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Spider-Man movie series in retrospect

Back to my Harry osborn death people were talking about and them saying he died a hero in the comics, well actually it wasn't his intention...

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Right, here it clearly shows that harry's heroic actions were not based on the fact he knew he was going to die doing a worthy cause, those actions were previous to the events that lead to his death. He was ultimately killed by his own hand or at least the legacy of the goblin due to the formulae.

It had nothing to do with why he saved them all.

His death in spidey 3 was an empty self sacrifice, which led to nothign since spidey was well within his power to get the webbing off him and avoid that blow, the webbing was not even on him tightly, he could have avoided the situation altogether. To make matters worse, he left him there and neigher him or MJ made any true attempt to save his life regardless of what happened.


ULtimately, i just wished to illustrate that harry's death in the comics had nothing to do with wanting to go out as a hero or making a sacrifice on other people's behalves. It was a sad a tragic poisoning that got him once he felt he was finally able to rid himself of the curse of the goblin it came back for a final bite and that's what made it tragic.

It was in no shape or form replicated in spidey 3 and this is why i don't believe my arguments are nitpicking.
I loved Harry's death in the comic's, but I had no problem at all with Harry's death in Spidey3. I really loved it, It was so well done and sad. :up:
 
Mr. Jide I read your posts and let's just say we are clearly never going to reach an understanding on this discussion.

I've merely been arguing in this thread (for the most part) that these are good movies and not mediocre happy meals like you call them (and they could have easily been looking at almost every other superhero movie ever made). I"ve been trying to point out their merits and why they are so beloved by non fan-obsessed audiences. Even if they were bad adaptations (which I think they're not), they are still good movies. Just as The Shining and A Clockwork Orange are great movies but AWFUL adaptations. I like Coppola's "Bram Stoker's Dracula," even though thematically it pisses all over what Stoker really wrote. Hell, I think movies like Jaws and LA Confidential by departing heavily from their source material proved to be amazing movies over average books.

But I see as you claim these movies failed at the first few lines "It's all about a girl, that girl..." yadda yadda, that from that moment on you were stuck to hate these movies. I personally think they are good adaptations of such a wide inconsistant, complex, contradictory and mountains/valleys source material. You do not. We must agree to disagree.

But a word of friendly advice, do not dwell on what could have been too much. In your latest posts you say "if Gwen was in the first one" or if 'Ock was like that" and the same lines of fanboys saying "SM3 would've been perfect without Venom or with this here and that scene there"

...

It didn't happen that way. What's done is done and these movies are what they are. Love them, hate them, ignore them or enjoy them faults and all (like myself)...your choice (my guess is the middle two apply to yourself)...but don't get too caught up years after the fact about what could have been done, because it is all moot now and pointless to scrutinize.

With that said, you say you wanted to see the original Koepp draft of Spider-Man? Well, here you go mate:

http://www.script-o-rama.com/table4.shtml

Just download it in Word under Spider-Man: Unspecified Draft. My thoughts upon it after quickly rescanning it is there are some things in this I like and wish they had remained in the original movie: Examples

-Spidey's wise-cracking funny smartass self. The first scene is Peter getting his head shoved into the concrete and dirt by Flash Thompson but still cracking wise at the punk. Good stuff. Also during every action scene (save for the climax which is dramtically different in this draft) he has a number of good one-liners, particularly when he first saves MJ (which is in the snow, not rain and happens before the Thanksgiving parade in this).
-I also think Peter's proclomation of love to MJ which happens after the Thanksgiving dinner meltdown is also much more mature and better written than what is in the movie.
-Also, if you are pissed Peter didn't care about Aunt May's situation enough, it explains he moves out so May can rent his room out. But...

But overall I didn't care for the draft. If you thought Aunt May didn't have enough screentime before she is in about three scenes in this and we do not see her reaction to Uncle Ben's death, nor consuling Peter on graduation day (there was no graduatio nscene). She isn't even at the Thanksgiving Dinner. Other problems are while MJ is much closer to her comic book counterpart in presentation, she comes off as a selfish *****, with no likeability whatsoever. the pacing is flawed and you don't really see why Peter makes the defcisions he does. While Harry and Peter's relationship begins closer to the comics, Koepp writes Harry as the biggest *****e bag in the world abandoning MJ to die and at the climax leaving Peter to die while trying to save his own skin again.

And worst of all Osborn has no depth and is just a mostache twirler and Doc Ock, who is in the movie does ntohing but act as deux ex machiena to cause Norman to become Gobby and later save Spidey from Gobby. While closer to his comic book counterpart, he doesn't do anythbing but yell a lot about "MY WORK," and seeth. The end is the worst where Gobby goes to prison instead and Doc Ock gets away screaming "SPIDER-MAN!!!!!!!" and then Harry sees MJ make out with Spidey off the side of a helochopter and yells in the exact same pose as Ock, "SPIDDDDER-MANNNNNNN!!!!!!" imiplying his hatred for Spidey comes from "stealing his girl," only.

There is also no real Peter/MJ romance but ultimately the same set-up as in S:TM. Also, for the curious the site features Abrhams dreaded Superman screenplay, as well as two of Kevin Smith's drafts from way back when.
 
Ahh, but imo these movies aren't mediocre. They are grade A garbage on almost every level. I'll give that the spidey movies are generally decently made movies but for me as spider-man movies, there's too much of a departure that cripples the movies, when there are themes and concepts that could and should have been used, easily with the resources available. The movies in bold were pretty much doomed from the start, they had no hope.



I think that's the problem though. Too many people are busy comparing the spidey movies to other movies instead of analysing these movies solely for what they are as indvidual movies being made to adapt and successfully reinterpreting the source material. The spidey movies when compared to other comic book movies are quite good and its easy to see why people would label them masterpieces but when one isn't comparing these spidey movies to other flicks, I think its easier to judge them better when matching them up against the source material...at least for me anyway.

Quick point here.

The faults with some of the others movies you mention are fairly obvious and anyone can spot them. I too have issues with them so i dont really go around flogging those dead horses if others are willing to do so.

The thing with the spidey franchise is that i feel that even though it's may have pushed boundaries, it hasn't even began to peak and I shouldn't just merely accept the standard it's showing simply because it is (apparently) better than everything else out there.

the whole genre (especially the franchises sitting comfortably) really have to push the boat out with regards to their narratives and story telling. I'm not bothered about special effects.

If you've seen some of my older posts, i've made arguments on whether there could be superhero based films without violence being shown altogether or any use of powers. I feel one could easily do this with a wolverine type film where the character is more than enough to carry a whole filim. I personally think the hulk (with violence of course) can carry two whole films without the need for a heavy showcase with a powerful nemesis because his psyche is so deep and interesting.

