels owning 27% and presumably the Shuster heirs 50%.

Toberoff is a player and can block any deal, however unlikely that is, that the heirs make wit WB/DC.

It's a hugely complex situation.

 

[Showtime]

Which is what WB/DC is exposing, because it is a conflict of interest. Right?

...and to be clear, they aren't going to own ALL of Superman related material. Anything WB/DC has created is theirs. They never get that
part of it.

 

[merced]

Which is what WB/DC is exposing, because it is a conflict of interest. Right?

...and to be clear, they aren't going to own ALL of Superman related material. Anything WB/DC has created is theirs. They never get that
part of it.

I'm not a fan of Toberoff and asking for a fee of 47% of what the heirs get in terms of rights seems unethical to me.

But the heirs agreed to this and Toberoff presumably will own about 25% of Superman going forward - the non-WB/DC created part of Superman. That's a huge complication given the bad blood between WB/DC and Toberoff.

 

[GreenKToo]

I really don't see how toberoff can represent them when he stands to profit off a postive outcome for them. That ain't right.

 

[Showtime]

I'm not a fan of Toberoff and asking for a fee of 47% of what the heirs get in terms of rights seems unethical to me.

But the heirs agreed to this and Toberoff presumably will own about 25% of Superman going forward - the non-WB/DC created part of Superman. That's a huge complication given the bad blood between WB/DC and Toberoff.

It's a bad situation for both parties. Neither of them can do everything they want to with the character. Are the Siegels, Shusters, and Toberoff going to create a movie involving a Superman that doesn't fly? Sweet. I will line up to see that.

 

[manofsteel4life]

It's a bad situation for both parties. Neither of them can do everything they want to with the character. Are the Siegels, Shusters, and Toberoff going to create a movie involving a Superman that doesn't fly? Sweet. I will line up to see that.

lol

 

[Superman_20]

It's a bad situation for both parties. Neither of them can do everything they want to with the character. Are the Siegels, Shusters, and Toberoff going to create a movie involving a Superman that doesn't fly? Sweet. I will line up to see that.

Well apparently they wouldn't have a lot of the Superman traits. So I guess it would be a Superman movie who comes from a lab and has no powers but has a blue suit and falls in love with some other reporter from the Boston Globe I guess.

 

[Dr.]

Well apparently they wouldn't have a lot of the Superman traits. So I guess it would be a Superman movie who comes from a lab and has no powers but has a blue suit and falls in love with some other reporter from the Boston Globe I guess.

Every so often, a fan will express interest in or curiosity about a Superman period movie (1940s or thereabouts). Perhaps it could be done in the manner of Sky Captain.

Well, with full ownership of Action #1, a movie like that could be attempted. Period franchises have had success (Indiana Jones, The Mummy). And who knows? Maybe the 1940s is Supes' natural environment.

 

[Showtime]

Which is why some kind of understanding has to be reached and will.

 

[KalMart]

Which is why some kind of understanding has to be reached and will.

Or WB/DC will have to prepare for moving ahead with a character called The Man Of Steel that doesn't use the story aspects from Seigel & Shuster.....which they've pretty much already started preparing for.

 

[merced]

Or WB/DC will have to prepare for moving ahead with a character called The Man Of Steel that doesn't use the story aspects from Seigel & Shuster.....which they've pretty much already started preparing for.

And the heirs can move ahead with their rights and incorporate new elements to create an equally unique character to that which DC seems to be in the process of doing.

Sounds like this is what Toberoff wants - to create/control his own Superman film independent of WB.

 

[KalMart]

And the heirs can move ahead with their rights and incorporate new elements to create an equally unique character to that which DC seems to be in the process of doing.

Sounds like this is what Toberoff wants - to create/control his own Superman film independent of WB.

One that runs really fast, doesn't fly, etc. Wasn't there show like that which ended recently?

Where's he going to get the $$$ backing?

 

[KRIM]

They're both royally screwed if they have to split the character. Neither side has an overwhelming advantage, as they each own very crucial elements of the lore.

It's the only reason why I'm not even flinching at any of these lawsuit reports. It would be suicide for them to go through without an agreement.

 

[KalMart]

They're both royally screwed if they have to split the character. Neither side has an overwhelming advantage, as they each own very crucial elements of the lore.

It's the only reason why I'm not even flinching at any of these lawsuit reports. It would be suicide for them to go through without an agreement.

WB/DC has the advantage of being a comic and publishing company, being able to actually develop and distribute a new character, and having plenty of other things to keep them afloat financially. They can weather it. The heirs have (as far as we know) no experience in entertainment or production, could only manage to 'pay' their lawyer in shares/ownership interest in a settlement which may or may not happen....and their bills are mounting.

 

[KRIM]

WB has the advantage of being a comic and publishing company...and having plenty of other things to keep them afloat financially. They can weather it. The heirs could only manage to 'pay' their lawyer in shares of a settlement which may or may not happen.

Out of the two sides, sure. But again, if deals fall through, WB will not have a very strong Superman brand for the very fact that many of its most recognizable elements are now forbidden. It's certainly possible to re-invent the character from the ground up, but throwing away much of 70 years in established history is a risky endeavor.

