So tell me, what was wrong with B89's Joker?

[BingoJesus]

Tim Burtons first was my introduction to Batman, so I have nothing to compare that films Joker to. I've gathered that most long time fans (some of my friends included) weren't happy with that films/Jack Nicholson's take on the character. Why not?

And is there anyone else that's worried about the dialogue in the teaser sounding like a Jack Nicholson's Joker impression?

 

[Carnotaur3]

Tim Burtons first was my introduction to Batman, so I have nothing to compare that films Joker to. I've gathered that most long time fans (some of my friends included) weren't happy with that films/Jack Nicholson's take on the character. Why not?

And is there anyone else that's worried about the dialogue in the teaser sounding like a Jack Nicholson's Joker impression?

It wasn't a serious performance. And Heath's Joker sounds nothing like Jack's. I don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion.

 

[Herman Laufig]

This movie is too old for them, they weren't born yet.

 

[Penismightier]

Absolutely nothing was wrong with The Joker in the context of Burton's film. Longtime fans will say that he was too old or that him killing Bruce Wayne's parents wasn't in the comics, but it was a change they adapted well and it meshed well with the universe Burton had. Not to mention it was well written and not melodramatic. People will also say that it was too much like Jack Nicholson. Well, duh, Nicholson played him. And no one had that dark sense of humor that could come off as well as Nicholson did. Some will also say that he wasn't scary. To me, The Joker has never, ever been scary. Killing Joke Joker made me laugh, because I can see the dark comedy in the writing. That's something that makes the character interesting, that you can't hate him because it's dark comedy. Jack delivered a performance that was entertaining, darkly comedic, and infinitely quotable.

 

[Penismightier]

This movie is too old for them, they weren't born yet.

That has a lot to do with it. They were too young to see '89 when it came out, and just old enough to have seen the Schumacher movies, and unfortunately Burton's film gets lumped in with them. You have to see Batman '89 and realize that Schumacher's films are nothing like them. Accept it on it's own merits, and it is a serious Joker performance. Seriously darkly comedic.

 

[BingoJesus]

Killing Joke Joker made me laugh, because I can see the dark comedy in the writing.

I totally agree on the Killing Joke, I didn't find it particularly scary, but infinitely tragic.

 

[Baba Ghanoush]

I thought he gave a good performance.

If there was anything wrong him it was that he was too old and too chubby. But Keaton was looking old too. The final confrontation b/w the two of them was more geriatric than anything else.

They both gave good performances, but I wouldn't say they were great performances.

 

[Penismightier]

Killing Joke Joker made me laugh, because I can see the dark comedy in the writing.

I totally agree on the Killing Joke, I didn't find it particularly scary, but infinitely tragic.

Yes, when he walks out of the water and doesn't realize what he's turned into yet is incredibly tragic. What he does in the other scenes as The Joker, like the jokes after he shoots Barbara Gordon, are masterpieces of dark comedy.

 

[Carnotaur3]

That has a lot to do with it. They were too young to see '89 when it came out, and just old enough to have seen the Schumacher movies, and unfortunately Burton's film gets lumped in with them. You have to see Batman '89 and realize that Schumacher's films are nothing like them. Accept it on it's own merits, and it is a serious Joker performance. Seriously darkly comedic.

It's not serious, it's sorta "Tongue in Cheek" but that's how Burton's Batman was most of the time.

 

[Gianakin_]

1. Yes, Heat'hs "I'm a man of my word" reminded me of Jack's "And Bob, remeber, you're my number one man", mainly because of the audible breaths.

2.Burton's Bats was my introduction to the Bat-world (hell, to the comic world, too), as well. But even since I was a kid I rmember liking the Penguin and Catwman more. The Joker didn't do much to me.

3.Putting the Nolan vs. Burton debate aside (which doesn't exist in principle for me, but there are some comparison that I can't help making), I generally, honestly, have a major problem with actors who are cool as hell, but don't act, and instead they play their one coll-as-hell role.
Jack, Sean Connery, Pacino in his last movies, DeNiro lately, Harrison Ford since forever, so-called monsters who rest behind their own myth and stop trying. I love them all, but they're not volatile enough for me to truly love. That's why I respect Depp, Bale, Brando much much more (and Pacino and DeNiro, until recently).
Nothing against Burton or Jack, but he did play himself, only a bit loonier and Joker in B89 got consumed by Jack, and not the other way around. If I let that pass, then his performance was brilliant. But I can't, so there you hve my 0.2 euros on this.

