The Dark Knight stuff that has been confirmed by the sides

[Nepenthes]

And I think you're really reaching with the whole "toxic dump" thing. At least in trying to tie it to the Joker. I see nothing in the sides that make me think we will see the 'mobster origin' (or a varient of it) from B89. Personally I'm hoping we see the TKJ origin, which I think brings a lot more to the character.

KYG

Yeah it's quite a conclusion drawn from one small scene I admit. And toxic dump was just meant as a suggestion. I dunno anything involving chemicals would do.

But to me the clincher here is the line "He'll find you" from the thug. It just seems more likely that would apply to the Joker than Maroni or any other random boss.

I also prefer the TKJ origin, by far. It defines what the Joker is all about.

 

[Katsuro]

I also prefer the TKJ origin, by far. It defines what the Joker is all about.

Its kinda hard to define him when it was only written 20 years ago, isn't it?

True, before TKJ he did have a similar origin, but with a large key difference. in Golden Age books, Red Hood was a career criminal, as opposed to some down-on-his-luck guy who pulled one crime that went terribly wrong.

And since i'm assuming that whole idea of one bad day turning a guy insane is what you mean when you say it defines Joker, i'd have to disagree, as he survived many, many years without it.

 

[itsthebatman]

Its kinda hard to define him when it was only written 20 years ago, isn't it?

True, before TKJ he did have a similar origin, but with a large key difference. in Golden Age books, Red Hood was a career criminal, as opposed to some down-on-his-luck guy who pulled one crime that went terribly wrong.

And since i'm assuming that whole idea of one bad day turning a guy insane is what you mean when you say it defines Joker, i'd have to disagree, as he survived many, many years without it.

Would you agree it defines post-Crisis on Infinite Earths Joker?

 

[Katsuro]

Would you agree it defines post-Crisis on Infinite Earths Joker?

No, not really. It has very little to do with who he is today, really. Joker's just not a character who's defined by his origins. It doens't motivate him, really. How many times has the whole concept of life being ruined by a single bad day actually come up? The events of TKJ are so rarely referenced, that doing away with it would hardly be noticable.

Also, I should note that in a very recent issue of Detective Comics, there's a scene of Dick Grayson and Tim Drake talking about the Joker. Dick mentions that Joker's true origins are still unknown, and that he's heard he was a failed comedian just as often as he's heard he was born that way.

 

[Agentsands77]

No, not really. It has very little to do with who he is today, really.

Yeah. He's not much different than he was pre-THE KILLING JOKE, aside from the odd story here and there. Even THE MAN WHO LAUGHS, which many people suggest as a companion piece to THE KILLING JOKE, doesn't really confirm or deny that origin, and has even nothing to do with it thematically.

Also, I should note that in a very recent issue of Detective Comics, there's a scene of Dick Grayson and Tim Drake talking about the Joker. Dick mentions that Joker's true origins are still unknown, and that he's heard he was a failed comedian just as often as he's heard he was born that way.

I like the suggested origin for the Joker in THE DARK KNIGHT. Works for me, and it seems like it just might be mysterious enough to leave room for any number of backgrounds.

 

[itsthebatman]

I like the suggested origin for the Joker in THE DARK KNIGHT. Works for me, and it seems like it just might be mysterious enough to leave room for any number of backgrounds.

What suggested origin? There's no hard evidence to say he's a gangster before he becomes the Joker, it's just what we're reading into the sides. They're very open to interpretation so far, IMO.

 

[bdsproductions]

Yeah it's quite a conclusion drawn from one small scene I admit. And toxic dump was just meant as a suggestion. I dunno anything involving chemicals would do.

But to me the clincher here is the line "He'll find you" from the thug. It just seems more likely that would apply to the Joker than Maroni or any other random boss.

I also prefer the TKJ origin, by far. It defines what the Joker is all about.

I NEVER liked that origin.

Mainly for plausibility reasons, it was like "I'm sad!" *jumps into magic vat-o-insano-acid* "I'M THE JOKER!".

It was well written but COME ON, they could have at least given the guy some mental history (killing small animals or something).