I want an oscar worthy tale from this genre and there's no way you can tell me it's not possible, there are countless tales that could easily be adapted well waiting to be utilised to their full or even plenty of mediocre stories waiting to be expanded and given proper depth.

I feel though this franchise has gotten comfy and the rate of increase in subsequent films is going to drop since (i feel) it's been dropping since the first installment but advances in CGI and gimmicks have helped cover this up.

I think we are being cheated and being made to feel guilty for asking for better quality as fans. All of this stuff they say about being fans and reading comics is all publicity trollocks because they've missed some real big points.

More than likely they've omitted these points in favour of telling 'THEIR' story and when that happens, what's the point of having the superhero name attached.

IN a nutshell, i feel to this day that the incredibles is the best representation superheroes on the big screen to date, and it's supposed to be a piss take. When the piss takes take its characters more seriously than the real media, then there are problems.

I quoted both of you because you both seem to be making the same point.

Of course, no matter what director we got, i feel he/she would have done some things that some or all of us didnt like, remember, this is just Raimi's (with some obvious studio interference in 1 and 3) on around 40 years of material (which it could be argued itself is inconsistant to its approach to the character, as is the case with any CB character).

Anyway, the point i'm trying to make is, it was hard to adapt all of this history in around 6 hours of run-time, and i still feel they did a pretty damn good job of it. Peter was sympathetic and relatable (at least to me) and tghe majority of villains were sympathetic too, and, this is something i always look for in a good movie, they were aloud to breath, so to speak, we got to know them, which makes such a difference IMO when we get to sit through their trials and tribulations. As i have said before, Peter being a regular guy, who suffers from regular problems, despite the fact that he is a superhero, has always for me, been a cornerstone of the character, and in my eyes, this aspect of the character was adapted perfectly, hence why i consider the movies to be good adaptations.

With the Spiderman movies, i often found myself relating to Peter, imagining myself in his shoes quite often, and being able to refer to my own experiences when something more personal happened. This is a magic that few blockbusters are able to attain IMO, and its what makes the trilogy (more so the first 2 movies) just that much more enjoyable for me, more so than the (admittedly great) action scene's.

I personally enjoy CB movies with more character than action in SO much more, which is why my top 5 (or even 10, but i wont list them all) consist of movies like Batman Begins, X2, Spiderman 2, Superman Returns and Hulk, rather than the likes of the FF movies, or X3, or Elektra, which are, as Mr. Jide eloquently put, 'garbage.'

Other than one or two moments in the whole trilogy, i dont think the Spiderman movies approach the 'garbage' level in any way, shape or form. In fact the majority of the trilogy is well above the 'mediocre' mark for me, and thinking back, to ten years ago when i was watching TAS religiously, i dont think i could have hoped for that in a million years.

In my eyes we got both good movies and good adaptations, and i think this is something we will all have to agree to disagree on, but again, it was great discussing with you guys in a friendly way.
 
What is the point os keeping them around?

So that they can be used again. Most fanboys here, are calling for the sinister 6, yeah, like that'll happen when Raimi's killed off all the bloody villains. Also, if these movies focused on being character and story driven as opposed to primarily being used as a vehicle to sell toys and spidey goody bags, these movies would realise that they could get some serious mileage with some of the villains. Doc Ock is a classic example of a villain that could show up more than once and deliver the goods. Try thinking outside the box.

These aren't comics, you don't need to keep villains around for 40 years--and it's better that you don't, since rehasing villains for more than one movie shows a lack of creativity.

Lack of creativity?? Yet, here we have Raimi rehashing elements of sm1 into sm2. We have Raimi's stories and scenarios parralleling movies such as superman and batman. There's nothing earth-shatteringly creative about Raimi's approach into making these movies. Even his ideas lack originality and cohesion, the latter evidenced in sm3. The superman films, although as a whole are, a dissapointment but having a recurring villain worked and proved to not always be a bad thing, even the x-men movies managed this. If anything, having the villains not be killed off shows balls and actual creativity in that, a door is left open for possible encounters. Raimi should apply some foward thinking, this way we wouldn't have to end up dipping into the c-list villain category.

Hell, it wouldn't even be realistic (or at least, the movies' version of realistic) to have all of these super villains roaming around. It would just look too cartoony.

Who said anthing about having the villains roaming around? Read my post...I said that spider-man hasn't been able to apprehend any of the villains and put their asses in jail, which, given spidey's character and nature should be his primary goal and not to just let them die.

Spidey made no effort to save the burglar, granted, Norman's death couldn't be helped but instead of taking his body to the hospital, spidey drops him off at the osborn mansion...yes, very creative and realistic:whatever: . Spidey makes no attempt to help or rescue doc ock, he just crawls all over his web, making small talk with MJ (who btw is the bastion of importance:whatever: ) I'll give that spidey tried to save Eddy but by spider-man's standards of responsibility, it was a poor and half-assed effort. The way in which Harry died was a joke. Spidey not only had the strength and will power to break free, he also had more than enough motivation and insentive to want to break free but no, he just remained there, allowing his best friend to get impaled needlessly and to top things off, instead of rushing Harry to the hospital, spidey stands there having a heart to heart with a convict who just so happens to have incredible super powers and despite not being in a position to take sandman down by force, he neglects any attempt to convince sandman to turn himself in and simply watches him float away........and you want to talk about realism??:huh: Like I keep saying, Raimi just doesn't get spider-man.
 
Did Sandman kill anyone (other than Uncle Ben that is)? I see no proof of that. We know Venom did, but it never shows Sandman kill anyone other than Uncle Ben.

During the spidey day festival, where sandman is being pursued by 2 cops, he enlarges himself into a giant fist and smacks the hell out of a cop, sending his ass flying into thw wind screen of a car. That right there is instant death and death to a cop no doubt, which makes matters for marko even worse, he's now a cop-killer. Then, at the construction site, I'm sure he killed a few more cops if not, he was at the very least an accessory to their murders, therefore he's still guilty by law on that account alone. So yes, when its all said and done, sandman did kill and he has gone unpunished for it.
 
Mr. Jide I read your posts and let's just say we are clearly never going to reach an understanding on this discussion.