 

[BingoJesus]

I was just turning 12 when the Burtons movie came out, so was still fairly young when Forever came out, but man did I hate it. I've still not watched more than 15/20 minutes of Batman & Robin, although I did pick up the "legacy" box set for super cheap with the intention of watching them all at some point.

 

[Darknightnomis]

Nothing was wrong with it.

For us really really older Batman fans that movie wiped out much of the stench of "camp" that have been floating around about Batman (to the mainstream not in the comics) from his small screen TV show in the 60s.

And not to sound like an old fuddy duddy, but if the Tim Burton movie is your introduction to Batman then I employ you to go some of the earlier comics first to get a more well rounded view of Batman.

These movies are just interpertation of the character and not a full aspect of him.

Start off with the Detective stuff from (the late great) Bob Kane in the late '30s and then the Denny O Neil/ Neal Adams 70s stuff the Steve Engelhart/ (the late great)Marshall Rogers late 70s and of cousre ALL of Frank Miller's '80s stuff (not to mention ALan Moore's Killing Joke).

These will give you a better perspective on what the movies are trying to accomplish.

 

[Carnotaur3]

1. Yes, Heat'hs "I'm a man of my word" reminded me of Jack's "And Bob, remeber, you're my number one man", mainly because of the audible breaths.

2.Burton's Bats was my introduction to the Bat-world (hell, to the comic world, too), as well. But even since I was a kid I rmember liking the Penguin and Catwman more. The Joker didn't do much to me.

3.Putting the Nolan vs. Burton debate aside (which doesn't exist in principle for me, but there are some comparison that I can't help making), I generally, honestly, have a major problem with actors who are cool as hell, but don't act, and instead they play their one coll-as-hell role.
Jack, Sean Connery, Pacino in his last movies, DeNiro lately, Harrison Ford since forever, so-called monsters who rest behind their own myth and stop trying. I love them all, but they're not volatile enough for me to truly love. That's why I respect Depp, Bale, Brando much much more (and Pacino and DeNiro, until recently).
Nothing against Burton or Jack, but he did play himself, only a bit loonier and Joker in B89 got consumed by Jack, and not the other way around. If I let that pass, then his performance was brilliant. But I can't, so there you hve my 0.2 euros on this.

I agree, and that's not to say Jack Nicholson isn't a great actor either.

 

[Victarion]

Jack's a great actor, no questions asked. As Gianakin has said, Time Burton's Batman was my introduction into the Bat-World...yet I never really detected any menace from Jack's Joker. He seemed mildly tame. Yeah, he gassed an entire street, but it didn't really affect me. He wasn't wild enough, nihilistic enough for my tastes.

-Lieutenant Morzan

 

[Penismightier]

1. Yes, Heat'hs "I'm a man of my word" reminded me of Jack's "And Bob, remeber, you're my number one man", mainly because of the audible breaths.

2.Burton's Bats was my introduction to the Bat-world (hell, to the comic world, too), as well. But even since I was a kid I rmember liking the Penguin and Catwman more. The Joker didn't do much to me.

3.Putting the Nolan vs. Burton debate aside (which doesn't exist in principle for me, but there are some comparison that I can't help making), I generally, honestly, have a major problem with actors who are cool as hell, but don't act, and instead they play their one coll-as-hell role.
Jack, Sean Connery, Pacino in his last movies, DeNiro lately, Harrison Ford since forever, so-called monsters who rest behind their own myth and stop trying. I love them all, but they're not volatile enough for me to truly love. That's why I respect Depp, Bale, Brando much much more (and Pacino and DeNiro, until recently).
Nothing against Burton or Jack, but he did play himself, only a bit loonier and Joker in B89 got consumed by Jack, and not the other way around. If I let that pass, then his performance was brilliant. But I can't, so there you hve my 0.2 euros on this.