But yeah, thats nitpicking.

Also, I too loved the "He'll find you" line.

 

[itsthebatman]

I NEVER liked that origin.

Mainly for plausibility reasons, it was like "I'm sad!" *jumps into magic vat-o-insano-acid* "I'M THE JOKER!".

It was well written but COME ON, they could have at least given the guy some mental history (killing small animals or something).

But yeah, thats nitpicking.

Also, I too loved the "He'll find you" line.

Well, the point of TKJ was that one bad day can alter your personality and change your life for ever(even though we don't know if it really happened or not). It was apretty crap day that comedian had, in all fairness.

Bruce had one bad day as an 8 year old, and it changed his life for ever.

Mainly for plausibility reasons, it was like "I'm sad!" *jumps into magic vat-o-insano-acid* "I'M THE JOKER!".
LOL.

 

[itsthebatman]

I guess defines isn't really what I wanted to say (English poor, please help). But the story does illustrate Joker as Batman's opposite.
Bruce had one bad day, and grew up to make sure that would never happen to another child ever agin. Justice, not vengeance.
Joker had one bad day, and became a criminal psychopath. His first crime spree (in TMWL) centred around him getting revenge on those he held responsible for his fate, up to and including the good people of Gotham. So his origin did motivate him initially. Much as the death of Bruce's parents is not what keeps him going as Batman now (as detailed in Death and the Maidens).

 

[DieSmiling]

Katsuro is right, Joker isn't a character defined by his origin (like say, Batman is).

Honestly, I really really hope this version of Joker has no origin. I prefer the Joker just coming out of nowhere and nobody knowing anything about him.

 

[itsthebatman]

You're all ganging up on me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i can have mines opinion as well!!!!!!!!!!!! krispin glOver 4 joker!!!!!!!!! youse sux!!!!!!!!!

 

[gdw]

I'm confused. Been out of the TDK threads for too long. What are these "sides??"

 

[itsthebatman]

I'm confused. Been out of the TDK threads for too long. What are these "sides??"

Script segments for actors auditioning for minor roles in movies. You pay a small fee and get the sript segment for a role sent to you e.g. the lines for 'bartender' or '2nd terrorist' or 'Long-haired Yuppie Scum'. Miranda found sides (through a friend whose name I can't remember) for minor roles in TDK, though with fake names (e.g. 'Avenger' for Batman, 'The Chief' for Gordon). It was all good stuff. See the TDK casting sides thread for more info.

 

[Nepenthes]

And since i'm assuming that whole idea of one bad day turning a guy insane is what you mean when you say it defines Joker, i'd have to disagree, as he survived many, many years without it.

He survived many years because his character was so outrageous and entertaining that kids and teenagers - being the main readership from 50's to early 80's - didn't really expect or question his origin. Comics as a whole have become more complex and writers have realised that the Joker is a very interesting character to delve into. Prior to TKJ what was the most interesting or developed take on the Joker's mind? Five Way Revenge? Great :rollseyes:. it reintroduced his nastier ways but you've got to keep moving on.

Otherwise I agree, the TKJ origin is all about 'one bad day' and the specifics with the wife and child you can take or leave, it's just one of many possibilities.

Would you agree it defines post-Crisis on Infinite Earths Joker?

exactly

No, not really. It has very little to do with who he is today, really. Joker's just not a character who's defined by his origins. It doens't motivate him, really. How many times has the whole concept of life being ruined by a single bad day actually come up? The events of TKJ are so rarely referenced, that doing away with it would hardly be noticable.

Also, I should note that in a very recent issue of Detective Comics, there's a scene of Dick Grayson and Tim Drake talking about the Joker. Dick mentions that Joker's true origins are still unknown, and that he's heard he was a failed comedian just as often as he's heard he was born that way.

I think it is referenced just not that explicitly. The whole "why bother trying...life is a joke and death is the punchline" is a solid part of his character. True this aspect existed before TKJ but is was not as defined or grounded. TKJ demonstrated why he might be this way and why him and Bats are a perfect yin yang. Opposites sprung from the same ground.

