Swastikas (Random thoughts)

[Addendum]

You seem prejudiced against butt**** mississippi, that's ignorant.

Oh well. It's not like Mississippi has a history of enlightened thought and civility toward people with different skin color

 

[Majic Walrus]

I don't know what you're saying with that.

Flipping someone off does mean "**** you" that's what it means in today's society and I don't know of any other currently used alternative to that meaning. If there is one than it should be taken into consideration.

Right and it's still used predominately in this country to advocate the Nazi ideals. If this was an article about something happening in india it would be different. Again I go back to my "don't trust Whitey" argument. If you assumed I meant white people when I first said that then you're no better than the people that assumed the swastika was hate speech.

What ceremonies use it? I don't know of any personally. It's used it texts, and for some blessings, but that's all I can think of.

Exactly how popular is the phrase "don't trust whitey"? Has it been used in religious texts or for blessings? The two things aren't comparable. We're not talking about a shirt that says, "I hate ***s" and the meaning really be referring to cigarettes. We're talking about a symbol here not a phrase.

yes, and in a perfect world communism would work, but here we are. Some things aren't necessarily completely fair so you go with the lesser of evils.

It's better to judge someone based on the commonly understood connotation of a thing than to actually investigate it's true meaning? That, I'm sorry, is crap. If something is wrong, it's wrong and you should feel strongly about it being wrong not mindlessly accept the status quo because it is easier.

Incorrect sir, it might be obscure to you, but in my Irish family you know who that is. I guess that would equate to someone here having no knowledge of eastern religious symbolism huh? The most well known meaning of the swastika here in the US is pro nazi. Words and symbols are different I agree, but common perceptions regarding popular meanings are just what they are. In a hundred years the swastika might be cool but for now best to keep it on the back burner.

Point taken. However I want to reiterate my points about the differences between phrases and symbols and I would also like to point out that the swastika is a specific and ancient symbol and therefore is seperate from "whitey".

We're not talking about the most important symbol to buddists and hindus here. The swastika isn't their cross or star of david, it's fairly obscure for them as well (point of clarification, I'm a Taoist so I'm not speaking blindly on the subject). So don't state it as something big for buddists and hindus, I know several who don't know **** about it and thought it was just a nazi symbol.

So if it were their "Star of David" it would be okay?

Regardless of what the symbol meant, in this country right now, it means something else to almost everyone and that thing is hateful and evil and quite frankly stands for a group that wanted to destroy this country. I'm just saying, I can see why people don't really want it around their place of work.

Again just because everyone is ignorant to the true meaning behind the swastika doesn't mean we should base judgements or regulations on it.

People here seem to assume everyone is this enlightened objective thinker, and I'm just wondering what ****ing country do you live in, cause it sure as hell ain't the US?

People who agree to let ignorance pass by because it's common are the reason that the US remains ignorant as a nation. If we stand idly by and let people do ignorant things without correcting them than they will always remain ignorant.

I'm not saying that everyone is enlightened but I am saying that if we don't address ignorance then they will never be enlightened.

 

[Majic Walrus]

If you get a tatoo of a swastika, even if it's not really a swastika, but a symbol in your religion. Expect to have some troubles in your life. When you have to explain a tatoo so people don't want to kick your ass, maybe you should have gotten a different tatoo. So many people are talking about other people's ignorance, maybe the tatoo guy shouldn't have been so ignorant to get the symbol of a man who was committing genocide just 65-70 years ago tatooed onto his skin.

Point taken, but really... Do you want to sacrifice your personal beliefs because of someone else's stupidity?

 

[moraldeficiency]

Flipping someone off does mean "**** you" that's what it means in today's society and I don't know of any other currently used alternative to that meaning. If there is one than it should be taken into consideration.

Originally it meant "hey I've still got my middle finger so I can fire a long bow so don't try and invade us" in french. Just saying people take one thing and change it over time.

Exactly how popular is the phrase "don't trust whitey"? Has it been used in religious texts or for blessings? The two things aren't comparable. We're not talking about a shirt that says, "I hate ***s" and the meaning really be referring to cigarettes. We're talking about a symbol here not a phrase.

Swing and a miss there wally. I originally said "don't trust Whitey" notice the capitalization on Whitey denoting a name? No, you didn't cause you were already on your preconceived notion.

And all I was saying is that there are some things which you might be familiar with that others are not. Best to take in the area you're at and what the most popular meaning of the words or symbols you're using into consideration before acting.