That sort of thing only manifests itself if the actor is horribly miscast. Jack loves The Joker. Watch the SE DVD. The guy IS The Joker, just The Joker is a few notches crazier and murderous. Your point would be more valid if someone who is totally unlike The Joker was cast. Like, Val Kilmer disappears into his roles, but he wouldn't have made a better Joker than Jack.

 

[BingoJesus]

Thinking back, I also preferred Catwoman and Penguin as more terrifying villains, so I can see people's points about Joker not being evil enough.

 

[Penismightier]

Thinking back, I also preferred Catwoman and Penguin as more terrifying villains, so I can see people's points about Joker not being evil enough.

That's the thing though, Joker is such a compelling villain in any medium because he's not exactly terrifying. He's just not that kind of villain. He's not Hannibal Lecter in clown makeup. You identify with him because you can actually see the comedy in his crimes. The best writers have made his crimes hilariously dark. Penguin and Catwoman, especially in Batman Returns, were totally different villains than The Joker.

 

[Gianakin_]

That sort of thing only manifests itself if the actor is horribly miscast. Jack loves The Joker. Watch the SE DVD. The guy IS The Joker, just The Joker is a few notches crazier and murderous. Your point would be more valid if someone who is totally unlike The Joker was cast. Like, Val Kilmer disappears into his roles, but he wouldn't have made a better Joker than Jack.

See, I disagree with everything you said. And forgive me, but I'm willing to bet Jack was pretending in the SE interview. Many actors do. And whether a guy is unlike the Joker or not is a matter of opinon, so I do believe my point is valid enough.

 

[Penismightier]

Nothing was wrong with it.

For us really really older Batman fans that movie wiped out much of the stench of "camp" that have been floating around about Batman (to the mainstream not in the comics) from his small screen TV show in the 60s.

And not to sound like an old fuddy duddy, but if the Tim Burton movie is your introduction to Batman then I employ you to go some of the earlier comics first to get a more well rounded view of Batman.

These movies are just interpertation of the character and not a full aspect of him.

Start off with the Detective stuff from Bob Kane in the late '30s and then the Denny O Neil/ Neal Adams 70s stuff the Steve Engelhart/ MArshall Rogers late 70s and of cousre ALL of Frank Miller's '80s stuff (not to mention ALan Moore's Killing Joke).

These will give you a better perspective on what tthe movies are doing.

Agreed. Reading up on the complete history of Batman will give you a lot more insight into what they were trying to do with Burton's movie. It also helps you "get" the character in ways that you wouldn't if you just stuck to the movies and the last 20 years of the comics.

 

[Cain]

That has a lot to do with it. They were too young to see '89 when it came out, and just old enough to have seen the Schumacher movies, and unfortunately Burton's film gets lumped in with them. You have to see Batman '89 and realize that Schumacher's films are nothing like them. Accept it on it's own merits, and it is a serious Joker performance. Seriously darkly comedic.

I agree with this and due to their age a lot of them are only familiar with the post '88 Joker who has become inherently darker as the years go on. They don't know that the '89 Joker which is technically the '88 Joker lol was 50 years of different Joker interpretations being amalgamed for the screen. I posted this in the miscellenous section but I feel it's appropriate for this thread

Now I've seen the funniest criticism all over the net lately about "Jack was Jack in BATMAN", WTF does that mean? this wasn't McMurphy or Jake Gittes I was seeing here it was The Joker. People think that the sadistic Joker we see in The Killing Joke and Arkham Asylum & beyond has always been a permanent fixture. They don't realize The Joker has worn about as many faces as Batman himself has throughout his history.

Nicholson embodied the theatrical & homicidal guy from very early appearances & the 70's mixed with the prankster from the 50's, 60's with his performances. There were even elements of early 80's sociopathical Joker in his portrayal so I don't quite get the whole "Jack wasn't The Joker" argument. When I see people bring that up it just makes me question how familiar they are with The Joker in the first place.

Well damn near 20 years have passed since that performance and the character has evolved yet again. As I mentioned earlier he is now a lot more sadistic and I predict Ledger will definitely nail that to a T. This modern Joker is something that I've always wanted to see on film so I'm happy even though I don't dig his look, the personality has been spot on from what I've read. However for people to discredit Nicholson's performance because he worked in bringing a different vision to life and claim that it wasn't The Joker is just nuts. This performance definitely gets a Yay from me and is definitely worthy of it's spot in the AFI top 50 movie villains of all time list.