I've merely been arguing in this thread (for the most part) that these are good movies and not mediocre happy meals like you call them (and they could have easily been looking at almost every other superhero movie ever made). I"ve been trying to point out their merits and why they are so beloved by non fan-obsessed audiences. Even if they were bad adaptations (which I think they're not), they are still good movies. Just as The Shining and A Clockwork Orange are great movies but AWFUL adaptations. I like Coppola's "Bram Stoker's Dracula," even though thematically it pisses all over what Stoker really wrote. Hell, I think movies like Jaws and LA Confidential by departing heavily from their source material proved to be amazing movies over average books.

But I see as you claim these movies failed at the first few lines "It's all about a girl, that girl..." yadda yadda, that from that moment on you were stuck to hate these movies. I personally think they are good adaptations of such a wide inconsistant, complex, contradictory and mountains/valleys source material. You do not. We must agree to disagree.

But a word of friendly advice, do not dwell on what could have been too much. In your latest posts you say "if Gwen was in the first one" or if 'Ock was like that" and the same lines of fanboys saying "SM3 would've been perfect without Venom or with this here and that scene there"

...

It didn't happen that way. What's done is done and these movies are what they are. Love them, hate them, ignore them or enjoy them faults and all (like myself)...your choice (my guess is the middle two apply to yourself)...but don't get too caught up years after the fact about what could have been done, because it is all moot now and pointless to scrutinize.

With that said, you say you wanted to see the original Koepp draft of Spider-Man? Well, here you go mate:

http://www.script-o-rama.com/table4.shtml

Just download it in Word under Spider-Man: Unspecified Draft. My thoughts upon it after quickly rescanning it is there are some things in this I like and wish they had remained in the original movie: Examples

-Spidey's wise-cracking funny smartass self. The first scene is Peter getting his head shoved into the concrete and dirt by Flash Thompson but still cracking wise at the punk. Good stuff. Also during every action scene (save for the climax which is dramtically different in this draft) he has a number of good one-liners, particularly when he first saves MJ (which is in the snow, not rain and happens before the Thanksgiving parade in this).
-I also think Peter's proclomation of love to MJ which happens after the Thanksgiving dinner meltdown is also much more mature and better written than what is in the movie.
-Also, if you are pissed Peter didn't care about Aunt May's situation enough, it explains he moves out so May can rent his room out. But...

But overall I didn't care for the draft. If you thought Aunt May didn't have enough screentime before she is in about three scenes in this and we do not see her reaction to Uncle Ben's death, nor consuling Peter on graduation day (there was no graduatio nscene). She isn't even at the Thanksgiving Dinner. Other problems are while MJ is much closer to her comic book counterpart in presentation, she comes off as a selfish *****, with no likeability whatsoever. the pacing is flawed and you don't really see why Peter makes the defcisions he does. While Harry and Peter's relationship begins closer to the comics, Koepp writes Harry as the biggest *****e bag in the world abandoning MJ to die and at the climax leaving Peter to die while trying to save his own skin again.

And worst of all Osborn has no depth and is just a mostache twirler and Doc Ock, who is in the movie does ntohing but act as deux ex machiena to cause Norman to become Gobby and later save Spidey from Gobby. While closer to his comic book counterpart, he doesn't do anythbing but yell a lot about "MY WORK," and seeth. The end is the worst where Gobby goes to prison instead and Doc Ock gets away screaming "SPIDER-MAN!!!!!!!" and then Harry sees MJ make out with Spidey off the side of a helochopter and yells in the exact same pose as Ock, "SPIDDDDER-MANNNNNNN!!!!!!" imiplying his hatred for Spidey comes from "stealing his girl," only.

There is also no real Peter/MJ romance but ultimately the same set-up as in S:TM. Also, for the curious the site features Abrhams dreaded Superman screenplay, as well as two of Kevin Smith's drafts from way back when.

Cheers for the link, brother.
 
the way harry came back and died in spider-man 3 was SO much better than how it happened in the comics, the way it was led up to, the execution, perfectly worked
 
I quoted both of you because you both seem to be making the same point.

Of course, no matter what director we got, i feel he/she would have done some things that some or all of us didnt like, remember, this is just Raimi's (with some obvious studio interference in 1 and 3) on around 40 years of material (which it could be argued itself is inconsistant to its approach to the character, as is the case with any CB character).

The funny thing is, despite studio interference in sm1 and 3...I find sm2, despite being a better made movie than the other two, to be the worst adaptation of the 3 movies. Also, with regards to the 40 years of source material, I agree and it is fact as you and DaCrow have pointed out that there are inconsistencies and contracdictions with the characters and continuity BUT last time I checked, Raimi said he was basing his stories and characters on the early era of the spidey mythos...now, with regard to sm1 and 2, I feel that they should have been better handled when you take that into considration because, in this instance, Raimi and co don't have to sift through catalogues of material that span the entire 40 years but primarily the 60s and early 70s era...and that's just simply to adapt a story.

As for sm3, assuming they had the villains locked for the script, all they had to do was adapt and tie up good stories that feature the villains in the comics. Harry's death, venom and sandman...again, not much sifting through material is required.

Anyway, the point i'm trying to make is, it was hard to adapt all of this history in around 6 hours of run-time, and i still feel they did a pretty damn good job of it.

I disagree. As i've mentioned, if Raimi knew what villains to he'd be working with, it'd be easier to narrow the search for good stories involving these villains that he could then go on to adapt. Sure, we know there are mountains f history and back story but if Raimi knows the haracters he wants or ends up using, his search for and adapting the source material is a lot easier than people think.
Also, I feel as though there were episodes od the 90s animated series that did great jobs in adapting stories and that was simply because they did what I said the movies should do. Instead of sifting through 40 years of material, no what you want and then narrow the search and adapt what works best. Doc Armed and Dangerous, Night of the Lizard, Turning Point...these are just 3 examples of 20 minute episodes from T90sAS that knew how to handle this.
Peter was sympathetic and relatable (at least to me) and tghe majority of villains were sympathetic too, and, this is something i always look for in a good movie, they were aloud to breath, so to speak, we got to know them, which makes such a difference IMO when we get to sit through their trials and tribulations. As i have said before, Peter being a regular guy, who suffers from regular problems, despite the fact that he is a superhero, has always for me, been a cornerstone of the character, and in my eyes, this aspect of the character was adapted perfectly, hence why i consider the movies to be good adaptations.

For me, Peter started out sympathetic, we loked set to be skipping on the yellow brick road here but then, things got rather silly and over exagerrated that turned the sympathy into pathetic. Raimi turned peter into a person who had normal everday troubles, into a perpetual social abomination, where once it was like, "ok I can relate to this, poor guy, I reallly feel for him" into absurdly p1ssing all over peer's character. He ended up becoming a joke and it's at that point where one, such as myself lost that connection, sympathy and empathy for that matter.