It's better to judge someone based on the commonly understood connotation of a thing than to actually investigate it's true meaning? That, I'm sorry, is crap. If something is wrong, it's wrong and you should feel strongly about it being wrong not mindlessly accept the status quo because it is easier.

I'm not saying research is bad, but to assume everyone will reseach something with a standardly accepted meaning already is silly.

In this country a swastika has a commonly accepted meaning, which is different from that in india. And that meaning here is pretty hateful against everything and everyone in the county, so maybe tone it down while here and play it up in india would be the thing for smart people to do, eh?

Point taken. However I want to reiterate my points about the differences between phrases and symbols and I would also like to point out that the swastika is a specific and ancient symbol and therefore is seperate from "whitey".

whitey is pretty specific actually. I'm not sure when we get to decide that something's ancient and therefore holds more worth. But again I never said whitey, I said Whitey.

And you're right symbols and phrases are different, I was merely talking about percieved meanings in area specific regions.

So if it were their "Star of David" it would be okay?

What I was saying is if the swastika was a major symbol in any religion it would be different. It's not, it's a symbol for good luck. It's a religious rabbit's foot for god sake. You're making it out to be fundamental when it's minor at best.

Again just because everyone is ignorant to the true meaning behind the swastika doesn't mean we should base judgements or regulations on it.

No, but people do it every day about everything. No one knows everything, not even you. So we're all ignorant fools walking around with preconcieved judgements on everything. Why would the swastika be the one thing in the history of history to be different? Aren't you asking far too much for a minor religious symbol with a much more commonly accepted meaning in this country?

People who agree to let ignorance pass by because it's common are the reason that the US remains ignorant as a nation. If we stand idly by and let people do ignorant things without correcting them than they will always remain ignorant.

All nations throughout all time are ignorant. All ignorance means is not having full knowledge of something. Let me cue you in on a secret. With anything in the universe, there's always something more to learn which means we're all ignorant about everything to some extent. And who's to say you know more than someone else? Maybe in the situation you're looking to correct you're the ignorant person? You seem to presume a great deal of moral authority. In the US the swastika has a meaning, the nazi meaning, which the nazi's adopted and used (making it a legitimate symbol of their party). All military insignas are based on old wiccan symbols but they now stand for rankings. You want to go correct that real quick while I wait?

I'm not saying that everyone is enlightened but I am saying that if we don't address ignorance then they will never be enlightened.

It's not a question of not being ignorant, that we have no choice in, it's the level of ignorance that you get to decide. When a symbol is used for something other than it's original meaning and that new meaning becomes accepted by a group of people, that meaning is their defination of the symbol. They aren't wrong cause it once stood for something else, they simply use an alternative meaning relevant to them. Like I said before all chevrons meant something else, it doesn't make that petty officer something else does it?

 

[The Lizard]

1976 Japanese robot character "Robogaki" toy from the kids' show Robocon.

 

[Majic Walrus]

Originally it meant "hey I've still got my middle finger so I can fire a long bow so don't try and invade us" in french. Just saying people take one thing and change it over time.

But we're talking about a change, it no longer means that. The Swastika still means something other than hate.

Swing and a miss there wally. I originally said "don't trust Whitey" notice the capitalization on Whitey denoting a name? No, you didn't cause you were already on your preconceived notion.

What you don't capitalize the N-word?

And all I was saying is that there are some things which you might be familiar with that others are not. Best to take in the area you're at and what the most popular meaning of the words or symbols you're using into consideration before acting.

I'm not saying research is bad, but to assume everyone will reseach something with a standardly accepted meaning already is silly.

In this country a swastika has a commonly accepted meaning, which is different from that in india. And that meaning here is pretty hateful against everything and everyone in the county, so maybe tone it down while here and play it up in india would be the thing for smart people to do, eh?

This is the same argument. People should not need to be controlled by other people's ignorance regardless of whether or not the ignorance is practical or common.

whitey is pretty specific actually. I'm not sure when we get to decide that something's ancient and therefore holds more worth. But again I never said whitey, I said Whitey.

Not necessarily more "worth" but more weight. Simply put the swastika is an ancient symbol of good things and that is pretty much more important than Whitey is.

And you're right symbols and phrases are different, I was merely talking about percieved meanings in area specific regions.

What I was saying is if the swastika was a major symbol in any religion it would be different. It's not, it's a symbol for good luck. It's a religious rabbit's foot for god sake. You're making it out to be fundamental when it's minor at best.

Frankly, I don't think it's for anyone to determine the importance of a religious symbol unless they are part of that religion. Hell I think the cross is a moronic symbol that is most closely associated with death, but who am I to decide the value of a religious symbol?

