Superman's power level

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So Herc towing Manhatten is bad. Superman moving planets around is ok?

I agree. I mean, why would Superman ever need to move a planet? If he were that strong, then a battle with a being of similar power would cause apocalyptic devastation.
 
Through the Hudson River, yes...because Manhattan is wider than the Hudson river is.
 
I agree. I mean, why would Superman ever need to move a planet? If he were that strong, then a battle with a being of similar power would cause apocalyptic devastation.

Nah, Supes fought people all the time that were on his level Pre-Crisis and never caused a lot of destruction, either by keeping the fighting in the sky, manuring the battles to unpopulated areas, or taking the fight into space. It was more the non-powered types like Luthor who would cause a lot of destruction because they went after Superman in the city more.
 
Nah, Supes fought people all the time that were on his level Pre-Crisis and never caused a lot of destruction, either by keeping the fighting in the sky, manuring the battles to unpopulated areas, or taking the fight into space. It was more the non-powered types like Luthor who would cause a lot of destruction because they went after Superman in the city more.

Moving the battle to an unpopulated area wouldn't help when it would cause global devastation, which is nigh-inevitable with beings who can move planets fighting without holding back.
 
Moving the battle to an unpopulated area wouldn't help when it would cause global devastation, which is nigh-inevitable with beings who can move planets fighting without holding back.

Well, it didn't, not in those comics anyway. Even 1938 Superman level power would destroy Earth if it was two of them fighting.
 
That's another good example of the fridge logic of movie goers in 2010 being different than that of comic readers in the 40s and 50s. Part of skillfully adapting something is changing the things that can be changed without removing the core of the character. You can still tell morality tales with a climactic fight scene - all you have to do is have the fight not be decided by might. You can still have Superman stronger than anything we can think of - you'll just have challenges that are bigger than anything we can think of, with all the necessary skillfull writing to make the audience invest in the challenge emotionally.

But the situation that a modern day live action Superman finds himself in is different than the ones that Silver Age comics superman found him in. You can't just copy paste those scripts. Being authentic to what was at one time a commercially popular version of Superman does not empirically or otherwise guarantee any current appeal.
 
That's another good example of the fridge logic of movie goers in 2010 being different than that of comic readers in the 40s and 50s. Part of skillfully adapting something is changing the things that can be changed without removing the core of the character. You can still tell morality tales with a climactic fight scene - all you have to do is have the fight not be decided by might. You can still have Superman stronger than anything we can think of - you'll just have challenges that are bigger than anything we can think of, with all the necessary skillfull writing to make the audience invest in the challenge emotionally.

But the situation that a modern day live action Superman finds himself in is different than the ones that Silver Age comics superman found him in. You can't just copy paste those scripts. Being authentic to what was at one time a commercially popular version of Superman does not empirically or otherwise guarantee any current appeal.

Going away from that approach was a proven failure over a 25 year period, so yeah...real Superman now back in DC's comics.
 
I'd like to see him be able to lift an aircraft carrier ( or something just as heavy ) but not much beyond that.
An aircraft carrier weighs roughly a 100,000 tons, so that power level would be plenty enough for me to see.
 
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Yea, lifting an aircraft carrier or something similar would be a great strength feat.
 
I'd like to see him be able to lift an aircraft carrier ( or something just as heavy ) but not much beyond that.
An aircraft carrier weighs roughly 100,000 tons, so that power level would be plenty enough for me to see.

For me... visually........that is.. what we see on screen....this would not wow me. It would be an aircraft carrier hovering barely off the ground or in the air, as the scale would make Superman miniscule. More visually impressive for me with a bigger wow factor, would be lifting and tossing a tank, more supes on screen, and it is an object I can relate to, it's on my scale of reference.

Not to say he would be capable of an aircraft carrier lift, just that visually it's impact would be minimal, IMO.
 
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Going away from that approach was a proven failure over a 25 year period, so yeah...real Superman now back in DC's comics.


I'm all for a very powerful superman, but I'm just questioning your data, as you claim something is proven, that means with objective information, and I would like to know what that objective information states.

Do you have sales figures as compared to the rest of the comic book industry pre/post 25 years?

I would like to see the data that lead you to that conculsion.
 
I'm all for a very powerful superman, but I'm just questioning your data, as you claim something is proven, that means with objective information, and I would like to know what that objective information states.

