Stan Lee: Fact, Debate and Opinions! ! !

[runawayboulder]

why? its simple... a few decades ago, Ditko was in poverty. Now he's a millionaire-lite. Who knows why? Commissions? Royalties from all those DC trade paperbacks of his characters? I'm not contradicting myself. Your head hurts and I'm starting to feel very opinionated like John Byrne or something! The fact is, you can disagree with me all you want to. I have not broken any forum rules or flamed anyone. This thread is not about the injustices for Kirby or Ditko. It's about Stan Lee and I apologize if our ongoing dialogue has made it otherwise!

No, you haven't broken any rules. You tried starting a conversation and seemingly had an agenda and gripe to one side, then went to the other side, then to middle of the road.....all while presenting your opinions and viewpoints like they were factual.

 

[SpideyForPrez]

My ultimate point being that somehow whether it be Stan, Goodman, the people who owned Marvel or otherwise... Ditko (and Kirby when he died) is not as wealthy as Stan because somewhere somebody decided Stan gets movie cameos, Stan gets to do voiceovers, Stan gets to be head etc. Talk about fair treatment!

Stan gets to do this because he's an entertaining showman. Regardless of who deserves the most credit for creating what, part of the reason Stan Lee is beloved and considered the face of Marvel is because of his personality. If he was boring, quiet, and shy he wouldn't be doing voiceovers and cameos no matter how much credit he does/doesn't deserve.

Personally, I love Stan Lee for his involvement in creating some of my favorite characters and stories, and for his charming cornball demeanor. The guy just makes me smile. I got a photo with him a few years back and it's proudly displayed prominently in front of my college diploma, because it's more important to me.

Based on most of what I've read, any blame for Kirby and Ditko not getting enough credit was on Marvel. Stan just seems (I say seems because I wasn't there) to have had the better business sense and rode things out with Marvel instead of leaving.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Most certainly "debatable":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXXm-VihdDo

Got a link to a vid or interview where Lee claims sole credit?

I just watched a documentary on Lee and he's gives plenty of credit to other people just like in that video.

I don't even think it is debatable that he is the only person without which the Marvel Age would not have happened and it is debatable whether or not comics as we know them would even exist without him. Neither Kirby nor Ditko had nearly the success without Stan as they had WITH him. Stan however had great success with Kirby independent of Ditko and vice versa as well as great success with Romita, Kane, Colan, Everett.

Lee was the Man who kept a consistent unified continuity running thru all the Marvel titles something that is sorely lacking today. Yes, he was an egoist, yes, he blew his own horn. But he probably did the work of 3-4 people and shaped an empire. Kirby and Ditko and the others may have been his commanding officers but Lee was the General and all you have to do is look at the difference between the comics Marvel put out during that time and the comics that DC put out at that time to see what Stan brought to the table. Stan is the Muhammad Ali of comic books, he is simply the GOAT. A living legend.

If you want to know who really got screwed, look at how Marvel and their BOD have treated Stan, the man who they all owe the existence of their jobs to. As to the references from the Sean Howe book, I am on my 3rd read-thru. Martin Goodman would tell Stan to fire the staff and then go off on vacation. Stan said it was the worst thing he ever had to do. He took no pleasure in it. I think that the people who want to trash Stan for not giving credit to the artists do not, themselves, give Stan his due for HIS part, probably the only absolutely vital part, in creating the Marvel Universe and the MArvel Age of Comics. In other words, take away any other single person and it still would have succeeded on some level. Even without Kirby, there were others to fill the hole, perhaps not to as great a degree of success but remove Stan from the equation and this website wouldn't even exist.

Agreed.

Do I think it's an amazing coincidence that those artists helped create countless characters with Lee that revolutionized comics and almost nothing memorable without him? (Capt America being the only exception...and he was boring and destined to be forgotten until Stan got ahold of him) Suddenly, out of nowhere they all came up with one legendary character after another when Lee was around but were somehow unable to do that without him?

No...I don't think that's an amazing coincidence. It's pretty obvious to me that Lee brought something special to the table that inspired great things in other people. He thought out of the box. Other people came and went...Stan was the one constant. Logic tells you who was the main driver.

When Stan and Jack first staring working together...Jack was an artist and Stan cleaned up the office and ran errands for him. Move ahead 20 years later, and Jack is still an artist and Stan is editor/writer of the books.

Very good point. There are reasons for why things like that happen. It's not just because everyone was trying to screw Kirby either. Maybe if Kirby had not bolted for DC in the 50s (over guess what...yep....complaints about money) he would have been in a better position at Marvel?

I totally respect the artists who came up with the looks of these heroes (Well...the Xmen started out looking pretty lame), but Stan is the Man.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

again, Jack knew. As I mentioned before, towards the end of Jack's life, his family would drive him by TOYS R US and he would cry because he knew he got no credit for the comics related toys, games and action figures that he had at least a major hand in creating! It seemed to sadden Jack and Ditko was just pissed off and is a recluse because of the Marvel way!

listen to the Kevin Smith interview with Stan! Kevin Smith laps up everything Stan says as gospel like a stupid puppy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT7Tpo1_V4g

That's unfortunate about Jack, but what does that have to do with Stan Lee?

Stan doesnt nor did he ever own any of Marvel's characters.

 

[runawayboulder]

It has nothing to do with Stan Lee.

The creator of this thread clearly doesn't like him for whatever reason.

 

[Vartha]

Well if you go back and look at Journey into Mystery 83 Stan's BROTHER wrote Thor, and I bet the only thing Stan did was to come with the idea and even THAT had two stories. ONE was they needed someone to stop Hulk and who better than a GOD to do that.
The other was flat out we haven't touched on a god as a hero

 

[JewishHobbit]

This thread reads as nothing more than Toons whining about things he has nothing to do with.

Personally, I don't care at all. Stan Lee can say he wrote, drew, advertised, starred as, and cosplayed every character in the Marvel Universe for all I care. I love the man

 

[Spider - Man]

There is no doubt that Ditko, Kirby and other artists were done wrong but the wrongdoing was by Marvel, not Stan Lee. Stan had no power over Marvel. He was the Ringmaster in the Ringling Brothers Circus. Money talks and BS walks and Goodman and then Marvel as a corporation had/has the money. All Stan had the power to do was use whatever talent and skills he had to get whatever he could for himself. It was never his job to go to bat for the artists though he did do that. Just because he didn't have much success, people want to paint it like he didn't care which IMO is patently false. I recently found out that Stan gets $60,000 a day for any appearance east of the Mississippi River. Ditko could probably command the same if he wasn't such a miserable recluse.

 

[ares834]

Kirby and Ditko definitely got screwed and I've always sided with them over Lee. That said, Stan Lee isn't the only one to blame. He does, after all, give credit to Kirby and the others. Marvel in general seems to have screwed the others over while simultaneously lifting Stan Lee on a pedestal. With all that said however, Kirby is still remembered fondly by many comic fans and as the genius behind many of Marvel creations. He didn't get shafted nearly as bad as Bill Finger who, even most comic fans, don't know of.