Stan Lee: Fact, Debate and Opinions! ! !

[Comics N' Toons]

This thread is not meant to offend ANYONE! Just after an idea of who Stan "The Man" really is... The father of the modern comic book! What is your opinion of him? What are the facts surrounding his creations and how much did Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko and others have to do with these creations? He's a hero to many for his contributions to the Silver Age and comics in general, but might he be an opportunist? Greedy? Is he the Bob Kane of Marvel? Or just a smart entrepreneur? Alan Moore thinks so. Jonathon Ross thinks so. Sean Howe wrote some unflattering things in his book, MARVEL COMICS: THE UNTOLD STORY. Jack Kirby left Marvel because of unfair treatment. What is your opinion? What are the facts?

 

[jaymes_e06]

What? Opportunist... I don't think that. I think he was one of if not my only real life hero. He took something that he loved and made it lucrative. I don't see how that's opportunistic at all.

 

[Mad Ones]

I saw him at Calgary comic con, and he was hilarious. He basically said that he doesn't like writting and only does it if he gets paid. It was pretty clear he doesn't know anything about Marvel as it is right now.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

But what about all of the allegations about unfair treatment of Marvel employees by many people including those in the comic industry and otherwise?

 

[runawayboulder]

To me, he comes across as a nice guy. He's Marvel's ambassador if not the ambassador for all of comics. Any negative talk from people that not named Steve Ditko or Jack Kirby means absolutely nothing to me.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

Everyone should read this book.

It paints Stan as an opportunist (to use a nice word). If he had had his way, Marvel would have stopped publishing comics in 1979 and Marvel Comics would have become Marvel Productions, for movies, live action TV shows and films.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

But what about all of the allegations about unfair treatment of Marvel employees by many people including those in the comic industry and otherwise?

Stan was Martin Goodman's employee. He had no control or say so on how Goodman treated his artists. Goodman eventually screwed Stan over as well, verbally promising him payments that Stan never received...

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Everyone should read this book.

It paints Stan as an opportunist (to use a nice word). If he had had his way, Marvel would have stopped publishing comics in 1979 and Marvel Comics would have become Marvel Productions, for movies, live action TV shows and films.

I find it somewhat opportunistic to bad mouth someone in order to sell a book.

 

[Mr. Dent]

He obviously took credit for other people's work. That much isn't even debatable anymore.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

He obviously took credit for other people's work. That much isn't even debatable anymore.

that's exactly what i'm trying to understand!

 

[hippie_hunter]

I used to see Stan Lee in a bad light until the Jack Kirby heirs tried to take everything away from Marvel. From the way I see it now, Stan Lee has given the other creators like Jack Kirby proper credit for what they've done (like Jack doing most of the work on Fantastic Four) and people are just expecting Stan to simply jump right in front of a moving bus.

Stan Lee is nowhere near as bad as Bob Kane and most of the blame of treating creators poorly deserves to go to Martin Goodman, not Lee.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

That is only partially true! But why does Stan never defend Jack's memory or dishonor Ditko in front of Jonathon Ross by denying Ditko credit! Surely, you've seen the interview. Stan usually doesn't talk to anyone (even at conventions) without his lawyers near him.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

I find it somewhat opportunistic to bad mouth someone in order to sell a book.

but it wasn't the author doing the bad mouthing. it was interviews with Roy Thomas, Gerry Conway and a host of other people associated with Marvel who weren't John Romita Sr. that did the bad mouthing!

 

[hippie_hunter]

That is only partially true! But why does Stan never defend Jack's memory or dishonor Ditko in front of Jonathon Ross by denying Ditko credit! Surely, you've seen the interview. Stan usually doesn't talk to anyone (even at conventions) without his lawyers near him.

Stan is far from the perfect man. Even though he gives Jack Kirby more credit than he used to, he still promotes himself as the man who created Marvel Comics even though characters like Captain America, Spider-Man, and the Fantastic Four are more along the lines of Joe Simon, Steve Ditko, and Jack Kirbys' babies. Still doesn't change the fact that Kirby himself was kind of a dick as well. Kirby didn't get along with Ditko and Kirby did a lot of things to poison the relationship with Lee as well like how he tried to claim that he was the creator of Spider-Man.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

As I understand it, it was Simon who tried to claim that he and Kirby were the creators of Spider-Man with their teenage character, the Silver Spider who had a costume that came out of a ring who was already published once or twice in the 50's. Kirby always said he created Galactus using the bible as a reference. Lee said all Kirby did was create his herald, the Surfer!

