Justice League Superman's journey being the Campbell's 'Hero's Journey' Monomyth

[idiot09]

So I dont know if anyone has brought it up here before,but I think I will now and it deserves its own thread.

So there is a quote engraved into the Superman suit which was put there by Snyder.The quote from Joseph Campbell that Wilkinson integrated into the costume speaks to the film's themes with respect to the character: "And where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god; where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves; where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence; where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world."

And Snyder said : "Joseph Campbell says this about the hero’s journey and I always thought it was super-appropriate for Superman. That’s his whole story in a nutshell"

And this is what Campbell has said about a hero's journey :

Joseph Campbell defined a classic sequence of actions that are found in many stories.Eg Luke Skywalker in the Star wars trilogy.

I. Separation / departure

The first section of the story is about the separation of the hero from the normal world. Separation has symbolic echo of infant transition away from the mother and so has a scary feel to it.



I.1 The Call to Adventure
I.2 Refusal of the Call
Acceptance of the Call

I.3 Supernatural Aid
I.4 Crossing of the First Threshold
I.5 Entering the Belly of the Whale


II. Initiation


In the main part of the story the hero is initiated into true heroic stature by various trials and rites. Through daring and battle, the true character emerges.



II.1 Road of Trials
II.2 The Meeting with the Goddess
II.3 Woman as Temptress
II.4 Atonement with the Father
II.5 Apotheosis
II.6 The Ultimate Boon

III. Return

After initiation the hero can cleansed and return in triumph to deserved recognition, although this in itself may not be without its trials and tribulations.



III.1 Refusal of the Return
III.2 Magic Flight
III.3 Rescue From Without
III.4 Crossing of the Return Threshold
III.5 Master of the Two Worlds
III.6 Freedom to Live

You can read further about it here but be careful with the return part cause it can be spoilery :

http://changingminds.org/disciplines/storytelling/plots/hero_journey/hero_journey.htm


So if we see the above,we can basically see what Snyder did with Superman.Its all an arc from MOS-BvS-JL.And if you delve further into that article you can see they have showed that journey beat-to-beat in a very beautiful way.Go on check it out.

This is so amazing.Zack Snyder is really giving showing as Superman's journey as a hero.

 

[Binker]

I wonder which part represents what scenes from MOS and BvS and what could be in JL.

 

[idiot09]

I wonder which part represents what scenes from MOS and BvS and what could be in JL.

If you go to the link I gave,they expand on the parts of the journey.It will become pretty clear to you after that which parts in MOS and BvS signified which part of the journey.If its not we can discuss it here

 

[BlueLanternKal]

So I dont know if anyone has brought it up here before,but I think I will now and it deserves its own thread.

So there is a quote engraved into the Superman suit which was put there by Snyder.The quote from Joseph Campbell that Wilkinson integrated into the costume speaks to the film's themes with respect to the character: "And where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god; where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves; where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence; where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world."

And Snyder said : "Joseph Campbell says this about the hero’s journey and I always thought it was super-appropriate for Superman. That’s his whole story in a nutshell"

And this is what Campbell has said about a hero's journey :

Joseph Campbell defined a classic sequence of actions that are found in many stories.Eg Luke Skywalker in the Star wars trilogy.

I. Separation / departure

The first section of the story is about the separation of the hero from the normal world. Separation has symbolic echo of infant transition away from the mother and so has a scary feel to it.



I.1 The Call to Adventure
I.2 Refusal of the Call
Acceptance of the Call

I.3 Supernatural Aid
I.4 Crossing of the First Threshold
I.5 Entering the Belly of the Whale


II. Initiation


In the main part of the story the hero is initiated into true heroic stature by various trials and rites. Through daring and battle, the true character emerges.



II.1 Road of Trials
II.2 The Meeting with the Goddess
II.3 Woman as Temptress
II.4 Atonement with the Father
II.5 Apotheosis
II.6 The Ultimate Boon

III. Return

After initiation the hero can cleansed and return in triumph to deserved recognition, although this in itself may not be without its trials and tribulations.