No, but people do it every day about everything. No one knows everything, not even you. So we're all ignorant fools walking around with preconcieved judgements on everything. Why would the swastika be the one thing in the history of history to be different? Aren't you asking far too much for a minor religious symbol with a much more commonly accepted meaning in this country?

Is it too much to ask for a little knowledge?

All nations throughout all time are ignorant. All ignorance means is not having full knowledge of something. Let me cue you in on a secret. With anything in the universe, there's always something more to learn which means we're all ignorant about everything to some extent. And who's to say you know more than someone else? Maybe in the situation you're looking to correct you're the ignorant person? You seem to presume a great deal of moral authority. In the US the swastika has a meaning, the nazi meaning, which the nazi's adopted and used (making it a legitimate symbol of their party). All military insignas are based on old wiccan symbols but they now stand for rankings. You want to go correct that real quick while I wait?

Firstly, let's not talk about the universal constants of ignorance. Really that's a bit too broad for a subject that you yourself claim is unimportant.

Secondly, while I do presume a great deal of moral authority. Thanks for noticing. I'm talking about someone getting fired because of a symbol that really had no hateful meaning behind it.

It's not a question of not being ignorant, that we have no choice in, it's the level of ignorance that you get to decide. When a symbol is used for something other than it's original meaning and that new meaning becomes accepted by a group of people, that meaning is their defination of the symbol. They aren't wrong cause it once stood for something else, they simply use an alternative meaning relevant to them. Like I said before all chevrons meant something else, it doesn't make that petty officer something else does it?

Right exactly. Just like all swastikas don't make someone a Nazi. Which is sort of the point I've been trying to make.

 

[Gamma Ray]

My Girlfriend and I were talking about all the different historical symbols for one of her school projects, and we started stalking about the Swastika and how it's interpretation had changed in the last century.

She was raised Buddhist, so she always thought of it being a good luck charm as well as the many other things that it used to stand for before WW2. To me, I never really cared either, unless it had the big red band with it(that's when you run the hell away)

what do you guys think on the subject?

No symbol means anything unless there is an idea behind it. Swastikas were turned into a symbol of hate during the holocaust and as such should continue to be treated as such.

 

[moraldeficiency]

But we're talking about a change, it no longer means that. The Swastika still means something other than hate.

Almost everything on earth has more than one meaning. You take the most modern and accepted meaning in the region as the rule of thumb (which used to mean the rule you could beat your wife with a stick the width of your thumb but now doesn't).

What you don't capitalize the N-word?

A few too many blacks in my family to mess with such wording other than to prove a point. But no, I don't think I would, it wouldn't be proper grammar.

This is the same argument. People should not need to be controlled by other people's ignorance regardless of whether or not the ignorance is practical or common.

But it's not ignorance at all, there is a second more commonly accepted meaning in this region. Or don't modern meanings count?

Not necessarily more "worth" but more weight. Simply put the swastika is an ancient symbol of good things and that is pretty much more important than Whitey is.

worth/weight, you're saying the same thing and that's old is better or more relevant than new. I personally don't believe that too much. I think if you asked some older jewish people the importance of the swastika they might have a different story to tell you, but they're probably just ignorant.

Frankly, I don't think it's for anyone to determine the importance of a religious symbol unless they are part of that religion. Hell I think the cross is a moronic symbol that is most closely associated with death, but who am I to decide the value of a religious symbol?

Ok, then why are you saying anything about this? You just said you shouldn't have an opinion on this so I guess that's all you'll say right?

Is it too much to ask for a little knowledge?

How much, current history knowledge? World event knowledge? Or ancient asian religious symbology knowledge? Again, different people have different perspectives and definations. So what's right to you isn't necessarily right or relevant to them.

Firstly, let's not talk about the universal constants of ignorance. Really that's a bit too broad for a subject that you yourself claim is unimportant.

I think I covered it quite well. We're all ignorant, some just accept, acknowledge and try to temper their judgements while others wallow in it.

Secondly, while I do presume a great deal of moral authority. Thanks for noticing. I'm talking about someone getting fired because of a symbol that really had no hateful meaning behind it.

No, it only had no hateful meaning to them, to others it did. No one's the center of the universe chief. Other people count.

Right exactly. Just like all swastikas don't make someone a Nazi. Which is sort of the point I've been trying to make.

ah, but in the US they have a different meaning with different relevence? Or don't other cultures and their beliefs count to you?