 

[Son of Coul]

I'm not super well-versed in this stuff, but I know there have been some damning allegations that Stan was basically a big credit-stealer. They've basically kept him around because he's good as the face of Marvel. It's kind of like how Matt Groening created The Simpsons, but Sam Simon was the true guy who made it what it was and since they didn't get along he was the one that got the boot.

That Alan Moore video made me want to look up the Jonathan Ross interview. Often people are just fishing for a good plagiarism story, but the numerous allegations from industry professionals seem more genuine than just bitter (other than Kirby trying to claim he was the sole creator of Spider-Man in that one interview).

What's the story with Bob Kane by the way? Like I said, I'm not as well-versed in this stuff.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

I'm not super well-versed in this stuff, but I know there have been some damning allegations that Stan was basically a big credit-stealer. They've basically kept him around because he's good as the face of Marvel. It's kind of like how Matt Groening created The Simpsons, but Sam Simon was the true guy who made it what it was and since they didn't get along he was the one that got the boot.

That Alan Moore video made me want to look up the Jonathan Ross interview. Often people are just fishing for a good plagiarism story, but the numerous allegations from industry professionals seem more genuine than just bitter (other than Kirby trying to claim he was the sole creator of Spider-Man in that one interview).

What's the story with Bob Kane by the way? Like I said, I'm not as well-versed in this stuff.

Well, many industry greats like Roy Thomas, Gerry Conway etc. all say that Stan was bad at business and they all say that once Stan became the face of Marvel he was taking credit for even lesser known creations by Thomas such as the bikini clad jungle character The Cat and when fans complained during public appearances such as the death of Gwen Stacy, Stan would say, "I had nothing to do with it" when in fact, everything had to be approved by Stan Lee legally.

As far as good ol Bobby Kane, popular conjecture states that Bill Finger basically created the Batman we know today and Kane just "had an idea". Kane made it legal that nobody could get credit to the Batman characters because his Dad was a lawyer. Poor Jerry Robinson didn't even get credit for Robin or The Joker!

 

[Son of Coul]

Damn, hoarding credit for Batman and Joker? I could see someone doing that. But not even letting the guy have Robin? That's just petty, man.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

It's because, like LEE in my opinion, Kane was a glory hog and money ****e. He wanted to be rich and Batman was his ticket to wealth and fame!

Lee may be slightly different in that he's not as blatant about stealing credit as Kane was, but Lee certainly was guilty of Kirby's eventual distaste for the industry of comics. Towards the end of Jack's life, his family would drive him by TOYS R US and he would cry because he knew he got no credit for the comics related toys, games and action figures that he had at least a major hand in creating!

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

He obviously took credit for other people's work. That much isn't even debatable anymore.

Most certainly "debatable":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXXm-VihdDo

Got a link to a vid or interview where Lee claims sole credit?

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

that's exactly what i'm trying to understand!

Alan wasn't even in the business back then. His opinion is just that; an opinion.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

again, Jack knew. As I mentioned before, towards the end of Jack's life, his family would drive him by TOYS R US and he would cry because he knew he got no credit for the comics related toys, games and action figures that he had at least a major hand in creating! It seemed to sadden Jack and Ditko was just pissed off and is a recluse because of the Marvel way!

listen to the Kevin Smith interview with Stan! Kevin Smith laps up everything Stan says as gospel like a stupid puppy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT7Tpo1_V4g

 

[C. Lee]

Personally....I love Stan for what he had done and continues to do for the industry. I've seem plenty of interviews where he gives credit to others and talks good about them. I've seen interviews where people complain about him. None of us were there for any of it...so all any of us have to go on is personal opinion on who you want to believe.

Being someone who has been in charge over a group of people at work...but still having to do what other people say....I know what's it like to have people think you are in charge and get mad at you for something you have no control over. I'm not saying that is what happened with him and people like Kirby....just that i never take what someone says as gospel on anything.

In any case....the first post in here asked our OPINION on Stan Lee....my opinion is he's great.

 

[jaymes_e06]

"Thanks mainly to people like you who took it up and made it better than what it was" was said in the same interview that my sig is from the Pizza Hut video tapes back in the nineties. I feel like most of the stuff suggested is hyperbole at best and nothing really sways my like of him.

 

[LEGO Spidey]

Stan is a living legend. 'Nuff said.