With the recent ish of Detective, it's just shows why TKJ is such a great story. You really can have it both ways - although TKJ demonstrates perfectly what the Joker is about without saying *this is exactly what happened*.

It also doesn't attempt to show his childhood. Maybe he WAS always messed up and he would have cracked eventually but the Red Hood just brought it on more dramatically.

Yeah. He's not much different than he was pre-THE KILLING JOKE, aside from the odd story here and there. Even THE MAN WHO LAUGHS, which many people suggest as a companion piece to THE KILLING JOKE, doesn't really confirm or deny that origin, and has even nothing to do with it thematically.

I think TKJ makes a big difference by reinforcing what always existed. He makes more sense, if that's possible. Before he was a just a wild maniac but now there's logic to the insanity and more importantly, his relation to Batman.

Also a big part of the origin is that he doesn't talk about it. He doesn't carry it with him. It reshaped him and turned him out into the world as a monster who needn't rationalise his actions. TKJ's song and dance to Jim Gordon was the rare exception.

 

[Agentsands77]

What suggested origin? There's no hard evidence to say he's a gangster before he becomes the Joker, it's just what we're reading into the sides. They're very open to interpretation so far, IMO.

Well, the line in the script about bodies being dumped there fits nicely with the script treatment comments we heard earlier about the Joker being a body that was dumped there by the mob. But it's why I called it a suggested origin. Nobody knows if it's absolutely true or not, but it seems to fit pretty well.

I think TKJ makes a big difference by reinforcing what always existed. He makes more sense, if that's possible. Before he was a just a wild maniac but now there's logic to the insanity and more importantly, his relation to Batman.

The Joker has worked just as well when he hasn't had the TKJ origin, if you ask me. See BTAS, where that Joker is clearly nothing to do with THE KILLING JOKE, and has a gangster origin. But the Joker's just as phenomenal a villain as ever.

And the Paul Dini/Alex Ross origin in BATMAN: BLACK AND WHITE makes just as much sense as the one in THE KILLING JOKE. In fact, it's one of my favorite suggested origins. No-one talks about it much, though.

Also a big part of the origin is that he doesn't talk about it. He doesn't carry it with him. It reshaped him and turned him out into the world as a monster who needn't rationalise his actions. TKJ's song and dance to Jim Gordon was the rare exception.

Well, that begs the question - why is it important? If it doesn't really inform the rest of the character that much, why do we need to know it?

Furthermore, nobody really *agrees* that it's the origin. Even among creators themselves. It's kind of accepted within DC continuity, but plenty of writers do everything they can to ignore THE KILLING JOKE, and unless a story brings it up, I never once think consider that it's in the character's history, and when I do, I don't think it enriches my experience with the character. Sometimes it takes away. Even THE KILLING JOKE had the good sense to not be conclusive (Joker's "multiple choice" comment undermines the entire backstory, beyond something tragic happening).

I've always taken THE KILLING JOKE as just another theory, and it's nice to have it as a suggestion, but I don't think it's necessary nor do I particularly want it in THE DARK KNIGHT. If they leave the door open to it in THE DARK KNIGHT so fanboys can read into it and see THE KILLING JOKE if they want to, fine, but I don't want any concrete connection to that origin made.

 

[Agentsands77]

Bruce had one bad day as an 8 year old, and it changed his life for ever.

Yeah, but Bruce/Batman isn't crazy (if you ask me), and furthermore, there's some question as to whether he was instantly Batman (a lot of comic books have taken that path... I don't really like that), or whether he had to take a journey to become Batman (I'm more a fan of this route, which would be the one BATMAN BEGINS took).

Mainly for plausibility reasons, it was like "I'm sad!" *jumps into magic vat-o-insano-acid* "I'M THE JOKER!".
LOL.

t:

It's funny because it's true.

 

[Darknightnomis]

Concerning the Joker's origin: I think He said it best in 'The Killing Joke': "If I'm going to have a past...I'd rather it be multiple choice."

 

[wikum]

this thread has turned into something else completely lol.

i may rename it joker origin thread no 3294853234