 

[KalMart]

Out of the two sides, sure. But again, if deals fall through, WB will not have a very strong Superman brand for the very fact that many of its most recognizable elements are now forbidden. It's certainly possible to re-invent the character from the ground up, but throwing away much of 70 years in established history is a risky endeavor.

I think they'd be able to get by better on their 'not very strong' than the heirs/Toberoff would on their 'not very anything'. Plus, they still have Batman, Wonder Woman, and the rest of their catalogue (not to mention books, movies, records, etc.)....whereas the heirs have...what...a cat...and a mortgage...and outstanding medical bills....?

Advantage: WB

 

[Evil Twin]

WB has the S-shield trademark, the trademark to the titles Superman and Action Comics, Kryptonite, Luthor, Brainiac, and quite likely Supergirl to play with. Heck, they might be able to get around Clark Kent, Lois, etc. simply through some Flashpoint shenanigans and say Superman has an unknown but alien past.

The Siegels have a legitimate claim, but a ton of what makes Superman "Superman" is indisputably DC's.

 

[KalMart]

WB has the S-shield trademark, the trademark to the titles Superman and Action Comics, Kryptonite, Luthor, Brainiac, and quite likely Supergirl to play with. Heck, they might be able to get around Clark Kent, Lois, etc. simply through some Flashpoint shenanigans and say Superman has an unknown but alien past.

The Siegels have a legitimate claim, but a ton of what makes Superman "Superman" is indisputably DC's.

Including the ability to actually produce and distribute comics/movies/TV/Animation.

Basically, the heirs need WB/DC more than WB/DC need the heirs when it really comes down to it. And that's what it might come down to...because WB can wait it out longer since they're only losing parts of one of their many properties...whereas the heirs, who probably don't have much to begin with, are losing everything they've put into this whole legal issue, which may be all they have....half of which will belong to their lawyer.

This has always been a war of attrition....so sometimes it comes down to who has more to fall back on. Chances are that WB/DC will still be able to eke out a modest existence even without Superman.

 

[Kurosawa]

WB has the S-shield trademark, the trademark to the titles Superman and Action Comics, Kryptonite, Luthor, Brainiac, and quite likely Supergirl to play with. Heck, they might be able to get around Clark Kent, Lois, etc. simply through some Flashpoint shenanigans and say Superman has an unknown but alien past.

The Siegels have a legitimate claim, but a ton of what makes Superman "Superman" is indisputably DC's.

The heirs would have a Superman who could not fly, had no Lex or Jimmy, no Kryptonite, no Supergirl, FOS, Krypto, Legion of Super-Heroes, no Superboy, Myxy, Parasite, Metallo, etc. DC would have a Superman without the blue costume with the red trunks and yellow belt, invulnerability, and super-speed, maybe no love interest named "Lois", and maybe no Clark Kent. DC has more but what they are losing to the heirs is extremely bad.

Including the ability to actually produce and distribute comics/movies/TV/Animation.

Basically, the heirs need WB/DC more than WB/DC need the heirs when it really comes down to it. And that's what it might come down to...because WB can wait it out longer since they're only losing parts of one of their many properties...whereas the heirs, who probably don't have much to begin with, are losing everything they've put into this whole legal issue, which may be all they have....half of which will belong to their lawyer.

This has always been a war of attrition....so sometimes it comes down to who has more to fall back on. Chances are that WB/DC will still be able to eke out a modest existence even without Superman.

They started moving on without Superman 25 years ago. It's why they made him their #2 behind Batman and if they hadn't tried to rip off Iron Man with Green Lantern, he'd be #3 to GL.

 

[Ita-KalEl]

LOL really? Now GL is #125 behind Phantom Stranger.
Nevertheless you are overreacting. I read exactly the same things about Batman after Batman&Robin when even the comics didn't sell well.

 

[Dr.]

Or WB/DC will have to prepare for moving ahead with a character called The Man Of Steel that doesn't use the story aspects from Seigel & Shuster.....which they've pretty much already started preparing for.

If making a post-MOS movie was the only goal, I think S&S have the most viable, ready-to-go property. As I said, I think it would be possible to make a period film loosely based on Action #1. And details like “leaping 1/8th of a mile” (instead of flying) could be accommodated (or disguised) as “historically” authentic. Sell it on the basis of quaint nostalgia or “old fashioned values.”

That said… such a movie (or, at best, a trilogy) would likely be a one-shot deal (analogous to the contractual loophole that allowed Never Say Never Again to get made). I seriously doubt that S&S could build a “Superman empire” that could rival what DC/WB have done over 70 years. As you say, they’re just guys with a copyright – not filmmakers, TV producers, writers or publishers. Beyond a "blast from the past" type one-off movie, I don't think a non-flying Superman has much value.

 

[chamber-music]

The heirs would have a Superman who could not fly, had no Lex or Jimmy, no Kryptonite, no Supergirl, FOS, Krypto, Legion of Super-Heroes, no Superboy, Myxy, Parasite, Metallo, etc. DC would have a Superman without the blue costume with the red trunks and yellow belt, invulnerability, and super-speed, maybe no love interest named "Lois", and maybe no Clark Kent. DC has more but what they are losing to the heirs is extremely bad.

DC would probably go back to the Electric Blue Superman if they have to get round the Sigel & Shuster stuff