Superhero films should not be 100% Dark and Moody

[Dr. Evil]

I am not a fan of people who think "Superhero films should be 100% dark and moody. Smiles, jokes and laughter and lighter moments are not allowed." I say this because it seems like those people come out of the wood work when the MCU releases a new project, not realizing that DC projects also have lighter moments as well. One of it's more iconic superheroes is Superman, he has plenty of lighter moments, especially when he goes back to the farm and when he works at the Daily Planet. Even Batman has lighter moments as Bruce Wayne. When Bruce hosts a dinner, a gala event or even flirts with various women, I consider those to be his lighter moments. When he's Batman, sure its all serious, but when he's Bruce Wayne, it's usually not all dark. Plus his rouge's gallery of villains is weird and sometimes goofy, especially the Riddler and Mr. Freeze.

Make these films 100% dark and moody, you take away the essence of some of these characters. You can't have a Superman film 100% dark and moody and take away his lighter moments. That's not who he is. He grew up on a farm and works at a Newspaper when he's not Superman. You can't make a Superman film without some light moments.

Also Shazam. That movie is largely a light hearted superhero film by DC.

And this brings me back to Marvel. As dark as the Netflix shows were, there were also a lot of lighter moments on those shows. I look at Luke Cage as being a perfect example of this. His lighter moments include: him working at a barbershop where it's owner had a swear jar and the patrons there have discussions about basketball and music and books. His relationship with Claire Temple (at least at the start), his quip about Misty being a sidekick when she first used her bionic arm, one of the side characters selling DVD's of the Battle of New York among other things like Luke Cage merchandise and an app that locates Luke's whereabouts, him working out to a point where he gets offered a try out with the New York Jets, him meeting Method Man, Misty playing some basketball and making a quip to Colleen Wing about what she would do if she won a million dollars. Even the Punisher, as dark as that is is not 100% dark and moody. It might be the darkest of the Netflix shows but it's not like it's super dark and dreary. There are a few lighter moments, especially flashbacks with his family and playing the guitar with his military buddies.

My point is that superhero films and TV shows are mostly fantasy, not based on reality. If I wanted to watch something that is 100% dark, I'll watch something World War II.

Sorry for possibly wasting a thread, but I wanted to make this point because I keep hearing about how people are furious that the MCU has too much lighter moments.

 

[CadeSkywalker28]

Agree, and they also shouldn't be 100% comedies that waste any serious, sincere and emotional scene with joke.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Agree, and they also shouldn't be 100% comedies that waste any serious, sincere and emotional scene with joke.

Of course not, but if something that is considered a light moment is integral to that character, like Superman going back to the Kent Family Farm or Batman as a playboy, it should be in the movie no matter how dark the main sub plot could be.

 

[MasterBoss]

I am not a fan of people who think "Superhero films should be 100% dark and moody. Smiles, jokes and laughter and lighter moments are not allowed." .

Who says this?

How many superhero movies are actually serious and moody? The vast majority of them are lighthearted, comedic affair.

 

[Boy Scout]

No offense, but the entire point of this thread is to argue against an opinion fans haven’t expressed in years.

 

[Detective Conan]

Who says this?

I guess he’s indirectly referring to Snyder fans who want every DC film to have the same tone as BvS and scoff at more light-hearted movies like Shazam and Aquaman for being “fun” movies.

How many superhero movies are actually serious and moody? The vast majority of them are lighthearted, comedic affair.

Yeah, in the vast ocean of comedic self-aware superhero movies. Movies like Logan, TDK trilogy, and the upcoming The Batman are a rarity. They’re the exception to the rule.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I am not a fan of people who think "Superhero films should be 100% dark and moody. Smiles, jokes and laughter and lighter moments are not allowed." I say this because it seems like those people come out of the wood work when the MCU releases a new project, not realizing that DC projects also have lighter moments as well. One of it's more iconic superheroes is Superman, he has plenty of lighter moments, especially when he goes back to the farm and when he works at the Daily Planet. Even Batman has lighter moments as Bruce Wayne. When Bruce hosts a dinner, a gala event or even flirts with various women, I consider those to be his lighter moments. When he's Batman, sure its all serious, but when he's Bruce Wayne, it's usually not all dark. Plus his rouge's gallery of villains is weird and sometimes goofy, especially the Riddler and Mr. Freeze.

