The Dark Knight Rises Talia for Batman 3?

[protoctista]

Not after Rachel died - it would be a bit cheap.

Yeah, if they'd established Selina in Batman Begins, and had Catwoman present in all three films, then a death in film 3 would be powerful. But to introduce her and kill her off in one film wouldn't leave enough time for Bruce and her to make a strong enough attachment for the audience to have an emotional pay off from a death.

 

[Quinzel]

Catwoman has been done
Tailia hasn't
Catwoman is kinda far fetched
Tailia isn't.



The end.

 

[protoctista]

^ Nice and stupid then

 

[Hobodeluxe]

^ Nice and stupid then

why the need to crap all over people? you're very condescending and dismissive.

 

[GregComicFan]

Why so serious?

:P

 

[GregComicFan]

Catwoman has been done
Tailia hasn't
Catwoman is kinda far fetched
Tailia isn't.



The end.

You know... I have to respectfully disagree. To be honest, I always found Ras Al Ghul's "League of Shadows" to be kinda corny. If you think of it as a terrorist group, it seems realistic.... but with a corny name like League of Shadows, and the fact that they're a band of ninjas.... hmmm... and they've been around for centuries and they claim to be the reason why every major civilization has crumbled....seems a bit far fetched to me.

No government knows about them?

They are a collection of all ethnicities and religions? (They didn't seem very monochromatic in the movie, nor a single-ethnicity)

Yeah, I think the League of Shadows can't claim to be un-far fetched... and Talia being in Batman 3 would mean the League of Shadows is back.

As for Catwoman....she's a master thief who just happens to just up like a cat? ok. the thief part is realistic. and Batman dresses up like a Bat, so if we already have Batman, then Catwoman should fit right in quite nicely.

I think Catwoman is more realistic and un-far fetched than the Globe-trotting, ninja-kung-fu world dominating League of Shadows.

Greg

 

[protoctista]

Catwoman has been done
Tailia hasn't

In that case lets have Clayface, Maxie Zeus, Calendar Man... and all the other crap vilains.
And lets not bother having the Joker and Two-face... they've been done before.

Catwoman is kinda far fetched
Tailia isn't.

How can you actually think that?

A thief that dresses up as a cat

A woman who runs a world-wide organisation of city-destroying ninjas and can resurrect by getting dunked in a pit of chemicals.

Fair enough if you think that Catwoman is far fetched, because after all every character in Batman's universe including Batman himself is far fetched verging on the ridiculous.

But to say that Talia isn't...

 

[protoctista]

The inclusion of Talia would, no matter how she was portrayed, be somewhat akin to a re-hash of Batman Begins. Why go with what we've already had? Yeah you can add the female angle and the sex appeal - but if that's what we want introduced, why not do it via the most important part of the mythos in this regard.

 

[Melkay]

For all those who think that Talia can fill in Catwoman's shoes (??!!!!), or that having Catwoman for the third film is silly, since we already had a love interest.... are you INSANE??
Do you remember the Bruc-Rachel relationship? Bruce putting all his eggs in one basket, a basket who happened to be his childhood friend... Bruce kissing her with still one hand in his pocket (a sign of a man who's too stiff to have a real relationship anyway)... Rachel condemning most of Bruce's actions, through BOTH MOVIES......

... and do you think for a moment that we're talking about the same kind of potential here? Do you think that a character like Catwoman in unrequired and redundant?


Catwoman is a quite obvious inclusion for the next movie. With Rachel out of the picture there is a vacant spot for a love story, and Batman now is completely isolated from the police... to have him have a LOVE-HATE relationship with a criminal (someone who doesn't kill, and just breaks the law without harming people) would create a very nice conflict.

She, like Batman, is a rogue character, and they're both pursued by the cops, even if they're not villains... she's a criminal, he's a vigilante, and that is ideal for a tense love-hate relationship.

Besides, a love relationship shouldn’t be a repetition of the dynamics between he and Rachel. Replaceable characters like Vicky Vale shouldn’t be used. Batman and Catwoman’s relationship is the perfect contrast to his ‘relationship’ with Rachel: Rachel was his anchor towards the Bruce persona… she was pulling him to a stable life, a life without a mask. Catwoman would be luring him to a life they both share, where nothing is stable, and there's always a mask. If he’s in loved with someone who has a life so similar to his, then he has no “hope for a normal life”. Catwoman is the catalyst for the perpetuation of the Batman persona.