As for the sympathetic villains, I think it wasn't needed and furthermore only cheapens the villains rightfully deserving of such treatment such as, Dr.Connors/the lizard. Raimi seems to be of the mind that in this world, real or fiction that there couldn't possibly be evil or megalomaniacs. Story and character driven premises would have benefited these movies a lot more had Raimi implemented this in a justified manner. It would have added layers and depths to these villains and made them more credible than the end result of who we ended up with.
I didn't appreciate Dr Octavius being all smiles, cracking jokes, playing happy husband, giving love and poetry advice. I would have preferd a troubled man, exploring some of his buried secrets, seeing what makes him tick and how he realates to his peers and to people in general. Explore his obssession with being the greatest mind of all time and proving his detractors wrong and seeing how his lack of humility and his hastiness to succeed, ultimately turns him into Dr Octopus. It can be done it just hasn't...unfortunately.

With the Spiderman movies, i often found myself relating to Peter, imagining myself in his shoes quite often, and being able to refer to my own experiences when something more personal happened. This is a magic that few blockbusters are able to attain IMO, and its what makes the trilogy (more so the first 2 movies) just that much more enjoyable for me, more so than the (admittedly great) action scene's.

Fair enough. At first I was able to do the same but the movies quickly botched the character(s) at such an alarming rate that most of my connection vanished as quickly as it came.

I personally enjoy CB movies with more character than action in SO much more, which is why my top 5 (or even 10, but i wont list them all) consist of movies like Batman Begins, X2, Spiderman 2, Superman Returns and Hulk, rather than the likes of the FF movies, or X3, or Elektra, which are, as Mr. Jide eloquently put, 'garbage.'

As do I BUT that depends entirely on how the characters are portrayed and how they progress through a complimenting story.
 
the way harry came back and died in spider-man 3 was SO much better than how it happened in the comics, the way it was led up to, the execution, perfectly worked

Harry's death was a joke in sm3 and the reasons surrounding his coming to help peter was unjustifiably lame. His death in the comics trounces that of what happened in the movie.
 
I'm just cutting to the meat of your post to try and give (a hopefully brief) counterpoint and counterbalance.

First and foremost the first movie does feature a Parker with problems post-powers I'd argue. Besides the whole pesky thing about feeling guilt for his uncle's death-thingy, he does feel responsible for Aunt May getting attacked. He does deal with his best friend dating the love of his life, behind his back.

ah, c'mon, parker aunt may gets attacked twice over the franchise, apart from a small scene in a hospital in the first film, parker no longer cares, he doesn't show her any emotion by being kidnapped by ock. For all we know, the next time he sees her is when he confesses his uncle's death is his fault.

I have no issues with him living elsewhere BUT you can't tell me that the dearest person to you has their house explode and can't make the bills and you happily also struggle in town in a ONE BEDROOM APARTMENT (he's not even sharing or in a dorm) with a MOPED and not find a problem with that. The way the story is set up makes him seem not care. All that were required were a few lines of explanation. That isn't a strict comic book adhesion thing, that's simply a continuity flaw.

Now you'll point out none of those are financial or crippling problems, this is true. It was the glossiest of the three movies (though superior to SM3, by far). However, this is rectified in SM2 IMO. You seem to have really missed the point of that film. MJ is the centerpiece of his heartache because he has taken this responsibility to an unhealthy level and it is costing him. But MJ has nothing to do with him doing bad in school, losing his pizza job or having not enough money to pay the rent. That is all due ot being Spidey.
For me to illustrate this point, you have to take into account spidey 3 where nothing has changed in peter's life except for having MJ and now he's on top of the world?

Looking at the before and after, MJ and not having harry as a friend are the only things that have changed, yet now he is fine with rent (why mj never moved in, i'll never know), getting money from somewhere and is an excellent scholar.

This shows clearly all his earlier 'problems' had nothing to do with spiderman at all. In fact his spidey persona was enough to pay the bills but he shows to no longer get many shots of him and it hindered his income, so spidey was in fact helping him. As he should have been in the comics and how he did in the first film. The only thing i can relate to the studies is that he's not in class thinking about mj which is why he's doing better.

The thing that cuts deepest to him, is he thinks it prevents him from pursuing MJ or love in general, but it is his own self-isolation that is the problem.
This is a fault that goes back to the very first line of the first movie, love should not be parker's paramount driving force, or at least that kinda love.

This movie does what you originally wanted, being Spider-Man sucks. He doesn't have the girl, gets no resepect for 2/3 of the movie and is stepped on at work, school and home by his bosses, peers and tennants. His best friend is estranged from him due to his secrecy and he also can blame himself for Aunt May not being able to pay the rent because of Uncle Ben's death.

NO. This film shows PETER PARKER SUCKS and it also has no reason to really deal with spidey.

He doesn't have the girl because peter parker rejected the girl (albeit on spidey's account)
He gets no respect because Peter Parker is an idiot
He is stepped on at work because peter parker has no backbone (see how he's treated when he gets the black symbiote to understand)
He gets stepped on in school because peter parker is still for some reason a NERD
He gets stepped on by his landlord because peter parker no longer wants to sell images of spider-man and can't make ends meet
he gets stepped on by harry because peter parker can't make up a single lie about how he hates spiderman and is only taking pictures of him so the bugle can lynch him.
Him helping his aunt out has nothing to do with being spidey, Peter parker doesnt
His uncle's death in the film was always about peter and not spidey.

When you look at it in this form, you see he's clearly using his alter ego as a scapegoat for the problems in his life but it's him who is the problem. Again, this is highlighted in spidey 3 where nothing really has changed, infact he's taken up more responsibility and his world is perfect.

He regresses. His journey is about turning his back on his responsibilities and trying to return to a more care-free adolesence. That is why he is wearing glasses agai, really. He is being very selfish and pursuing his own interests, much like a college kid will ignore classes and instead of playing on a playground will got get drunk and laid at a party.
Again this story really didn't need to be told. By the end of the first film he already seems fairly balanced with mj being the only part of the equation missing. that was fine.

if they wished to do a spidey 'no more' storyline, why not actually have his antics as spidey seemingly affect someone negatively before he gives it up instead of this 'love' line. Have the love come as a result of it. then it gives both peter parker and spider-man pros and cons and keeps it all very simple instead of making all these lies about balance.

parker's an intelligent guy, you can't tell me after years of being spidey, he suddenly became uneasy with the load and now only managed it with the additions of wanting a fiance. Overall, it's too fairy tale with all these dust sized problems being made bigger issues than they are in the next installment.