I'm not saying if you've got one you're a nazi, what I am saying is that has a very different, very hateful and very evil meaning to so many people here in the US that maybe it's better to shoulder some of that "well you just don't understand" attitude and add in a little "well I don't understand just how painful this symbol is the the people here I'm offending" to the mix, just so you've got a bit of balance. You go to a jewish nursing home with that tat and just try and explain it to them, I'm sure they'll be receptive.

 

[Shemtov]

If you get a tatoo of a swastika, even if it's not really a swastika, but a symbol in your religion. Expect to have some troubles in your life. When you have to explain a tatoo so people don't want to kick your ass, maybe you should have gotten a different tatoo. So many people are talking about other people's ignorance, maybe the tatoo guy shouldn't have been so ignorant to get the symbol of a man who was committing genocide just 65-70 years ago tatooed onto his skin.

too bad Hitler didnt have any children. It would be funny to see the lawsuits against them by the hindu/Buhdists.

 

[Majic Walrus]

Almost everything on earth has more than one meaning. You take the most modern and accepted meaning in the region as the rule of thumb (which used to mean the rule you could beat your wife with a stick the width of your thumb but now doesn't).

A few too many blacks in my family to mess with such wording other than to prove a point. But no, I don't think I would, it wouldn't be proper grammar.

But it's not ignorance at all, there is a second more commonly accepted meaning in this region. Or don't modern meanings count?

worth/weight, you're saying the same thing and that's old is better or more relevant than new. I personally don't believe that too much. I think if you asked some older jewish people the importance of the swastika they might have a different story to tell you, but they're probably just ignorant.


Ok, then why are you saying anything about this? You just said you shouldn't have an opinion on this so I guess that's all you'll say right?


How much, current history knowledge? World event knowledge? Or ancient asian religious symbology knowledge? Again, different people have different perspectives and definations. So what's right to you isn't necessarily right or relevant to them.


I think I covered it quite well. We're all ignorant, some just accept, acknowledge and try to temper their judgements while others wallow in it.


No, it only had no hateful meaning to them, to others it did. No one's the center of the universe chief. Other people count.


ah, but in the US they have a different meaning with different relevence? Or don't other cultures and their beliefs count to you?

I'm not saying if you've got one you're a nazi, what I am saying is that has a very different, very hateful and very evil meaning to so many people here in the US that maybe it's better to shoulder some of that "well you just don't understand" attitude and add in a little "well I don't understand just how painful this symbol is the the people here I'm offending" to the mix, just so you've got a bit of balance. You go to a jewish nursing home with that tat and just try and explain it to them, I'm sure they'll be receptive.

I'vek gotten too far off topic and it's hard to keep up with all of these sub arguments and questions so I'll bottom line everything to make it easier for me.

People are entitled to believe whatever they want to, it doesn't matter.

People are not however entitled to discriminate against people based on a misconception or incorrect information.

Therefore what my friend's employer did was wrong. Regardless of whether or not the commonly accepted meaning for the symbol means one thing or another is irrelavant because in his usage for religious reasons there was no offense meant by or should be taken from the symbol which is a valid religious symbol with no negative connotation.

 

[Shemtov]

Pop Quiz:
Is this guy a nazi?:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/af/Photo_of_rss_member.jpg

 

[Addendum]

Pop Quiz:
Is this guy a nazi?:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/af/Photo_of_rss_member.jpg

No, he's a member of the Red Swastika Society, which is a charitable organization, similar to the Red Cross or Red Crescent

 

[Addendum]

too bad Hitler didnt have any children. It would be funny to see the lawsuits against them by the hindu/Buhdists.

Children cannot be held liable for the actions of their parent or parents. So it would be funny watching their lawsuits being thrown out of court

 

[moraldeficiency]

I'vek gotten too far off topic and it's hard to keep up with all of these sub arguments and questions so I'll bottom line everything to make it easier for me.

People are entitled to believe whatever they want to, it doesn't matter.

People are not however entitled to discriminate against people based on a misconception or incorrect information.

Therefore what my friend's employer did was wrong. Regardless of whether or not the commonly accepted meaning for the symbol means one thing or another is irrelavant because in his usage for religious reasons there was no offense meant by or should be taken from the symbol which is a valid religious symbol with no negative connotation.