What I find interesting about her is that she has the possibility of talking with Batman and yet appealing to Bruce Wayne. She can crack the emotional barrier given by his mask, his voice, his whole alter ego. And those are the moments when whe wee a fallible human being under that mask (just like when he beated the hell out of the Joker as soon as he mentioned Rachel). The moments I enjoy Catwoman the most is when she makes Batman doubt about what he really wants. They both should have leading roles, but she should still be a criminal… an outcast like he is, only that she doesn’t respect the Law at all. She finds delight in breaking the Law, and actually believe that she does is the right thing. The movie can greatly benefit from an ambiguous characters like her. She steals from the rich to stress the economic and social differences. That's her code.

And the effects she provokes in Batman cannot be done by any other character. After adding the Joker, I think the only way to completely depict the basics of the Bat-world is to add Catwoman. Without the ambiguity of Catwoman, I don’t think the Bat-verse will be complete.


p.s. by the way, Hobodeluxe, I've read your posts in this thread, and though I think you believe in what you say, your ideas are not well meditated.... and that lends itself to condescending and dismissive replies. Think well what you're writing before complaining about mockery.

 

[Ronny Shade]

The problem with catwoman is this:

In Nolan's universe, she's tame. Innocent even. A cat burglar is hardly worth Batman's time when he's dealing with anarchists, organized crime and homicidal maniacs.

In order for Catwoman to work she needs to be on the other side of the line from Batman. Take traditional Catwoman and plop her in this universe, and that dynamic isn't there. She doesn't really do anything less moral than what Batman does in the name of his crusade.

The ways to fix this would be:
1) make Catwoman a killer
2) make Catwoman part of someone else's scheme, using her burglary skills to steal Wayne-tech secrets
3) lose the hero-loves-villain dynamic and make her a vigilante.

All of these solutions have their problems.

 

[GregComicFan]

Batman and Catwoman’s relationship is the perfect contrast to his ‘relationship’ with Rachel: Rachel was his anchor towards the Bruce persona… she was pulling him to a stable life, a life without a mask. Catwoman would be luring him to a life they both share, where nothing is stable, and there's always a mask. If he’s in loved with someone who has a life so similar to his, then he has no “hope for a normal life”. Catwoman is the catalyst for the perpetuation of the Batman persona.

WOW! they should use what you wrote as actual dialogue in Batman 3. Alfred should say this to Bruce when speaking of Selina. It's a great catch-all and philosophical summary of the what Catwoman brings to the table.

 

[Ronny Shade]

WOW! they should use what you wrote as actual dialogue in Batman 3. Alfred should say this to Bruce when speaking of Selina. It's a great catch-all and philosophical summary of the what Catwoman brings to the table.

That way the movie can be sure to sound like a bad episode of smallville.

 

[Melkay]

The problem with catwoman is this:

In Nolan's universe, she's tame. Innocent even. A cat burglar is hardly worth Batman's time when he's dealing with anarchists, organized crime and homicidal maniacs.

In order for Catwoman to work she needs to be on the other side of the line from Batman. Take traditional Catwoman and plop her in this universe, and that dynamic isn't there. She doesn't really do anything less moral than what Batman does in the name of his crusade.

The ways to fix this would be:
1) make Catwoman a killer
2) make Catwoman part of someone else's scheme, using her burglary skills to steal Wayne-tech secrets
3) lose the hero-loves-villain dynamic and make her a vigilante.

All of these solutions have their problems.

Are you kidding? Which is the problem of the 2nd option. Many times she has worked for someone else and STILL maintained her own agenda. Yes, her skills can be put in service to a number a other villains. She is a master thief, after all, and there are many important things that she can do for others...

Stealing important technological creations from Lucius Fox...
Acceding to Wayne Enterprises's secret and now destroyed bat-sonar...

But she's known for double-crossing her partners in crime... sh'e quite roguish. And she can reveal to have plans for herself...

What about deviating billions of dollars from Gotham's major companies? Did you see the viral marketing for TDK? In Gotham Tonight, they stressed once how W.E., if collapsed, would bring down Gotham's economical foundations. And in the light of today's events, we know that is not so wacko after all.

What about setaling information, weapons, technology... from very rich elite people, or very rich mobsters... and then holding those things for ransom? Or stealing funds and then rellocating them for her own interests (i.e. giving them away to a number of good causes).

I can see Catwoman doing that. And even if she doesn't have an ulterior plan (and she should) if things like those go to the hands of the film's main threat, things can get ugly.

No, I don't Catwoman should be the main villain, but I don't think she should be an ally, or a vigilante. As a master thief, and still in a similar place to Bruce's (good person trying to do good by the wrong means) they're still on different sides of the line. She's not a vigilante... she doesn't care for punishing criminals, she cares for those who are protected by the system and (as she sees it) contribute to the ruin of Gotham... rich people.