 

[DARKxGOTHAMITE]

BATMAN was my first movie i had ever seen, or recall seeing. It WAS my ushering into the Bat-Fan i am now i have a lot of sentimental value and love for that movie haha come on i think some of us here know every single line to that movie as i do.

It was what drew me into the world of Batman, still one of my if not my favorite movie of all time.

And untill i see Heaths performance, in my mind Jack IS Joker...but maybe that was the problem with his performance we could tell its Jack...i mean not the obvious points but, i mean i didnt see Joker i saw Jack Nicholson...one of the points i agreed with Jett on was when he wrote that he wants a actor that just gets into the role and you dont see that actor you see THE JOKER.

Hopefully Heath does that exact thing.

I mean look at MK, he was my fav Batman...till Bale came along. I mean lets face it...Bale is THE best Batman to date. MK and JN where the best at their time, now its its Bale and Ledgers time.

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

You know, Jack was Joker in Burton's vision and he has played many other roles that rank him as a great actor.

Ledger will be Joker in Nolan's vision. You can't still accept that ? Well, they've been filming for a while now...

I read somewhere that Sean Connery should come back as Bond, that's just the same stupid whining.

Oh yeah, most of you might remember me, I was here before with a different nickname. I came back, never thought this would happen...

 

[Penismightier]

See, I disagree with everything you said. And forgive me, but I'm willing to bet Jack was pretending in the SE interview. Many actors do. And whether a guy is unlike the Joker or not is a matter of opinon, so I do believe my point is valid enough.

Why would he pretend in the interview? If he really is being Jack in every role, which I agree with, you can see parts of The Joker in a lot of his earlier roles. And of course whether or not he's at all like The Joker is an opinion, but with everything the guy has done I think you can honestly say that he and The Joker of the comics share some similarities. Also, he wore purple to the interview and he got that smile on his face when talking about The Joker. And the joy in his face when he was talking about creeping out little kids!

 

[Gianakin_]

Now I've seen the funniest criticism all over the net lately about "Jack was Jack in BATMAN", WTF does that mean? this wasn't McMurphy or Jake Gittes I was seeing here it was The Joker. People think that the sadistic Joker we see in The Killing Joke and Arkham Asylum & beyond has always been a permanent fixture. They don't realize The Joker has worn about as many faces as Batman himself has throughout his history.

Nicholson embodied the theatrical & homicidal guy from very early appearances & the 70's mixed with the prankster from the 50's, 60's with his performances. There were even elements of early 80's sociopathical Joker in his portrayal so I don't quite get the whole "Jack wasn't The Joker" argument. When I see people bring that up it just makes me question how familiar they are with The Joker in the first place.

Well damn near 20 years have passed since that performance and the character has evolved yet again. As I mentioned earlier he is now a lot more sadistic and I predict Ledger will definitely nail that to a T. This modern Joker is something that I've always wanted to see on film so I'm happy even though I don't dig his look, the personality has been spot on from what I've read. However for people to discredit Nicholson's performance because he worked in bringing a different vision to life and claim that it wasn't The Joker is just nuts. This performance definitely gets a Yay from me and is definitely worthy of it's spot in the AFI top 50 movie villains of all time list.

Very well written post. Also, a matter of opinion. I saw Jack Nicholson, Daryl Van Horne, Jack Torrance, Frank Chambers. I'ms sorry, but I did. And take it away from a matter of faithfulness to the source material. I won't go there. What I'm saying is he wasn't really lost in the role enough for me to like him.

 

[Gianakin_]

Why would he pretend in the interview? If he really is being Jack in every role, which I agree with, you can see parts of The Joker in a lot of his earlier roles. And of course whether or not he's at all like The Joker is an opinion, but with everything the guy has done I think you can honestly say that he and The Joker of the comics share some similarities. Also, he wore purple to the interview and he got that smile on his face when talking about The Joker. And the joy in his face when he was talking about creeping out little kids!

The last few sentences mean nothing to me, sorry. I judge from what I saw in the movie. What he professes, says or does for the role outside of the finished product is not a factor for me. Why he'd pretend? Don't know, I'm really only taking a guess here.