She played for the angels
I played for the tribe
The summer had been stolen and the bases were all loaded
There was big Money on the line
Big money all the time yeah
There was big MONEY ON THE LINE
I can't walk so I guess I'm gonna stay at home
They can have my legs just leave my head alone
I was in the kitchen
The year was in the fall
A friend of mine had told me that theRE WERE NO POINT IN MOPIN'
No there were no point at all
There was big fire in the hall yeah
There weren't no points at all
I can't walk so I guess I'm gonna stay at home
They can have my legs just leave my head alone
And I can't talk so I guess I got nothin' to say
I'll keep my eyes just take these tears away
Lock stOck AnD barrel all the dogs were gone TO FERAL and the car ran like a broken perculator
His liver had gone hard and he wouldn't mow the yard
There was big MONEY ON THE LINE
And I heard that his brother was a pikey
He liked to sOLVE a problem with a gun
If you want to know the facts you gotta teach him how to act
And I hate cough syrup don't you
I'd rather be a sailor than a fighter
I'd like to sail a ship into the sun
If you wanna know the truth you gotta dig up Johnny BooTH
And I hate cough syrup don't you
I know that your mother is a MARTYR
I heard she's got connections with the mob
If you wanna learn the fight you gotta drink up all the light
And I hate cough syrup don't you
I'd rather be a matchstick than a lighter
I LIKE TO SEE THE WOOD CURL UP AND BURN
If you wanna touch the sky you must be prepared to die
And I hate cough syrup don't you
I hate cough syrup and I hate THE FOOD IN EUROPE
And I hate cough syrup it's TRUE
You wanna know the truth you gotta dig up Johnny BooTH
And I hate cough syrup don't you
I hate cough syrup it's TRUE

 

[Shemtov]

No, he's a member of the Red Swastika Society, which is a charitable organization, similar to the Red Cross or Red Crescent

ding ding

100%

and you forgot to compare them to the Magen David Adom

 

[SLVRSR4]

I go with the gang mentality and think the swastika is bad.

 

[EXT.23]

Pop Quiz:
Is this guy a nazi?:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/af/Photo_of_rss_member.jpg

amazing to see how many times they don't spell "Taoist" correctly

 

[Shemtov]

amazing to see how many times they don't spell "Taoist" correctly

"Daoist" was an old-fashined way of spelling taoist. like peking is now bejeing.

 

[[A]]

but yeah, it's a logo.....with a bad connotation. it shouldn't be used (unless you're an idiot). I remember this girl, who had an avvy with a swastika made of kittens. she'd say hey, it's made of kittens! it's cute! :facepalm

 

[Majic Walrus]

She played for the angels
I played for the tribe
The summer had been stolen and the bases were all loaded
There was big Money on the line
Big money all the time yeah
There was big MONEY ON THE LINE
I can't walk so I guess I'm gonna stay at home
They can have my legs just leave my head alone
I was in the kitchen
The year was in the fall
A friend of mine had told me that theRE WERE NO POINT IN MOPIN'
No there were no point at all
There was big fire in the hall yeah
There weren't no points at all
I can't walk so I guess I'm gonna stay at home
They can have my legs just leave my head alone
And I can't talk so I guess I got nothin' to say
I'll keep my eyes just take these tears away
Lock stOck AnD barrel all the dogs were gone TO FERAL and the car ran like a broken perculator
His liver had gone hard and he wouldn't mow the yard
There was big MONEY ON THE LINE
And I heard that his brother was a pikey
He liked to sOLVE a problem with a gun
If you want to know the facts you gotta teach him how to act
And I hate cough syrup don't you
I'd rather be a sailor than a fighter
I'd like to sail a ship into the sun
If you wanna know the truth you gotta dig up Johnny BooTH
And I hate cough syrup don't you
I know that your mother is a MARTYR
I heard she's got connections with the mob
If you wanna learn the fight you gotta drink up all the light
And I hate cough syrup don't you
I'd rather be a matchstick than a lighter
I LIKE TO SEE THE WOOD CURL UP AND BURN
If you wanna touch the sky you must be prepared to die
And I hate cough syrup don't you
I hate cough syrup and I hate THE FOOD IN EUROPE
And I hate cough syrup it's TRUE
You wanna know the truth you gotta dig up Johnny BooTH
And I hate cough syrup don't you
I hate cough syrup it's TRUE

Sounds good to me. Glad we worked this out.

 

[Majic Walrus]

double post

 

[EXT.23]

"Daoist" was an old-fashined way of spelling taoist. like peking is now bejeing.

is that an old-fashioned way of spelling fashioned?

 

[moraldeficiency]

Sounds good to me. Glad we worked this out.

There is no problem in the verse that butthole surfer lyrics cannot solve.

 

[Majic Walrus]

There is no problem in the verse that butthole surfer lyrics cannot solve.

sig'd

 

[moraldeficiency]

sig'd

Awesome.