I find Nolan’s way of playing with the notions of Right&Wrong very appealing. So, I'm all the way for subverting things like Law And Order and Crime World. See, Edward Nygma would be a Federal Agent, a law enforcer, and yet he's driven by petty obsessions and his actions would raise no empathy at all from the audience. He's designed to push away Batman further from the Law.

Catwoman is the counter-proposition. She's a woman who’s interesting and attractive and, deep inside, holds an Ideal... Maybe she has a past related to poverty and misery and now she's still in touch with the less fortunate citizens of Gotham. Maybe through charity, maybe through friends she's trying to help with no so conventional means. She would be an empathetic character, BUT still a criminal. She would pull Batman further into the world of being a rogue character… of being an outcast. That's her function.

Plus, giving Selina an unfortunate background (poverty, or maybe some kind of personal tragedy, not as great as Bruce's, of course) could give her a very nice subtext. She's a thief, after all, so she doesn't deal with people's lives and their psychology (like the Joker, or the Scarecrow).
What she deals with is people's possessions. She steals stuff, for her and maybe for others. To give her some kind of connection with Gotham’s less fortunate (maybe old friends; maybe a younger sister who was adopted when they were both orphans; maybe she's involved in some kind of charity system) would provide her character some great contrast. And her intentions need to be rendered good, so the audience can empathize more with her.

I think the Economic issues would be a nice sub-theme for the next movie, just like Terrorism and Counter-terrorism worked as a great subtext in TDK. In the sequel, Batman is a complete outcast, and Selina, being a criminal who steals mostly from rich people and institutions, is obviously an outcast too. They both break the Law. They both see themselves as some kind of harmonizer for the city. And they will be both attracted to each other. Imagine the public's reaction when they see Batman having a soft hand with that infamous cat burglar. His image would further deteriorate (that's one of the reasons I believe that Bullock should be in the next movie, to portray better those feelings of distrust towards the Batman).

So, yeah, I’d like a Selina that has some kind of ties to the poor people of Gotham (they are outcasts, in their own way). As I said, she can show Bruce the holes of that Batman persona he has made for himself. How he isn’t helping all the people he can. And she can inspire him to handle his public persona in a more productive way. After meeting Selina and her charities, Bruce may want to follow his father steps and be more of a Philanthropist. A good headline: “The New Bruce Wayne: A Philanthropist?” Well, he should be. His parents were that for Gotham and he needs to reinvigorate that sense of pride. He needs to accept himself once again.

If that's not an interesting relationship dynamic, I don't know what is.

Plus, imagine the repercussions of such themes when economic concerns growing larger in America and the world. I would really want to see the Nolan's take in that.

 

[Melkay]

WOW! they should use what you wrote as actual dialogue in Batman 3. Alfred should say this to Bruce when speaking of Selina. It's a great catch-all and philosophical summary of the what Catwoman brings to the table.

That way the movie can be sure to sound like a bad episode of smallville.

Thank you Greg, but I gotta agree with Ronny here. I'd like the idea to be present in the film, but words in dialogue should be much more subtle. With Jonah Nolan's talent, it could be the next "some men just want to watch the world burn"

 

[Ronny Shade]

Any other day, Melkay, I'd love to point-by-point that whole post. for now I'll say this:

Catwoman is never going to be so good at stealing things that she'd be working in industrial espionage. Hacking, diverting funds, stealing classified technology, this stuff is all either not in character (sitting at a computer) or requires a group of moral-less individuals. Big schemers and terrorists make absolutely sure their pawns are 100% dedicated before they would entrust them an important mission. Unless we depict a mastermind who is actually no knowing what to do trying to coerce someone into doing something that isn't particularly a good idea, but that's asking for farce, and we've already seen the Catwoman/Penguin team.

Catwoman is to me a very personal thief. Even when she works for others, it's for her. For the thrill. She works alone, she loves a challenge, but she doesn't do things that will be impossible. She'll steal jewels from a mobster's wife sort of thing, but having a team of technicians and merceneries to back her up on a complex heist (which is what you'd need to break into applied sciences, or whatever...think the first M:I film) doesn't really seem her style. The only way to do it is have her prancing through laser beams and making off with a computer disk of weapons designs.

It could work, sure, but the caliber of villain presented in the Nolanverse is too boundariless. Whoever is planning to hijack classified wayne-tech secrets, would be willing to do whatever is necessary to get what they want. This seems to be a running theme. The good guys have rules, the bad guys don't. Catwoman isn't a whatever-is-necessary type of gal. And she's never going to be so good at what she does as to be irreplaceable.