At the very worst, keep him struggling in 3 (at the beginning) and then have the symbiote come in and that's when the glory and the vanity and the balance and the fan love and sandman loathing all come in. It makes the symbiote more influential in spidey's life and thus makes spidey's attraction to it more dangerous.

you see what i mean here about taking from one movie and using it in the next for fluidity?

Now as for Aunt May and Uncle Ben, two characters who you think were neglected in SM2, I'd disagree. Throughout the movie Peter feels guilty for Aunt May's woes. He tries to give her the $20 back, but she won't take hand outs from her nephew. It is like a deleted scene in the first movie where Uncle Ben refuses to allow Peter to take a job to help pay the utilities. They don't think Peter needs to but he feels bad. You see this by his face when he talks to her or when they visit Uncle Ben's gravestone.

I'm sorry but this is a weak excuse for respect. Your only living relative was attacked by a murderer and had her house blown up and you don't move back in? You openly go against your uncle's pledge and you never show a sign of reconciling or mention it again.

Parker.Is.Selfish.

Not.One.Dime.Did.He.Give.to.His.AUnt.For.ANything.

The very first episode of the 90s animation, the VERY FIRST, pete goes on a bounty hunt for jonah to get pics of spidey/lizard. Spidey has hopes for this cash but notices an unpaid bill at his aunt's house. He wins the money and gives her the cash. THAT IS PETER PARKER. VERY FIRST EPISODE. Night of the lizard (here's the last segment of it)



It's such a peter parker thing to do that it's included right off the bat.

in nearly seven hours of footage, we don't get that, he takes mj out for a meal but has never done anything for his aunt. Powers or no powers, that's just rude.

I don't think you can really make a case for this dude.

Yes, he swings away after saving her in SM2, but that is a cinematic image that is to make the audiences cheer, no different than the chopper flying West, AWAY from the mainland at the end of Jurassic Park into the sunset. No different than why did the blonde go upstairs where she heard chirpping in The Birds other than, Hitchcock said "Because I said so." For cinematic experience. I'd also point out that it happened similarly in one incident in the comics where he saved May from the Scorpion and swang away without returning, only she was scared of Spidey instead of happy HE SAVED HER..
Nah, the parallels between superman and spider-man have been all too apparent during this trilogy and here is one moment where it's not also taken up where it would be greatfully useful.

His aunt nearly got a safe dropped on her head and fell from a building side twice and he never is shown checking up on her.

If you're going to make a segment like that, why not have an extra two minutes to have him return with his aunt and access the situation as peter parker as well as giving his excuses for leaving the scene.

If they can dedicate more screen time to peter fumbling in a closet with a broom than checking if his aunt's ok, then there is something seriously wrong.

there's nothing to base your 'returning assumption on' parker was well gone and never looked back for any reason. Fair enough it was probably the nicest web slinging shot of the film but it was only put in there as a transition shot between scenes.

Heck, at the very least have this be another reason for why spidey gives up his powers since he feels guilty for not being able to return soon because he has to travel a few blocks to change in peace. Can you imagine that with all that has happened with his aunt, she never comes into the equation as a reason to stop, i.e. to protect her since she's been in the most danger.

As for Uncle Ben, yes he rejects Uncle Ben at first, again turning his back on his responsibilities and trying to prevent growing up (something Quesada wants right now in the comics). But after the fire incident and May's speech he seems to acknowledge he was wrong. He knows he has to become Spidey again and does. Just because they don't reiterate it for the umpteenth time does not mean it still doesn't matter to him.

It clearly does in SM3 when he tries to avenge Ben Parker. I'd agree that at the end of SM3, they are saying Peter has grown past that phrase and does what he does because he thinks it is right and is no longer guilt ridden. A huge departure from the comics that I won't argue if you hate. But his guilt still present throughout all of SM3 until the last 10 minutes and all of SM2. He also
This is poor and doesn't emphasise the same thing.

Parker rejects his uncle face to face. I'm not even sure if that's ever happened before. Not only this, he doesn't reconcile and for what reason. The dream clearly marks the loss of his powers, surely have a dream to mark the return.

The hop skippity/jump and glasses trick (also done for the umpteenth time i might add) could have easily been replaced by another subconcious ride with uncle ben followed by him busting out of his coma. Job done not time wasting, clear cut cinema with everything done to the letter. Instead we are left with limbo.

May i add parker's emotions about his uncle in the third act were more of vengeance than respect for his power/responsibility line. They don't correlate and it certainly doesn't imply things are better after there last confrontation.

As for Harry, I'll just say that he probably made overtures to Harry thoughout the time between SM2 and SM3 but failed to make headway. That is implied as MJ knows Peter hasn't been able to get in contact with Harry at all recently. That also likely means he never told MJ who GG was, at it was moot to her at this point (or so he thought). Yeah that is bad communication, but that is a central focal point of SM3, if you recall. As for him not trying to comfort Harry after waking up in SM2, I'm sorry but he just woke up and found
MJ's not deaf, she heard harry talking to pete about the goblin probably both at the funeral in the first film and also at his birthday in the second film. If she was as close to harry as they implied (i mean she was at her wedding), then she knew about his father being killed by spider-man and his quest to avenge. Let's say for argument she didn't hear. She is still aware that one of her friends hates spiderman and wants him dead, the fact that is never brought up in a discussion is strange.

I don't think parker made any attempt after spidey 2. Heck it was probably a few weeks between spidey saving mj and her wedding and i doubt he made any attempts then either. It's obvious parker hadn't spoken to harry since their last encounter in two where he bled him dry for information and insensitively left to never return.

I don't expect him to do it at the time but returning to it would be on my listof things to certainly do if i were in that situation and parker is more thoughtful than i am.



On Doc Ock, yes I'd say he was brilliantly achieved in the movie, SM2. Yeah, you may not like the origin but whether it was Molina, the script or the likely combination of the two (I say the latter), he had one of the mostmemorable screen presences of a comic book villain to date. I prefer Dafoe's Goblin as it is closer to the comics, but pretty much all non-fans rank Ock as #1 in the series and both joins the ranks of Nicholson's Joker, McKellan's Magneto and Pffiefer's Catwoman as the upper-tier of comic book movie villains.
If you had not seen what ock is capable of, then you may have a point. I also think that the well achieved special affects may have also clouded your opinion.

I will say i don't care about origins, origins are a means for an ends as long as the character remains intact. All in all i felt it was alright except for the inhibitor chip which really served no purpose. All that needed to be done at the surgery table was mention some radiation poisoning that occurred when the metal was fused to his spine causing an alteration to his brain (or something to that line). Bam, he's evil and it makes sense.