Make these films 100% dark and moody, you take away the essence of some of these characters. You can't have a Superman film 100% dark and moody and take away his lighter moments. That's not who he is. He grew up on a farm and works at a Newspaper when he's not Superman. You can't make a Superman film without some light moments.

Also Shazam. That movie is largely a light hearted superhero film by DC.

And this brings me back to Marvel. As dark as the Netflix shows were, there were also a lot of lighter moments on those shows. I look at Luke Cage as being a perfect example of this. His lighter moments include: him working at a barbershop where it's owner had a swear jar and the patrons there have discussions about basketball and music and books. His relationship with Claire Temple (at least at the start), his quip about Misty being a sidekick when she first used her bionic arm, one of the side characters selling DVD's of the Battle of New York among other things like Luke Cage merchandise and an app that locates Luke's whereabouts, him working out to a point where he gets offered a try out with the New York Jets, him meeting Method Man, Misty playing some basketball and making a quip to Colleen Wing about what she would do if she won a million dollars. Even the Punisher, as dark as that is is not 100% dark and moody. It might be the darkest of the Netflix shows but it's not like it's super dark and dreary. There are a few lighter moments, especially flashbacks with his family and playing the guitar with his military buddies.

My point is that superhero films and TV shows are mostly fantasy, not based on reality. If I wanted to watch something that is 100% dark, I'll watch something World War II.

Sorry for possibly wasting a thread, but I wanted to make this point because I keep hearing about how people are furious that the MCU has too much lighter moments.

Why the straw man that if you think a CBM is too loaded with comedy/humor in particular that it equates to an opinion that what is really being expressed is a desire to have no "light/fun/humor" moments?

Because that is a straw man argument.

This is about quantity and quality not an embargo on subjective moments of "lightness/fun/humor".

And the common issue isn't even "lightness" whatever that means.

It's a joke seemingly every three minutes.

It's shaving off any real edges to characters so that the voices of your stable of characters kinda only come in two, maybe three varieties (Square jawed earnest and a little dull, pop culture spouting quippy *****e with a heart of gold, put upon "everyman" with a less aggressive pop culture spouting dude bro persona.)

It's running away from really exploring your characters' flaws or having them rescued from said flaws via plot armor or never really having consequences for their actions because that might offend anyone within the four quadrant's sensibilities on anything.

It's deflating any tension or moment of high pitched drama to figuratively elbow the viewer in the ribs with comedy or irony, neither of which is a main motivating element that has ever gotten me to pay for super hero product, generally speaking.


This also gets to the subjective nature of "fun" and how the definition online that most genre fans give on what that is exactly is narrow as Hell.

I didn't grow up with some ironic detachment to these characters and properties. I dare say NO ONE DID. For the billionth time... When I played with G.I. Joe's the "story" wasn't being acted out like an episode of the show. It was in my addled 8 year old mind as serious as Platoon. If the connection we all had with these properties was based on an ironic detachment requiring a barrage of jokes to hold our attention or the like... I don't think these things would have the pop culture imprint they do.

Taking all the outlandish and unreal situations and characters seriously IS the "fun" while understanding completely how this is all fantasy for many fans.


I adore the first Avengers movie. Was awestruck they pulled it off and was very happy that there was the right amount of humor to make this Fanboy wet dream go over with the masses. But post A1 the ratio is too often off.

Worse is when it seems WAY more consideration goes into things like humor/cuteness/quirks in the script over things like a cohesive plot, relationships, a characters' inherent dignity, the logic of whatever is going on in a scene either practically or emotionally or relatable motivations or reaction from your characters. If you are making a comedy then none of that matters, as it should be.
All that matters is landing the joke with no regard to anything else.


But super hero films are not to my mind generally speaking, comedy movies. But a mess of them do these days seem to think that those rules apply and that doing stuff that in the moment does undermine everything else the movie and the story it is telling has no effect.

I happen to think it does.

The reaction to Thor's arc in IW/AEG is a perfect example. I loved Thor in IW and sure, he had too much humor still for my personal druthers (I'm sorry but Dude Bro isn't even close to how I see Thor no matter how entertaining or fun Ragnarok is.), but it didn't overwhelm anything important. You had that great scene with him and Rocket that had plenty of humor but when it ended what Thor was going through, how the story affected him was primarily in your mind and the payoff was his return to Wakanda and confronting Thanos in that great scene.