Do you have sales figures as compared to the rest of the comic book industry pre/post 25 years?

I would like to see the data that lead you to that conculsion.

http://www.comichron.com/

Records are incomplete, but I've read the statements of ownership from most of the missing years. Sales numbers and market share Superman was at his biggest in the 60's, stayed as the top title through the early 70's, and declined in the early 80's before Byrne took over, mostly because Elliot Maggin and Martin Pasko left the titles and were replaced by Marvel writers who treated the Superman titles as entry level kids comics. The last year before Byrne, the sales were way down as they were just playing out the string. In the Post-Crisis era, Superman was the top book only in the early 90's due to publicity from the Doomsday storyline. In the 60's, the top ten were all Superman family titles from year to year.
 
http://www.comichron.com/

Records are incomplete, but I've read the statements of ownership from most of the missing years. Sales numbers and market share Superman was at his biggest in the 60's, stayed as the top title through the early 70's, and declined in the early 80's before Byrne took over, mostly because Elliot Maggin and Martin Pasko left the titles and were replaced by Marvel writers who treated the Superman titles as entry level kids comics. The last year before Byrne, the sales were way down as they were just playing out the string. In the Post-Crisis era, Superman was the top book only in the early 90's due to publicity from the Doomsday storyline. In the 60's, the top ten were all Superman family titles from year to year.

In fairness, I don't think anyone can conclusively say that low volumes of sale were proven to be down to whether Superman was infinitely powerful, or just powerful. There are a million other factors which can influence sales - changing market tastes, much more competition from other titles than in the 60s/70s, poor storylines, etc.
 
For me... visually........that is.. what we see on screen....this would not wow me. It would be an aircraft carrier hovering barely off the ground or in the air, as the scale would make Superman miniscule. More visually impressive for me with a bigger wow factor, would be lifting and tossing a tank, more supes on screen, and it is an object I can relate to, it's on my scale of reference.

Not to say he would be capable of an aircraft carrier lift, just that visually it's impact would be minimal, IMO.

This reminds me of a comment someone made in reference to one of the Hellraiser movies. There's this bit where one character gets their palm sliced by a small blade, and to them that's harder to watch than someone being torn apart by flying hooks and chains because it's more relatable. So I guess it's all about what's more realistic and relatable. But me, I like fantasy, I like the impossible and the extraordinary, so I don't mind seeing Superman lifting something that makes him look like an ant by comparison. It's seeing a massive object flying through the air and knowing that a man is lifting it. You can't see him, but you know he's there, and that's all that matters.
 
I don't always understand this 'relatable' thing.

So, Superman lifts an oil tanker. Apparently, I can't 'relate' to that because it's not something that's even remotely within the scope of human capability.

Does that make it any less impressive to look at?

Surely the fact I can't relate is a good thing? The fact that he can lift a tanker and a thousand humans can't make it's all the more impressive to me. I don't need him to lift something like a car (which I could approximate the weight of, unlike a tanker) just so I can understand how strong he is.

Humans will never be able to relate to what Superman can do, yet if they restrict him to smaller and more 'relateable' feats on screen, it won't be as impressive to watch. The thing is, he's still humanoid, still speaks English, will still have a personality on screen. As long as they portray all of that correctly, we'll relate to him on a psychological level and the physical part won't matter that much.
 
I don't always understand this 'relatable' thing.

So, Superman lifts an oil tanker. Apparently, I can't 'relate' to that because it's not something that's even remotely within the scope of human capability.

Does that make it any less impressive to look at?

Surely the fact I can't relate is a good thing? The fact that he can lift a tanker and a thousand humans can't make it's all the more impressive to me. I don't need him to lift something like a car (which I could approximate the weight of, unlike a tanker) just so I can understand how strong he is.

Humans will never be able to relate to what Superman can do, yet if they restrict him to smaller and more 'relateable' feats on screen, it won't be as impressive to watch. The thing is, he's still humanoid, still speaks English, will still have a personality on screen. As long as they portray all of that correctly, we'll relate to him on a psychological level and the physical part won't matter that much.

I would say they must!

That's why IMO the most recognizable tagline for Superman is.......Faster Than a Speeding Bullet, More Powerful Than a Locomotive, Able to Leap the Tallest Buildings in a Single Bound.....these are all relatable to the everyday life of humans, the audience.