Good drama comes from when people have to deal with each other to get what they want. A master villain would need to NEED catwoman for this to work. like she has super-powers or something.

I feel like the only way to make Cats and Bats at odds is to have her rob Wayne the same way she robs any old rich fool or gangster. In her head, they deserve it. But this is so small scale it wouldn't fit into a epic third movie conclusion plot.

Again, I'm not ruling anything out, this is just how I see it.

 

[Melkay]

Catwoman is never going to be so good at stealing things that she'd be working in industrial espionage. Hacking, diverting funds, stealing classified technology, this stuff is all either not in character (sitting at a computer) or requires a group of moral-less individuals.

Sorry, but I fail to see this as an inconvenient. I get your point, we are not used to see Catwoman doing these kinds of things, but she can sit at a computer, why not? As long as she’s been instructed on how to crack a certain mainframe (Zeta-Jones did it in Entrapment, is it that hard?) she can sit briefly on a computer. Besides, she can collaborate with a team. I’ve thought about this before, and I think that she working on a team very early on the movie is not that preposterous. I didn’t like that idea because it’s too similar to the bank heist opening in TDK, but differences can be set.

Big schemers and terrorists make absolutely sure their pawns are 100% dedicated before they would entrust them an important mission. Unless we depict a mastermind who is actually no knowing what to do trying to coerce someone into doing something that isn't particularly a good idea, but that's asking for farce, and we've already seen the Catwoman/Penguin team.

She can be preparing for years to enter a certain team for a one time job, a la Reservoir Dogs. Of course, once she gets away with the loot, some boss is going to put a reward for her head, but if she’s intelligent enough she can avoid this. Faking ID’s and living alternative lives before the job can’t be too hard for Selina. Especially if she works with other already as Catwoman, or the rest of the team (boss included) ends in jail.

But yeah, certainly a gal like her would have many enemies, and very powerful ones.

Catwoman is to me a very personal thief. Even when she works for others, it's for her. For the thrill. She works alone, she loves a challenge, but she doesn't do things that will be impossible. She'll steal jewels from a mobster's wife sort of thing, but having a team of technicians and merceneries to back her up on a complex heist (which is what you'd need to break into applied sciences, or whatever...think the first M:I film) doesn't really seem her style. The only way to do it is have her prancing through laser beams and making off with a computer disk of weapons designs.

But you already stressed how the personal stuff is not enough for having a relevant place in a Nolan film. Changes will have to come undoubtedly. She won’t be able to work alone AT LEAST on one big job. She’ll have to do minor heists alone that may or may not be only for the thrill. Maybe those little jobs are only to gain means to strike a much bigger hit. Those are the changes.

It could work, sure, but the caliber of villain presented in the Nolanverse is too boundariless. Whoever is planning to hijack classified wayne-tech secrets, would be willing to do whatever is necessary to get what they want. This seems to be a running theme. The good guys have rules, the bad guys don't. Catwoman isn't a whatever-is-necessary type of gal. And she's never going to be so good at what she does as to be irreplaceable.

And she’ll have rules too: Trust no one; keep no allies. And (maybe) never to kill. I think she can the best in her field, as long as she’s the last man (or woman) standing. At some point she will have to cooperate, and she’s probably going to profit on the work of others. That still leaves plenty of room for a movie where she does several jobs alone, and there’s still plenty to do in that way (think of the Fox in Ocean’s Twelve). But a compromise must be attained between staying in familiar grounds and honoring Nolan’s particular brand of ‘realism’.

 

[Ronny Shade]

Sorry, but I fail to see this as an inconvenient. I get your point, we are not used to see Catwoman doing these kinds of things, but she can sit at a computer, why not? As long as she’s been instructed on how to crack a certain mainframe (Zeta-Jones did it in Entrapment, is it that hard?) she can sit briefly on a computer. Besides, she can collaborate with a team. I’ve thought about this before, and I think that she working on a team very early on the movie is not that preposterous. I didn’t like that idea because it’s too similar to the bank heist opening in TDK, but differences can be set.

Yes, it all depends on the way you write the character. It comes down to what you want to see. Ideally, Batman would have started off small and Catwoman would have been a jewel thief that Batman stopped and then she has a thing for foiling Batman, so her projects get bigger and bigger and she's willing to sit through things like computer hacking and working with experts to get Batsy's attention. That's probably how I would write her. They didn't have the time to do a build up like this, though.

She can be preparing for years to enter a certain team for a one time job, a la Reservoir Dogs. Of course, once she gets away with the loot, some boss is going to put a reward for her head, but if she’s intelligent enough she can avoid this. Faking ID’s and living alternative lives before the job can’t be too hard for Selina. Especially if she works with other already as Catwoman, or the rest of the team (boss included) ends in jail.