Cut to AEG... On paper Thor has a believable, understandable and given how he's been portrayed both in myth and the MCU a consistent arc around his feelings of loss and failure from IW. He is depressed and from the start we see he is coping via drowning himself in food and drink. Now I don't have any issue making light of that because a drunk, fat depressed Thor lends itself naturally to a bunch of jokes, I get it. But then they leaned into it until it obliterated any registering of the other elements in play. It makes sense on paper but making light of it as much and as often as they did in execution meant that the only stuff you remember is "cheez whiz" and "noobmaster69".


I'm not asking for every CBM to be devoid of humor. The classic standard bearers of the fanboy set we all grew up with had funny moments. From Donner's Superman to Star Wars to Indiana Jones those movies had funny stuff but it never seemed like more effort and considerations went into any gag or joke over the rest of the film's stories and characters.

 

[NotNickFury]

Wouldn't it have been simpler to just say you don't like Man of Steel?

Find us one, just one, person out there with an actual voice who, as you said, says that superhero movies should be 100 percent dark and moody. You won't find that person in the same way you won't find anyone who says that superhero movies should be a 100 percent joke-fest.

 

[Mandon Knight]

All depends on the character within the film surely and how they've historically been written, would it not ?

 

[Airwings]

A new adaption of Lee Falk's The Phantom, if it happens, would benefit from going a little more for for the serious and gritty.
It will make the film better and more interesting, compared to being only lighthearted and campy.

 

[Flint Marko]

No offense, but the entire point of this thread is to argue against an opinion fans haven’t expressed in years.

This thread would’ve had 100+ pages in 2013

 

[Spider-Aziz]

A new adaption of Lee Falk's The Phantom, if it happens, would benefit from going a little more for for the serious and gritty.
It will make the film better and more interesting, compared to being only lighthearted and campy.

You thinking of something more in the veins of The Dark Knight trilogy and Daredevil TV series, or more like the mini series from 2009 that took some influence from Batman Begins? I've always been under the impression that Kit Walker is less jokey as a character than what we got from the script Billy Zane starred in.

 

[PBisawsem2B]

Of course not, but if something that is considered a light moment is integral to that character, like Superman going back to the Kent Family Farm or Batman as a playboy, it should be in the movie no matter how dark the main sub plot could be.

Kinda like the theatre scene in Thor: Ragnarok! That's integral to the character, right?

(Sarcasm)

 

[Solid]

It depends if it's dark done well such as Daredevil and The Dark Knight trilogy or something pretending to be dark like Batman vs. Superman.

I think films like Logan and Civil War do a good work in being both fun and serious at the same time.

 

[Drizzle]

Kinda like the theatre scene in Thor: Ragnarok! That's integral to the character, right?

(Sarcasm)

There are plenty of other examples in Thor: Ragnarok you could have used that would have made more sense. The stage play that's put on in Asgard was all Loki's doing as it was essentially a monument to his ego, which is way in line for what his character is supposed to be.

 

[PBisawsem2B]

Of course not, but if something that is considered a light moment is integral to that character, like Superman going back to the Kent Family Farm or Batman as a playboy, it should be in the movie no matter how dark the main sub plot could be.

There are plenty of other examples in Thor: Ragnarok you could have used that would have made more sense. The stage play that's put on in Asgard was all Loki's doing as it was essentially a monument to his ego, which is way in line for what his character is supposed to be.

Except Marvel could've shown Loki's ego in a better, more dramatic and realistic way, instead of forcing humor into the film. I'm not saying films should be 100% dark, but they shouldn't be 70% comedy.

Same thing goes for Bro Thor. Couldn't they have mustered up a better, less comedic way of showing Thor's depression? Forcing comedy makes the characters not as believable.

This is just my opinion though.

 

[Drizzle]

Except Marvel could've shown Loki's ego in a better, more dramatic and realistic way, instead of forcing humor into the film. I'm not saying films should be 100% dark, but they shouldn't be 70% comedy.

Same thing goes for Bro Thor. Couldn't they have mustered up a better, less comedic way of showing Thor's depression? Forcing comedy makes the characters not as believable.

This is just my opinion though.