Faster Than Light, Can Lift an Oil Tanker, Able to Soar to the Stratosphere...just does not hit us where we live.
 
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I would say they must!

That's why IMO the most recognizable tagline for Superman is.......Faster Than a Speeding Bullet, More Powerful Than a Locomotive, Able to Leap the Tallest Buildings in a Single Bound.....these are all relatable to the everyday life of humans, the audience.

Faster Than Light, Can Lift an Oil Tanker, Able to Soar to the Stratosphere...just does not hit us where we live.

I meant humans can never relate to what Superman does in the most literal sense - we can never relate to his speed, his strength, his heat vision, his flight, etc. None of us will ever be able to achieve those feats.

And that's fine with me. He's an alien being. As long as we have some form of relatability to him (which is likely the psychological struggles he goes through - loneliness, anxiety, self-doubt, etc) I'm not too bothered about matching the physical ones. Kids couldn't relate to ET on any physical level, yet the character was loved the world over because he struck a chord on an emotional level.

Faster than a speeding bullet ....... more powerful than a locomotive ....and so on? They're just points of reference for me. I know roughly how fast a speeding bullet is, ergo I can judge roughly how fast he moves. But I also know how massive a tanker is, and it's not a huge stretch of my imagination to imagine how much heavier that is to lift than something that I can 'relate' to - like a car.

As far as I'm concerned, the physical things are there to wow us on screen. Let the emotional and physchological elements serve any relatability needs.
 
elgaz said:
Kids couldn't relate to ET on any physical level, yet the character was loved the world over because he struck a chord on an emotional level.

Adults also loved ET!....not a dry eye in the theater when he died, and all hearts glowed when he revived!

And thanks for mentioning this film. ET could have been any fantastically imaginative creature, but as I recall the relative proportions of ET's features, eyes, nose and mouth are deliberately that of an infant; thereby relating very much on a physical level. This physical relationship is also often used to explain the love humans have for cats.

As long as we have some form of relatability to him (which is likely the psychological struggles he goes through - loneliness, anxiety, self-doubt, etc)

If this defines Superman in MOS the film will fail.
Superman is a man of action and adventure and not ever a man of self-doubt!
 
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If this defines Superman in MOS the film will fail miserably.
Superman is a man of action and adventure and not ever a man of self-doubt!

I don't want it to define him. And I'm not chatting about taking Superman down a dark Batman-style route. But during his growth and his progression towards becoming Superman, I'd like to see some of these issues explored. He didn't just go straight from a baby to a teenager to this perfect adult superhero, with absolutely no self-doubt or loneliness. He's a product of a lost world, his real parents dead, no-one else on earth like him ...................... don't tell me that doesn't raise some questions for him?

Smallville explored some of these issues. And whilst it may not always have been successful and may have went a bit overboard at times, the intent was good and it made for a better understanding of Clark Kent.

The best Superman stories have involved aspects like this, and that's the beauty of the character. Despite all his power, all his might, all his abilities ........ he still deals with simple issues like we do. We can't relate to his powers and abilities as no human will ever have them, but we can relate to those issues which all of us experience at one time or another - isolation, doubt, etc. It doesn't define us, but it does influence the type of person we become.

I don't want Superman to be simply defined as a man of action and adventure, and nothing more. We've got Indiana Jones for that! :awesome:
 
http://www.comichron.com/

Records are incomplete, but I've read the statements of ownership from most of the missing years. Sales numbers and market share Superman was at his biggest in the 60's, stayed as the top title through the early 70's, and declined in the early 80's before Byrne took over, mostly because Elliot Maggin and Martin Pasko left the titles and were replaced by Marvel writers who treated the Superman titles as entry level kids comics. The last year before Byrne, the sales were way down as they were just playing out the string. In the Post-Crisis era, Superman was the top book only in the early 90's due to publicity from the Doomsday storyline. In the 60's, the top ten were all Superman family titles from year to year.

There is zero cause and effect proven in any of that.

Again, I like superman to be at the more powerful end of the scale he has been presented as having, but I am not seeing a provable cause and effect of the Byrne Superman (who you already have admitted to having strong emotional negative feelings for) and a drop in Superman comic book sales as compared to the rest of the comic industry.