Here are ock criteria they missed out.

He is an evil genius, GENIUS!!! The fact his experiment failed out of incompetence instead of negligence (absent mindedness looking for funding etc) and then the stupid bastard tried it again makes it one of the stupidest schemes ever. Not a good start especially when an not-so-clever parker tells you it's going to fail straight away.

He doesn't get touched. First criminal encounter, spidey hits ock with a bag full of money. that's it, roll credits, film over. He's a fat middle aged old man, he's not the terminator, how can anyone seriously watch him get pounded on the face multiple times and think that's ok



in less than one minute, ock gets punched to the face 12 TIMES, gets kneed in the ribs and gets headbutted (original film footage). Regardless of storytelling, if a normal man hit mike tyson 12 times in the face, head butted him and kneed him (all fairly unanswered), he'd go down. IF SPIDERMAN HIT TYSON ONCE WHEN HIS AUNT'S LIFE WAS IN DANGER, HE'D BE IN HOSPITAL FOR A MONTH. All the fight scenes were like this. Even osborne didn't take a beating like this, he surrendered after five/siz punches and he was wearing ARMOUR!!!!!:wow:

in tas, in ultimates, and in 616, spidey's always lost his first encounter with ock. in spidey 2, spidey beats him so bad, he has to use an old woman for bait (who also gets some nice licks in) and runs away. OCK RUNNING AWAY????? Why was the need to change the formulae

The danger of ock is knowing how easy it would be to take him out, if only you could get close enough. He knows it, you know it, everyone knows it. He manipulates his tentacles to keep you busy, he's so damn good at it, he can do other stuff while in battle. Where were all these elements? Ock could barely keep up with spidey in all their three encounters and was always on his back foot in battle. Sure he could scare normal people but he had nothing on spidey which was really the wrong way to go when showcasing spidey's greatest villain. Spidey got bigger licks from sandman in their first fight where he clearly lost like a *****, how come ock never got this respect. Ock should have put his this lil punk in hopsital first time round.

where was this
spiderDocOcDio.jpg


or this

panel_asm003b.jpg


don't tell me it's the 'you're getting on my nerves' scene because ock picked up a limp half powered spidey from the floor and then followed to get overpowered and get knocked out of the building by a flying table :o

the battles were too even.


He also was happily willing to go and be a spoilt drunk rich kid's errand boy in search for tritium. If you had ock's powers, would you deal with harry or take what you want and threaten to kill him regardless. He wasted a whole day looking for spidey, one whole day. Why should he have been in that situation, no ock i know would have gone that low, it weakened every scene he was supposed to be menacing in because if harry said jump, he said 'how high'. Way to go raimi....

can you imagine Norman running errands for harry, or Zod, or magneto?

makes you think, doesn't it?
 
He just oozed menace and pathos at the same time. You knew every second what Octavious was feeling and why he did what he did. You liked him after just a very small scene at the beginning of the movie, felt his pain in the hospital sequence and despised him for dropping Aunt May and his sardonic smugness in the cafe and train fight. And his death was operatic and affective. I'd say he was perfect in the movie in terms of a film character, faithfulness is another argument. But you asked whether I thought he was well developed? Absolutely. Just because we didn't get scenes of him staring at the camera and crying while hyperventalating doesn't mean he wasn't developed.
If that level of development is sufficient for your requirements, then this whole genre is never going to prosper.



I went on a twelve page long thread disccusion about this now and if you can't find anything wrong with him so be it. The main fact he was sidelined to probably less than half an hour's worth of footage in a 2 hour film speaks volumes (it wasn't even in an origin film), with their being more emphasis on harry. He was reduced to a plot device in his own film. A well developed plot device, yeah but not a well developed villain and definitely not a well developed Doctor octopus calibur villain.



Finally, these movies are popular more than just being a brand. While they do well as a piece of pop culture because of their brand...they are moreso than just that. As I've said a thousand times, the movies have depth and soul. That is why the first two are over 90% on rottentomatoes and the third still fresh at 65%. That is why the first Pirates is in the 70s percentile and both the sequels were rotten, the next worse than the last.

The spidey films are disposable



Apart from comic book fans or people with young families, i don't know a single person who likes them or owns a copy. They'll watch it if its on tv or if it's on in the cinema, but it's just so they can say they have. They are somewhat forgettable.



the only real thing that sticks out over the whole franchise is an upside down kiss and That kiss was iconic. The rest will be clumped together with the early millenia trend for superhero films.



This i can assure you is true.
 
I'm sorry I do not see how this is anything beyond nitpicking.

I personally love SSM #200 and it is better than SM3, this is true. But I have no qualms with Harry's death in the mmovie.

I thought he went out very well. He did not go to that final fight looking to die a hero or sacrifice himself, he went to help his friend, Peter after realizing his mistakes and disgarding the Goblin legacy just like in the comics. Now, I would have preferred the irony of him dying by his own hand instead of that overrated piece of crap named Venom, but for the movie's needs to make Venom irredeemable and thematically the main bad guy, I understand why they chose for him to die like that. Yes, he died saving Peter, but it was just an instinctive move. For the movie's purposes Peter could not get out of the webbing in time (he took like 10 seconds after the fact. Why didn't he jump? Maybe the web's were that tight, I mean it was written that way that Peter was about to die.


After Harry leaps into the way Harry looks as shocked as Peter that he did that and as stunned by the two giant spikes sticking out of his chest as Peter does. He did not do it to redeem himself (though he did) by self-sacrifice, he without thinking did it to save a friend and only afterwards did it sink in what had happened. MJ was going to get help, but Harry knew it was too late and did not allow her. When Peter got down there after the battle was over, Harry told him it was too late, and considering he died 30 seconds later it was. Should Peter have tried to swing him to a hospital? In real life, yes but for the film it worked. I think it was pretty clear Harry was already dead and instead they just had the best scene of the movie. I mean do we complain that Obi-Wan didn't wisk Qui-Gon off to a healer of some sort instead of taking his master's last words? My point is again you are reading too much into it and it was a great moment. Is it any different than Captain Stacy refusing for Peter to take him any further and telling him to stop and let him give similar last words before dying? Well, Peter was such an ******* then in ASM #90 and should have ignored Cap and let him die groaning in his arms going to the hospital. We don't complain. Why? It's a comic book with unrealistic worlds of melodrama and hyper-reality. It pays off the emotion of the story well, even if it is contrived. Cap's death is a classic and Harry went out perfectly in the movie.