I agree that they went a little too light in some places with Thor, especially in Endgame. I was fine with Ragnarok being more of a comedy because Taika Waititi pulled it off so well and Thor as a character doesn't need to be dark and brooding. I also thought there was a good enough balance in Infinity War. He had some moments of humor in that but he was mostly driven by vengeance against Thanos. Scenes like his heart to heart with Rocket on the way to Nidavellir was what we should have seen more of in Endgame. His scene with Frigga came close but there was still that "Eat a salad" line that they just had to sneak in there.

 

[PBisawsem2B]

I agree that they went a little too light in some places with Thor, especially in Endgame. I was fine with Ragnarok being more of a comedy because Taika Waititi pulled it off so well and Thor as a character doesn't need to be dark and brooding. I also thought there was a good enough balance in Infinity War. He had some moments of humor in that but he was mostly driven by vengeance against Thanos. Scenes like his heart to heart with Rocket on the way to Nidavellir was what we should have seen more of in Endgame. His scene with Frigga came close but there was still that "Eat a salad" line that they just had to sneak in there.

The first time I saw Endgame I was shocked at the amount of humor in Thor's scenes. I thought I was watching a parody.

 

[Drizzle]

The first time I saw Endgame I was shocked at the amount of humor in Thor's scenes. I thought I was watching a parody.

I didn't mind him being fat, and for some scenes like when they first go to New Asgard, it was all fun and games before Thanos's name was mentioned and Thor got real serious again before Rocket bribes him with beer to get him to go with them. It's like spoonful of sugar, spoonful of salt, spoonful of sugar. I don't mind humor in Marvel movies at all but there's a time and a place for everything. This joke was the one I had the most issues with:

I can forgive any time travel related plot holes in that movie but I can't forgive how wrong place, wrong time that joke is. And it's also out of line on Rhodey's part because he was never as close with Thor as some of the other Avengers so it just comes off as mean. Rocket telling Thor earlier in the movie that he "looks like melted ice cream" is more forgivable because it's during a relatively lighter moment by comparison and also Rocket and Thor went on a journey together in IW so there's more of a brotherhood there.

 

[Airwings]

You thinking of something more in the veins of The Dark Knight trilogy and Daredevil TV series, or more like the mini series from 2009 that took some influence from Batman Begins? I've always been under the impression that Kit Walker is less jokey as a character than what we got from the script Billy Zane starred in.

It's because of TDK trilogy. Nolan saved the character after Schumacher had mistreated him badly.
I felt already 10 years ago that Phantom should have the save kind of revival after the underperforming Billy Zane version.
The Kit Walker character and his fictional universe should take itself seriously. If not, the character will be too much of a joke.
Gritty shows like Daredevil and cw's Arrow can be influences too. But only tonally and visually. Nothing story-wise.

The 2009 Phantom series was a real stinker so it's best to forget that one forever. The character wore a terrible piece of armor in that one.
The hero can actually have his classic suit and still work in live action, and still be badass. He only needs the right director to prove this.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

It's because of TDK trilogy. Nolan saved the character after Schumacher had mistreated him badly.
I felt already 10 years ago that Phantom should have the save kind of revival after the underperforming Billy Zane version.
The Kit Walker character and his fictional universe should take itself seriously. If not, the character will be too much of a joke.
Gritty shows like Daredevil and cw's Arrow can be influences too. But only tonally and visually. Nothing story-wise.

The 2009 Phantom series was a real stinker so it's best to forget that one forever. The character wore a terrible piece of armor in that one.
The hero can actually have his classic suit and still work in live action, and still be badass. He only needs the right director to prove this.

And the right script.
Personally though I enjoyed the mini from 2009, I think storywise it was handled well, but Kit being adopted by a suburban couple was a weird decision to take with this character.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

There's definitely a place for it, but it depends on the character. I do think Zack Snyder has damaged the idea of a "dark" superhero movie for awhile, just like Joel Shumacher damaged the idea of a light-hearted, campy one. But it will come back someday. These things always go in and out of style.

 

[Airwings]

And the right script.

The story has to be really good too, of course
It must handle the character in a very good way. It's tricky but it must me able to have a hero like the Phantom make sense to the audience.

The script has no influence on the suit. That is only about the visuals in the film.

 

[Herofan]

I don't think many people say all of them should be 100% dark but a lot do think having more darkness than before including with Superman is valid rather than invalid and also that Batman and a lot of Marvel going goofy is usually a mistake and reason for disappointment.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Must have super-hero landing capability as well.