But yeah, certainly a gal like her would have many enemies, and very powerful ones.

For a big payoff or a big thrill? Roth's character in resevoir dogs had a job to do. It was a duty thing. As a detective its his job to go undercover and get evidence on these guys, not only that but its a crusade typeof motivation. If we give this to Selina, she becomes a vigilante. If we don't we aren't going to buy that she spent years of her do-what-I-want-all-the-time life for a payoff or the thrill of being part of a terrorist organization. It's not like she can't make money doing smaller jobs, robbing mobsters or museums

I like the on the run with new identities bit. Could be she got caught up in something when she was in her late teens/early twenties, didn't know what she was doing and she had to heist her way out of trouble. Also gives a reason for her to wear a mask.

But you already stressed how the personal stuff is not enough for having a relevant place in a Nolan film. Changes will have to come undoubtedly. She won’t be able to work alone AT LEAST on one big job. She’ll have to do minor heists alone that may or may not be only for the thrill. Maybe those little jobs are only to gain means to strike a much bigger hit. Those are the changes.

That where I'm saying the problem lies. To me (this is a preference thing) it fits Catwoman's character more to have ner not be involved in big ****. but there was that "getting out of trouble" idea I mentioned earlier.

And she’ll have rules too: Trust no one; keep no allies. And (maybe) never to kill. I think she can the best in her field, as long as she’s the last man (or woman) standing. At some point she will have to cooperate, and she’s probably going to profit on the work of others. That still leaves plenty of room for a movie where she does several jobs alone, and there’s still plenty to do in that way (think of the Fox in Ocean’s Twelve). But a compromise must be attained between staying in familiar grounds and honoring Nolan’s particular brand of ‘realism’.

Those rules are exactly the kind of rules that will keep her out of an organization like the one that Batman would most likely be facing in BB3.
What are the possibilities...League of Shadows, Black Mask's mob, Joker cultists? We've seen the LoS requires killing for entry. Black Mask is known for being a brutal ****er, am I right? And Joker cultists...why? Anarchy doesn't pay.

You mentioned the Oceans 11 movies. Those films...and groups like that are fundamentally about trust. If the payers don't trust each other, it'll never work. This goes against one of your rules for her. And I like those rules! They're very in character, and she could struggle with trusting /loving Batman against her trust rule.

Back to the organizations: Its not that she wouldn't be able to fake her way into one of these groups...but why would she want to? Subservience is so fundamentally contrary to her nature. Unless she really cared about the cause, she not going to dedicate herself that fully and make sacrifices to be in one of those groups.


That brings me to the other option...which is give her a big issue to care about. TAS did it with animal rights. Again, however that seems kind of tame in the Nolanverse.

 

[Melkay]

Yes, it all depends on the way you write the character. It comes down to what you want to see. Ideally, Batman would have started off small and Catwoman would have been a jewel thief that Batman stopped and then she has a thing for foiling Batman, so her projects get bigger and bigger and she's willing to sit through things like computer hacking and working with experts to get Batsy's attention. That's probably how I would write her. They didn't have the time to do a build up like this, though.

I don't think I've ever seen any story where Catwoman does anything only to atract Batman's attention. Not even in TLH, because later we discover that she was doing it to find out about her family origins. Basically, her crimes are all about getting things for herself, not about bringing out the Bat. She's not like the Riddler, the Joker, etc. She has a great interest in Batman, but she has the upper hand in their relationship (like most women in most unfulfilled relationships ) . I don't think she cares about foiling Bats except when Bats gets in her plans.

But if that's your vision then it's a fine, valid one. However, you've already acknowledged that Nolan's films are not recipients of each ideal version out there. A compromise must be achieved. That's what I'm talking about.

For a big payoff or a big thrill? Roth's character in resevoir dogs had a job to do. It was a duty thing. As a detective its his job to go undercover and get evidence on these guys, not only that but its a crusade typeof motivation. If we give this to Selina, she becomes a vigilante. If we don't we aren't going to buy that she spent years of her do-what-I-want-all-the-time life for a payoff or the thrill of being part of a terrorist organization. It's not like she can't make money doing smaller jobs, robbing mobsters or museums.

Vigilantism is one thing and being on a crusade it's another. Crusades, even in the form of crimes, always have an ideological reason behind. A terrorists could be on a crusade. But vigilantism is about punishing people beyond outside of the Law. Those are two different things. Mr. Orange (Roth's character) was a mole with a moral reason to drive him through all the risks of the job, but he was inside the Law. Batman commits certain crimes to bring people to Justice. He is a true vigilante. But Gambol, for example, wanted to catch the Joker and 'teach some manners', and he was only a criminal. He was satisfying his personal desires. It's a very fine line.