I think the birthing matrix is a horrid idea for example (most you and I agree on our preferences), but when it comes to use of words like "proven" I just am stuck on rock hard concrete facts.
 
I don't always understand this 'relatable' thing.

So, Superman lifts an oil tanker. Apparently, I can't 'relate' to that because it's not something that's even remotely within the scope of human capability.

Does that make it any less impressive to look at?

Surely the fact I can't relate is a good thing? The fact that he can lift a tanker and a thousand humans can't make it's all the more impressive to me.

In this context, I think “relatability” is connected to plausibility – which, in turn, has to do with the familiar laws of physics. That’s to say, even an impossible physical feat is acceptable as long as it occurs within an otherwise familiar and recognizable reality.

Take an example from Superman III. Challenged by a massive oil leak from a tanker, Supes uses his super breath to blow the gunk back into the boat. Now to some degree, maybe we can “relate” to and be impressed by the power of “super breath.” Perhaps we compare it to our ability to blow an island of bubbles across the surface of our bath water. :cwink: But no matter how hard we try, we wont’ be able to blow those bubbles back into a small hole in our toy boat. So when Supes does the equivalent, we’re more inclined to dismiss the stunt than be impressed by it – because it doesn’t relate to common experience (even allowing for the exaggeration of superpowers).

Make Supes as strong as you like. But that strength is more likely to impress when it’s presented in a relatable context. Without that, Supes’ powers are more like magic (with its ad hoc rules) than they are physical feats.
 
In this context, I think “relatability” is connected to plausibility – which, in turn, has to do with the familiar laws of physics. That’s to say, even an impossible physical feat is acceptable as long as it occurs within an otherwise familiar and recognizable reality.

Take an example from Superman III. Challenged by a massive oil leak from a tanker, Supes uses his super breath to blow the gunk back into the boat. Now to some degree, maybe we can “relate” to and be impressed by the power of “super breath.” Perhaps we compare it to our ability to blow an island of bubbles across the surface of our bath water. :cwink: But no matter how hard we try, we wont’ be able to blow those bubbles back into a small hole in our toy boat. So when Supes does the equivalent, we’re more inclined to dismiss the stunt than be impressed by it – because it doesn’t relate to common experience (even allowing for the exaggeration of superpowers).

Make Supes as strong as you like. But that strength is more likely to impress when it’s presented in a relatable context. Without that, Supes’ powers are more like magic (with its ad hoc rules) than they are physical feats.

I think I get what you are saying.

By that even if he has the physical force to push an entire planet, the idea he could just cleanly blow the oil back into the tank looks silly and like a magic trick.

The other is just him defying an rational level of strength. Where the silly looking magic trick makes you say WTF!?!? how does that work?
 
It's not about the relatability of his powers, as most of them are normal human abilities just at super levels. Strength, super-breath, super-vision, super-hearing, etc.
We can lift weights, he can lift enormous weights. We can cool hot soup with our breath, he can freeze a lake, etc.
Even invulnerability is somewhat relatable, on our own bodies some areas are more durable than others.
What I'm saying is that his super-feats are more affective when they are more familiar.
A relatable superfeat for me is Superman smashing thru a brick wall. I know, or at least can surmise, what hitting a brick wall feels like, and so I am impressed by the ability to effortlessly smash thru it.
I have a point of reference.
Conversely Superman surviving a nuclear explosion is something that, while it takes invulnerability off the scale, is not relatable to my experience.

Now this is not intended to say that Superman should only smash thru walls in MOS or any mega million film production, but I believe it is the more relatable feats that wow audiences.

Keeping on Superman III, I loved the rescues at the burning chemical plant. Superman performed his feats in what I found to be relatable methods. He rescued those trapped on a rooftop by using a smokestack as an escape shute and he put out the fire by dousing it with water, albeit the water was a frozen lake he flew to the fire:cwink:. That scene for me was perfect Superman in action.
 
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Maybe it's because it was the first Superman I was exposed to, but the Fleischer cartoons are easily the best in terms of Superman for me. He's stronger, and can fly, but vulnerable to gasses and other things. He shouldn't be able to be in space without a suit, either, that makes no sense. This also caused him to be more believable in terms of sheer visuals as well as gave him weaknesses that can be exploited, that he needs to use his intelligence to beat.
 
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