III.1 Refusal of the Return
III.2 Magic Flight
III.3 Rescue From Without
III.4 Crossing of the Return Threshold
III.5 Master of the Two Worlds
III.6 Freedom to Live

You can read further about it here but be careful with the return part cause it can be spoilery :

http://changingminds.org/disciplines/storytelling/plots/hero_journey/hero_journey.htm


So if we see the above,we can basically see what Snyder did with Superman.Its all an arc from MOS-BvS-JL.And if you delve further into that article you can see they have showed that journey beat-to-beat in a very beautiful way.Go on check it out.

This is so amazing.Zack Snyder is really giving showing as Superman's journey as a hero.

Right off bat, don't even have to click the link. "Can't I keep pretending I'm your son?" - Call to adventure.

 

[idiot09]

Right off bat, don't even have to click the link. "Can't I keep pretending I'm your son?" - Call to adventure.

It can also be interpreted as Zod's message to him to come out and surrender.->Call to adventure.

I mean it all adds up.Its all there.I find it so enriching.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

What prompted the period of wandering and self discovery was when Pa Kent told him he was from another planet. Zod's message is where he puts down the pitchfork and takes up the sword.

 

[Binker]

If you go to the link I gave,they expand on the parts of the journey.It will become pretty clear to you after that which parts in MOS and BvS signified which part of the journey.If its not we can discuss it here

I meant someone pointing out what from the journey with scenes of MOS and BvS and JL what ifs.

 

[Legendver2]

This makes me want to watch the UC even more. 4 more days!

 

[idiot09]

I meant someone pointing out what from the journey with scenes of MOS and BvS and JL what ifs.

The way I see it :

I. Separation / departure

The first section of the story is about the separation of the hero from the normal world. Separation has symbolic echo of infant transition away from the mother and so has a scary feel to it.

Clark is seperated from his normal life as a farmer,and goes wandering off trying to find himself.After that when Zod calls him he is forced to leave his normal life behind and face being Superman.He was with his mother in her house when Zod called him.The whole sequence had a scary/horror feel to it.

I.1 The Call to Adventure

I interpret it as Zod calling out Superman and asking him to surrender.

I.2 Refusal of the Call
Acceptance of the Call

First he is unsure of actually going,then after the priest's conversation and lois being held by the fbi,he decides to go.

I.3 Supernatural Aid

Talking with his father's hologram who tells him "you can save them Kal,you can save them all".also helping Lois and Clark fight the kryptonians.

I.4 Crossing of the First Threshold

That whole scene of him floating away from the kryptonian ship,embracing the role of a saviour..thats how I see it.

I.5

Entering the Belly of the Whale

The whole showdown with Zod and his crew.

II. Initiation

In the main part of the story the hero is initiated into true heroic stature by various trials and rites. Through daring and battle, the true character emerges.

This cannot be more appropriate for BvS.Throughout the movie Superman goes through many trials put to him by Lex and the whole world,which ends with a battle,where the true character emerges.

II.1 Road of Trials

The africa sequence,senate hearing etc.

II.2 The Meeting with the Goddess
II.3 Woman as Temptress

Lois.

II.4 Atonement with the Father

Him meeting his father in the mountaintop.

II.5 Apotheosis

He comes back to metropolis to face Luthor and save Lois.

II.6 The Ultimate Boon

His fight with Doomsday,and his sacrifice.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I mean if you look at all this,you can see how deliberately plotted all this is.You can find even more parallels if you look for.Even other films took from this arc,for eg LOTR,Star Wars etc.This is such classic character development(and its absurd to suggest that Superman doesnt grow in these movies)...he is following the classic mythological hero's path and its really amazing.

 

[idiot09]

This makes me want to watch the UC even more. 4 more days!

Me too mate.There have been some reviews Ive read and they are all saying its a much better,more coherent complete version of the film.A lot have even said Superman gets more limelight and is seen as the main character of the film.I am really excited

 

[Man_of_Tomorrow]

I refuse to buy into the notion of this three movie arc considering BVS was not what they had intended for the character when MOS was made, and his arc there is dictated by the story to further Batmans motivations. The arc should drive the story, not the other way around. The disjointed flow from the ending of MOS (welcome to the planet/yay I have a place in the world) into BVS (oh I'm not universally loved by everyone, guess i'm not welcome, let me go mope about it) very clearly shows this.