The Catwoman I want has an ideology behind some things she does. She doesn't just steal... she steals from powerful people. Why? Many reasons... the thrill is one of them, but she also does it because she thinks rich people don't deserve what they have... and she wouldn't steal from, say, a struggling working mom in an alley.
Basically, her method has three results: big payoff, big thrill and big moral drive. And that's why it's so hard to pin her, to pidgeonhole her into one group... she's part criminal, part vigilante, part 'just doing it for the thrills' (something quite similar to the Joker).

And that's what makes her the ultimate rogue character.

I like the on the run with new identities bit. Could be she got caught up in something when she was in her late teens/early twenties, didn't know what she was doing and she had to heist her way out of trouble. Also gives a reason for her to wear a mask.

I would love that reason. Fits in with the 'troubled origins' idea.
(it also sounds a lot like Sawyer from LOST)

That where I'm saying the problem lies. To me (this is a preference thing) it fits Catwoman's character more to have ner not be involved in big ****. but there was that "getting out of trouble" idea I mentioned earlier.

Yes, it is a preference thing. I don't see her as a character that would settler with litte-to-average heists. She should aim at the biggest job... as I see her. You're right, it is a subjective thing.
But the troubled origin feels right to me. If she had a complicated youth, she may have grown thinking that people gets into criminal lives out of desperation... and she's doing some 'redistribution of wealth' through crime (a wrong thing to do). To her, misery is the no.1 reason for crime, and she's cleansing Gotham in her own way... Batman's way is nice, but it's not the whole package. She's not only punishing those who profit on crime, but alos those who are way up high, because in order to eradicate crime in Gotham, misery must be eradicated first.

Those rules are exactly the kind of rules that will keep her out of an organization like the one that Batman would most likely be facing in BB3.
What are the possibilities...League of Shadows, Black Mask's mob, Joker cultists? We've seen the LoS requires killing for entry. Black Mask is known for being a brutal ****er, am I right? And Joker cultists...why? Anarchy doesn't pay.

Here comes the Penguin (or some other big mobster), a very rich guy who gathers the best in the job to steal money and technology for him. After all, he may be an arms dealer. And entering such teams doesn't have high requirements. A robber doesn't need to kill.

Remember, working with a group doesn't mean she BELIEVES in the group's ideals. She just works with them to get things she can't get for herself, and then she leaves them behind. Maybe they all get in jail after that. Selina is an expert double-crosser.

You mentioned the Oceans 11 movies. Those films...and groups like that are fundamentally about trust. If the payers don't trust each other, it'll never work. This goes against one of your rules for her. And I like those rules! They're very in character, and she could struggle with trusting /loving Batman against her trust rule.

I agree, but that's not what I was saying. I was talking about the Fox in Ocean's Twelve, a master thief who works alone and was always a step ahead of the title team. That should work... a little more grounded in reality, of course.

Back to the organizations: Its not that she wouldn't be able to fake her way into one of these groups...but why would she want to? Subservience is so fundamentally contrary to her nature. Unless she really cared about the cause, she not going to dedicate herself that fully and make sacrifices to be in one of those groups.

To strike big hits, one needs to make certain compromises... sacrifice certain principles, at least temporarily. She must understand this.

That brings me to the other option...which is give her a big issue to care about. TAS did it with animal rights. Again, however that seems kind of tame in the Nolanverse.

I thought I was clear about it... her cause is helping poor people, and charity work. Nothing to do with animals but with poor people.

It's funny that we're discussing more about Catwoman here than in the Catwoman main thread.

 

[BatJeff7786]

She would be the main protagonist. Pretending to be a corporate rival of Bruce's. Seducing him. Getting pregnant. Then using that (and his success in reigning the "Sons of the Batman" vigilante type gang) to try and blackmail him into taking over the league of shadows in Ra's absence. I can hear her argument now " You are a leader my beloved" "I saw the way you handled that gang." With your leadership the League of Shadows could become an international force for good"

(it's a trap Ra's is actually alive)

:facepalm

 

[Ronny Shade]

I don't think I've ever seen any story where Catwoman does anything only to atract Batman's attention. Not even in TLH, because later we discover that she was doing it to find out about her family origins. Basically, her crimes are all about getting things for herself, not about bringing out the Bat. She's not like the Riddler, the Joker, etc. She has a great interest in Batman, but she has the upper hand in their relationship (like most women in most unfulfilled relationships ) . I don't think she cares about foiling Bats except when Bats gets in her plans.