As a movie Harry redeeming himself was pivotal as his lastact. He did not die a sacrifical hero, but a friend helping a friend. It worked and just because it wasn't by his own hand and we didn't see Harry in an ambulance you say they ruined the character's end. I'd call that nitpicking, good sir.

Just 2 cents.
i was going to go into this but i'll be brief

harry's death was originally at the hand of the goblin legacy, the legacy which had stolen his father, his family, his friendships, will steal his son and ultimately his life. Just when he thought he was free of it all, the comics take his life unexpectedly.

His movie sacrifice was weak because there was no thought gone into his saving process, he just jumped infront of venom, he didn't push him or anything, it was just like he'd block the blades with his chest. It was childishly over simplified.

As for harry's death, the time alloted between him being stabbed, venom fight and the loving talk with sandman (which happened at a leisurely pace especially when watching a criminal happily float away) took long enough that it wasted time harry could have been dropped to floor level (where ambulances could have been).

Ah, that doesn't even matter, if harry wanted to save parker, he could have been the one to throw the goblin bombs at venom and save parker in a more fitting way while having the serum eat him up during the film. I don't see from a film's point of view how his death added anything to the story, a story he wasn't even central to, rather it just tried to adhere loosely to what happened in the comics and failed on both parts miserably. Sure he didn't die evil but he was never truelly evil in the films, all they achieved was showing he was a bigger man than parker and didn't die hating him.

If you feel that's nitpicking i'll drop it but it was a very 2d way of dealing with it.
 
I quoted both of you because you both seem to be making the same point.

Of course, no matter what director we got, i feel he/she would have done some things that some or all of us didnt like, remember, this is just Raimi's (with some obvious studio interference in 1 and 3) on around 40 years of material (which it could be argued itself is inconsistant to its approach to the character, as is the case with any CB character).

Anyway, the point i'm trying to make is, it was hard to adapt all of this history in around 6 hours of run-time, and i still feel they did a pretty damn good job of it. Peter was sympathetic and relatable (at least to me) and tghe majority of villains were sympathetic too, and, this is something i always look for in a good movie, they were aloud to breath, so to speak, we got to know them, which makes such a difference IMO when we get to sit through their trials and tribulations. As i have said before, Peter being a regular guy, who suffers from regular problems, despite the fact that he is a superhero, has always for me, been a cornerstone of the character, and in my eyes, this aspect of the character was adapted perfectly, hence why i consider the movies to be good adaptations.

With the Spiderman movies, i often found myself relating to Peter, imagining myself in his shoes quite often, and being able to refer to my own experiences when something more personal happened. This is a magic that few blockbusters are able to attain IMO, and its what makes the trilogy (more so the first 2 movies) just that much more enjoyable for me, more so than the (admittedly great) action scene's.

I personally enjoy CB movies with more character than action in SO much more, which is why my top 5 (or even 10, but i wont list them all) consist of movies like Batman Begins, X2, Spiderman 2, Superman Returns and Hulk, rather than the likes of the FF movies, or X3, or Elektra, which are, as Mr. Jide eloquently put, 'garbage.'

Other than one or two moments in the whole trilogy, i dont think the Spiderman movies approach the 'garbage' level in any way, shape or form. In fact the majority of the trilogy is well above the 'mediocre' mark for me, and thinking back, to ten years ago when i was watching TAS religiously, i dont think i could have hoped for that in a million years.

In my eyes we got both good movies and good adaptations, and i think this is something we will all have to agree to disagree on, but again, it was great discussing with you guys in a friendly way.

IF we were talking about one singular movie here, i'd be perfectly happy with what we got. I have no real major issues with the first film. It showed an aspect of peter parker at many points and highlighted other characters in the mythos while keeping them pretty much the same as their comic book entries, it was a very big nostalgia rush with decent story and action. Any issues i have to say about this film are really nitpics i feel.

The same with X1, up to this point i'm pretty much the same, they both have pushed their respective boundaries.

I do feel though that the level of relative increase in effort and improvement for both films dropped. They got slightly better than their predecessors but they weren't way better (that's the average concensus, personally i felt both got worse but that's only my opinion).

WIth spidey two, i felt the story that needed to be told did not require that much story time dedicated to it and when looking at all three films, its inclusion feels more like a filler issue in a six part arc with very little being stemmed from the original and very few bits leading to the finale. With the limited time allocated to certain characters, i felt they would have tried to nail their personas like harry very quickly and precisely based on limited time. With ock, instead of concentrating him, they made him much lighter.

Also at the end of the first film, you learn that with great power comes great responsibility and also there must come a sacrifice in order to protect those you love.

In the third, there is some story about not letting revenge consume you (both towards harry and spidey).

In the second, it should be about how One man makes a difference not matter how insignificant they are (with spidey being out, no one liking him but seeing an impact of a world without him). Instead it comes across as how MJ is his paramount priority and how this is reflected in his world as spidey and peter.

Again by simplifying it, it takes away instead of adding which is why by the third film, one really doesn't really care about what happens with them and just wants to see venom.

yeah the films are alright, there are plenty of alright comics but there are also some issues i would hold as great pieces of literature that not only reflect the times but show great characterisation and narration. Same with the 90s cartoons, there were alot of dodgy eps but there are about 8 that really stand out and nail characterisation and narrative.

I would just assume with so much money in this, they would be able to pull off both with a higher accuracy. In all honesty, it probably wouldn't have affected their profits (this is seen by the visually lazier 3) so why should the extra effort go in.

The time/money balance is going to take precedent in this because they know the brand will sell well with enough marketing. Just like the trailers show us one story and we get a big variation of that.

spidey 2 trailer without mj lust or power loss being mentioned



spidey 3 with very similar clips of venom forming, spidey upside down and bell tower ridding. No mention of disco dancing or sandman plot twist or sidelining harry's story.




note: these are my two favourite trailers of all time. You watch them and get the impression that finally they are going to nail it big time and then you get dissapointed.

maybe my problem is that the marketing team are hardcore comic fans like me and know how to give the impression they are getting it right by taking all the adapted material and forcing it into a few minutes, leaving the rest as stew...

:(
 
note: these are my two favourite trailers of all time. You watch them and get the impression that finally they are going to nail it big time and then you get dissapointed.

Agreed.
 
During the spidey day festival, where sandman is being pursued by 2 cops, he enlarges himself into a giant fist and smacks the hell out of a cop, sending his ass flying into thw wind screen of a car. That right there is instant death and death to a cop no doubt, which makes matters for marko even worse, he's now a cop-killer. Then, at the construction site, I'm sure he killed a few more cops if not, he was at the very least an accessory to their murders, therefore he's still guilty by law on that account alone. So yes, when its all said and done, sandman did kill and he has gone unpunished for it.