Nice read though.

 

[idiot09]

I refuse to buy into the notion of this three movie arc considering BVS was not what they had intended for the character when MOS was made, and his arc there is dictated by the story to further Batmans motivations. The arc should drive the story, not the other way around. The disjointed flow from the ending of MOS (welcome to the planet/yay I have a place in the world) into BVS (oh I'm not universally loved by everyone, guess i'm not welcome, let me go mope about it) very clearly shows this.


Nice read though.

Thanks.

Snyder has said that,they were discussing about villains for MOS2 and thats when they mentioned Batman and thats how they decided that.So I guess even if it was something else like Metallo/Lex,they Superman's journey would have been the same.A lot of credit goes to Nolan too though,since him and Goyer pitched the MOS story,and his TDKT also has a lot of inspiration from Campbell's hero arc.

I completely understand what you say about the end of MOS,with Clark being happy...but think about it this way mate.Until that point in the movie,Clark has just decided to be Superman for what weeks?We saw Clark's reaction.We didnt see the world's reaction to him.And thats how BvS starts though right?"Manking is introduced to The Superman".For a good person like Clark,it must have been very hard for him to see the world being so divisive about his existence and his actions,and to see danger and death following everywhere he goes.And I feel extremely sorry and sad for him and understand this affects him.I understand completely if thats not the direction you wanted them to go,but I am happy they went there,and I find it very reassuring they have a grand vision of where they want to take the character.

I dont mind a character evolving through 3 movies,we have seen it before in other trilogies like LOTR,and I welcome it.I understand though its not for everyone.I just think people should appreciate how much they are borrowing from mythology,and I think its awesome.

 

[KillerWolf]

Nice thread idiot (it feels so wrong saying this, is this why you chose this username? ), I was aware of the fact that Snyder was heavily influenced by Joseph Campbell's "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" for Superman's character arc (probably not from the very beginning, but since he started planning MOS2 which would turn into BvS) for a while now, but it's still nice to have a thread like this here. By the way, his "The Masks of God" is a great read, though I'd rather recommend "The Power of Myth", as it's basically a summary of his most impactful work on the matter.

As for the evolution of hero over the course of several films, I like seeing that as well.

 

[idiot09]

Thanks killerwolf.As for the username,I feel I tend to say stupid stuff at times.So if someone points that out to me,I can simply say,"look at my username" :P

Thanks for reading,and yes I find this very fascinating.

 

[Rapunzel]

I think this Campbell stuff is definitely intentional. I know people keep saying, "we don't need three movies of arc," or "they didn't plan this from the start.". I don't think any of that matters. What matters is they are intending it now.

 

[idiot09]

I think this Campbell stuff is definitely intentional. I know people keep saying, "we don't need three movies of arc," or "they didn't plan this from the start.". I don't think any of that matters. What matters is they are intending it now.

Yes it is.First the engraving in the suit,and second Zack basically said it outright.

 

[Legendver2]

In before someone comes in here saying we're just seeing stuff that's not there

 

[Man_of_Tomorrow]

I think this Campbell stuff is definitely intentional. I know people keep saying, "we don't need three movies of arc," or "they didn't plan this from the start.". I don't think any of that matters. What matters is they are intending it now.

If you start down one narrative path, and a third of the way through decide to do something there will be some incongruencies that come about. That doesn't speak to the overall quality or success of that arc, that's subjective and beside the point. For example, if they had known how they wanted BVS to go down I don't think they would've ended MOS on the same note. Or, if they had made BVS as an origin it would've come off better received, by some that didnt like it, because then it doesn't feel like a retread, or that supes is emotionally still stuck looking for his place in the world (which he seemingly made peace with in MOS).

If they can adapt what's come before successfully then no, it doesn't matter. But if not, then it most definitely matters. given the divide on this movie, superman in particular, I don't think they succeeded in shoehorning MOS into this three movie arc they want to claim now.

 

[Man_of_Tomorrow]

Thanks.