I'm already starting to dislike parts of that idea, myself. But if you asked me write a Catwoman story yesterday that's what I would have done.

But if that's your vision then it's a fine, valid one. However, you've already acknowledged that Nolan's films are not recipients of each ideal version out there. A compromise must be achieved. That's what I'm talking about.

The problem with "ideal" is its different for everyone. I've got six or seven "ideal" batman movie ideas bouncing around in my head, none of which are compatible with the others.

Vigilantism

is one thing and being on a crusade it's another. Crusades, even in the form of crimes, always have an ideological reason behind. A terrorists could be on a crusade. But vigilantism is about punishing people beyond outside of the Law. Those are two different things. Mr. Orange (Roth's character) was a mole with a moral reason to drive him through all the risks of the job, but he was inside the Law. Batman commits certain crimes to bring people to Justice. He is a true vigilante. But Gambol, for example, wanted to catch the Joker and 'teach some manners', and he was only a criminal. He was satisfying his personal desires. It's a very fine line.

Catwoman seems in between. Stealing from the rich and corrupt because they don't deserve it? Could call it vigilantism. Could call it something else.

The Catwoman I want has an ideology behind some things she does. She doesn't just steal... she steals from powerful people. Why? Many reasons... the thrill is one of them, but she also does it because she thinks rich people don't deserve what they have... and she wouldn't steal from, say, a struggling working mom in an alley.
Basically, her method has three results: big payoff, big thrill and big moral drive. And that's why it's so hard to pin her, to pidgeonhole her into one group... she's part criminal, part vigilante, part 'just doing it for the thrills' (something quite similar to the Joker).

I'm starting to get the idea that cats would join up with this vague evil group I've been talking about and play them all...like you've been talking about, not for thrill or the score so much as to teach them all a lesson. Same reason she steals from rich *******s. These guys have it all and they don't deserve it. That way Batman can think she's a villain until she reveals at the end that she's just been messing with them and is going to make off with their money.

The problem with that is that she's the hero and Batman isn't really doing jack in the story. Also, there's no tragic ending to their relationship at the end of the film if she's revealed as a hero.

This could be fixed with Catwoman failing to pull off what she's trying to do. OR by roping Batman into it and playing him as well (or both).

I would love that reason. Fits in with the 'troubled origins' idea.
(it also sounds a lot like Sawyer from LOST)

Or Kate. Kate is sexier

Yes, it is a preference thing. I don't see her as a character that would settler with litte-to-average heists. She should aim at the biggest job... as I see her. You're right, it is a subjective thing.

Depends whether or not we think Selina gets off by messing with people's heads. That was kind of the Joker's thing. It would also be the Riddler's thing, so I'll vote against it. I think she'd get off by "showing up" people who've got the advantages of wealth and power that don't necessarily deserve them. Yes, this could include major heists.

But the troubled origin feels right to me. If she had a complicated youth, she may have grown thinking that people gets into criminal lives out of desperation... and she's doing some 'redistribution of wealth' through crime (a wrong thing to do). To her, misery is the no.1 reason for crime, and she's cleansing Gotham in her own way... Batman's way is nice, but it's not the whole package. She's not only punishing those who profit on crime, but alos those who are way up high, because in order to eradicate crime in Gotham, misery must be eradicated first.

Problem with troubled origin is its been done to death. Doesn't mean it can be done right (Nolans have a way of doing that). Also, make sure they don't make her a hooker or the fans will have a fit.

Here comes the Penguin (or some other big mobster), a very rich guy who gathers the best in the job to steal money and technology for him. After all, he may be an arms dealer. And entering such teams doesn't have high requirements. A robber doesn't need to kill.

Entering such teams in this hightened dangerous very malicious world that Nolan has created, I think, would require killing though. We've seen this world as one where the bar for theft is basically that heist in the beginnig of TDK. You've got to be willing to blow someone's brains out to compete. Catwoman, if she's working alone, could set her own rules like no killing but somebody like the penguin isn't going to get anywhere in the gotham crime world without being totally brutal.

Of course, he could have a soft spot for Selina and doesn't want to make her kill people. It could work.

Remember, working with a group doesn't mean she BELIEVES in the group's ideals. She just works with them to get things she can't get for herself, and then she leaves them behind. Maybe they all get in jail after that. Selina is an expert double-crosser.

Yeah, but like I said before, if she just double crosses everyone, whats there left for Batman to do?