Not quite sure that is instant death for those cops, but they would certainly have wicked neck aches.
 
November Rain, it has been fun. I think we've both made our points well and eloquently. While I have not agreed with much you have said, I see where you are coming from and understand your posts. It's been fun. Before I say we'll agree to disagree, I have one small point, though:

the reason in SM3 his life is going so well is because he learned to balance it at the end of SM2. Yes, MJ was the focal point when she came to him and showed that part of responsibility is balance. But, while she is the focal point she (in the second movie, anyway) was unrelated to his job, finacial and school woes. Him doing well in MS3 was his character growing up, not that MJ being his girlfriend meant he can keep a stedady job. That train of ghought doesn't even make sense. You are taking two unrelated things and trying to make a correlation. "Look he has trouble doing work without MJ, with MJ he studies physics better!" I simply see MJ being the main thing that turned hisl ife around but the other things were not connected to her, but Peter's inability to find a compromise, which he did at the end of SM2 and that is why things are going well for him in SM3.

But otherwise, I read your posts and think we may be going in circles. So, I say let's agree to disagree. ;)

Also, Jide, tell me what you think of that script whenever you get a chance to look at it.
 
At the very worst, he's assaulted a police officer which is a big-no no and is wanted for breaking out of jail and also a string of buglaries where there was potential harm to innocents.
 
P.S. That second trailer (SM3) is the teaser and the only image before release of "emo Parker" and what is he doing...dancing. No wmind you it was the only non-silly part of the dance but I had the :eek: reaction to the haircut back in June 2006, come May 2007, it was old new. :p
 
November Rain, it has been fun. I think we've both made our points well and eloquently. While I have not agreed with much you have said, I see where you are coming from and understand your posts. It's been fun. Before I say we'll agree to disagree, I have one small point, though:

the reason in SM3 his life is going so well is because he learned to balance it at the end of SM2. Yes, MJ was the focal point when she came to him and showed that part of responsibility is balance. But, while she is the focal point she (in the second movie, anyway) was unrelated to his job, finacial and school woes. Him doing well in MS3 was his character growing up, not that MJ being his girlfriend meant he can keep a stedady job. That train of ghought doesn't even make sense. You are taking two unrelated things and trying to make a correlation. "Look he has trouble doing work without MJ, with MJ he studies physics better!" I simply see MJ being the main thing that turned hisl ife around but the other things were not connected to her, but Peter's inability to find a compromise, which he did at the end of SM2 and that is why things are going well for him in SM3.

But otherwise, I read your posts and think we may be going in circles. So, I say let's agree to disagree. ;)

Also, Jide, tell me what you think of that script whenever you get a chance to look at it.
I've just got a scientific mind. If you bring something that is going to make your schedule even busier like a girlfriend/fiance, then i don't see how that would make all the other aspects of your life fall into place, considering he had managed well for a certain period of time without her.

the growing up aspect doesn't cut it because it doesn't change the fact he's still gets negative sleep as spidey and has tons of research to do.

Again, i'm science minded and the execution of that didn't translate well.

You're more than welcome to continue with this, it's never been my attention to change one's mind, rather showcase an opinion which may differ and some may agree with, it's also makes for some generally interesting reading from mutual parties. However i respect and thank that you have taken the time to participate, it's not easy writing these long posts so the appreciation is there.

:up:
 
touché. I agree (inspite of all my typos) we have showcased some interesting points and counterpoints here.

I think that SM2 was him just not being able to catch a break or find his flow. He was getting caught up in "disturbances" and wasn't delivering pizzas on time because he was doing his Spidey thing. So, he got fired. His only source of income is an unsteady job where he is already in debt for taking loans from the kind Miss Brant by taking pictures that makes himself look bad (I think the train icident was the turn around for Spidey in these movies for public image). These are the reason he cannot pay rent. And since he is out so much late at night being Spider-Man what time he has left he likely devotes to getting too little sleep and doesn't get his studies done (hence his near failing of Conners' class). He's so poor he can't help Aunt May (I know your beef with that point), his best friend hates his alter ego and that is straining their friendship as his friend thinks he is hiding his alter-ego (and not that they are one in the same) and worst of all the girl he loves and is in love with him, he has pushed away "to protect her," and thus she is moving on with her life, leaving him even more miserable.

Iti s a culmination of suffering. When he quits being Spidey he does better in school, saves his grades (one questions where his income is coming at all at this point), is ignoring his responsibilities, so he feels great (your typical college kid) and to top it all off has the time and peace of mind to pursue MJ. He wisens up and becoems Spidey again, but seems to feel the need to abandon MJ again, until she won't let him. She convinces him life is worth the risk and he shouldn't be hone half of himself. So he does learn another part of growing up: There is no going bback, but that doesn't mean you have to be a slave to your responsibility and power and thus lose yourself.

In SM3 he somehow has struck a compromise. How? I don't know it's a movie. There are patches when his life is going great in the comics before something comes and knocks it all down to hell (just like this movie). Yes, MJ was the catalyst for the turn around but she was not the reason that all the facets of his life were falling apart. They were clearly showcased in SM2 to be the fault of having the Spidey alter-ego.

What I am saying is you are taking one aspect of this equation and misconstruing it to be the centerpiece. You are saying "His life sucks and he doesn't dating MJ....His life doesn't suck and he is dating MJ...there must be a connection!" By the same token, I could go "Look he doesn't know Gwen Stacy and his life sucks...Look he knows Gwen Stacy now and his life is great!" It is a correlation that doesn't work, IMO.

But please respond as this has still been fun. ;)
 
Harry's death was a joke in sm3 and the reasons surrounding his coming to help peter was unjustifiably lame.
How? I really think that bernard telling harry what really happened to his father was a very good idea. It was also emotional to.

As for the death, my previous post says how I feel about it.
 
I really think that bernard telling harry what really happened to his father was a very good idea.
No
It was also emotional to.
and No

That whole scene was just poorly executed. You guys have already seen the video but 3:40-4:10 basically sums up my feelings for that scene
[YT]HoNgMVFQNBI[/YT]
 
Pfft, what do you mean 'no'? :whatever:
It's his own opinion dude.

Usually when I say "no" i mean..........ugh how do you say this...........no

He was saying it was great, I said no cuz it wasent great. He says it was emotional, I also say no cuz it wasent.

Its simple yes? or is it no? :hyper:
 
Well, if you're too lazy to put in words like 'I think' or 'in my opinion' then sure, I guess it makes sense.
 

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