Snyder has said that,they were discussing about villains for MOS2 and thats when they mentioned Batman and thats how they decided that.So I guess even if it was something else like Metallo/Lex,they Superman's journey would have been the same.A lot of credit goes to Nolan too though,since him and Goyer pitched the MOS story,and his TDKT also has a lot of inspiration from Campbell's hero arc.

I completely understand what you say about the end of MOS,with Clark being happy...but think about it this way mate.Until that point in the movie,Clark has just decided to be Superman for what weeks?We saw Clark's reaction.We didnt see the world's reaction to him.And thats how BvS starts though right?"Manking is introduced to The Superman".For a good person like Clark,it must have been very hard for him to see the world being so divisive about his existence and his actions,and to see danger and death following everywhere he goes.And I feel extremely sorry and sad for him and understand this affects him.I understand completely if thats not the direction you wanted them to go,but I am happy they went there,and I find it very reassuring they have a grand vision of where they want to take the character.
.

Its less that it's not the direction that I want them to take the character, and more that it turns the character into an emotionally stunted mess. For example, killing zod. Personally, I wouldn't have wanted that. But in the context of the story, I get it, I accept that he killed because he had to. Snyder explaining that he couldn't just decide not to kill, it should come from somewhere, it should have a foundation was a fair enough explanation.

.Until that point in the movie,Clark has just decided to be Superman for what weeks?We saw Clark's reaction.We didnt see the world's reaction to him.And thats how BvS starts though right?"Manking is introduced to The Superman".For a good person like Clark,it must have been very hard for him to see the world being so divisive about his existence and his actions,and to see danger and death following everywhere he goes.And I feel extremely sorry and sad for him and understand this affects him.I understand completely if thats not the direction you wanted them to go,
.

I want to focus on this in particular, yes at the end he's still new, in public. Privately he's been doing it for years. BVS is about the world reaction to him, and I don't dispute that it should effect him. But not to the level that it does, because by this point he's had two years under his belt, saved countless lives all over the planet AND stopped an alien invasion. He should no longer doubt his place in the world to the point where he says superman was never real and abandons his mission. He should not doubt whether his presence causes more harm than good, he was shown a very clear vision of the world without superman to protect it:

He averted that, he saved the planet, and he doubts his place because he missed a bomb and some people protest? He comes off as emotionally stunted and needing validation and love from everyone. It would weigh on him, yes I agree, but within reason for the character that has been through what he's been through. Im okay with growth, but organic sensible growth. Which, personally I don't think we got, which makes this grand-three movie-it'll be soooo amazing just wait for it-arc a big fat joke and a failure.

Some like it, good for them. But they left me wishing to see how the MOS sequel would've played out before snyder got bats on the brain.

 

[idiot09]

He averted that, he saved the planet, and he doubts his place because he missed a bomb and some people protest? He comes off as emotionally stunted and needing validation and love from everyone. It would weigh on him, yes I agree, but within reason for the character that has been through what he's been through. Im okay with growth, but organic sensible growth. Which, personally I don't think we got, which makes this grand-three movie-it'll be soooo amazing just wait for it-arc a big fat joke and a failure.

I dont personally.I dont think the way Clark behaved was anything out of character or unnatural,and I think its a subjective thing I cant argue with you.

But I could really connect with the character and his troubles.It was not just the senate explosion.First it was the whole africa situation,where his involvement lead to the escalation and people died.Then he sees the a paraplegic man vandalasing his statue and sees it as his own failure.He sees his girlfriend saying " idont think its possible for you to be you and be with me".Then he sees people critisizing him on live television(theres a scene in the uc where he is roasted on a tonight show),there are people who are worshipping him as a god which he doesnt want,others see him as a nuclear threat,the government wants to use him as a puppet,and on top of that when he went to explain his actions,the senate blew up and he blames himself for not stopping the bomb.Everything he seems to do,has dire consequences.

The difference is you think him being depressed at this and question himself as "emotionally stunted and needing validation" while I see it as being extremely realistic,a very normal reaction from a simple,kindhearted person.I see the character doing just that in that situation,and I believe I would do that in that situation.Thats my 2 cents,your mileage may vary