I agree, but that's not what I was saying. I was talking about the Fox in Ocean's Twelve, a master thief who works alone and was always a step ahead of the title team. That should work... a little more grounded in reality, of course.

To be honest, I think I fell asleep in that movie. I didn't really understand what was going on.

To strike big hits, one needs to make certain compromises... sacrifice certain principles, at least temporarily. She must understand this.

Obviously. But I don't think we want her compromising on not killing people, do we? Maybe we do.

I thought I was clear about it... her cause is helping poor people, and charity work. Nothing to do with animals but with poor people.

Animals could work too. That's how they introduced her in the cartoon. But yeah, I prefer the robin hood thing.

It's funny that we're discussing more about Catwoman here than in the Catwoman main thread.

Ehhh, the Catwoman thread sucks. It's just a bunch of underwear pictures and "who's sexy" talk.


Sorry if my points aren't more unwavering. I'm trying to work out Catwoman in my head as we're discussing all this, so I'm bound to change my mind more than a few times.

 

[strider]

wow didn't know you'd take it personally. as for the bad science we've had a motorcycle that is a physics nightmare. but it looks cool and looks like it could come out of the Tumbler so they went with it despite the fact that it corners like a tractor trailer.
We've got gliderwings that would snap a man's shoulders upon their deployment. A car that's light as air and can jump from rooftop to rooftop without caving any of them in. a grappling winch that can lift two adults rapidly and seems to require no power supply. it would take some fairly large batteries to pull that off.

you have no problem with those and yet something so misunderstood as the brain and memories you can't rationalize? what are memories? chemical combinations stored in cells? like bits on a hd? Do you really think the ordinary non anal-retentive fan would have trouble with it? Seriously you have no problem with cloning an adult but the memory transfer is hanging you up? seriously? Or do you just not want Ra's again and you're nitpicking?

Best old post I've read today.

You now have a new #1 fan, Sir.

 

[Melkay]

I agree with most of what you said here, so I'm only going to reply to the parts where I have a different opinion...

I'm starting to get the idea that cats would join up with this vague evil group I've been talking about and play them all...like you've been talking about, not for thrill or the score so much as to teach them all a lesson. Same reason she steals from rich *******s. These guys have it all and they don't deserve it. That way Batman can think she's a villain until she reveals at the end that she's just been messing with them and is going to make off with their money.

The problem with that is that she's the hero and Batman isn't really doing jack in the story. Also, there's no tragic ending to their relationship at the end of the film if she's revealed as a hero.

I respectfully disagree. There is an ending, and a very tragic one... she may be doing something that is essentially well-intended, but a crime nonetheless. And Batman is in Gotham to stop criminals... he can't break his code right now. And if he falters, or hesitates, he will get the distrust of many citizens, even from allies like Jim Gordon. Isn't she a criminal? Then she must be stopped. But that's also what he is...
By the end of TDK, Batman hasn't gained yet a good understanding of the gray areas of his work, and the true nature of criminals. "Criminals are simple" he says, not realizing the full extent of the world he's fighting. With Catwoman, he may find things he may not want to fight.
And Bruce is not still the philantropist his father was. He's too concerned with the spoiled playboy facade and doesn't realize how following his father's steps could help Gotham in ways he hasn't foreseen yet. Catwoman may remember him what Rachel told him in BB... the city grows corrupt because its less fortunate citizens grow desperate. And he needs to become a philantropist, and inspiration for other rich people to contribute to Gotham's future, to donate to good causes... to help, instead of just not doing anything.

But, despite all these good things Catwoman brings to Bruce's development, she's still a criminal, and she must be imprisoned. She may loose control of her own rules, she may just be too judgemental of some of her targets for robberies... but no matter how grey it looks, she's still wrong. She's still a thief. And Batman knows he must stop her. Why? Because he's Batman, and that's his job. He may like her, love her, admire her, but she's still a criminal setting the wrong kind of example.

To me, that's quite bittersweet... in a better shape, it can be as tragic as it comes.

This could be fixed with Catwoman failing to pull off what she's trying to do. OR by roping Batman into it and playing him as well (or both).

Could be. I think there are many more options. I don't remember who I was arguing with about in which way Catwoman could lose control of herself. I think it was Protoctista, and it was a good debate. Catwoman can become a undisputed villain in many many ways.

Depends whether or not we think Selina gets off by messing with people's heads. That was kind of the Joker's thing. It would also be the Riddler's thing, so I'll vote against it. I think she'd get off by "showing up" people who've got the advantages of wealth and power that don't necessarily deserve them. Yes, this could include major heists.

That's what I meant.

Problem with troubled origin is its been done to death. Doesn't mean it can be done right (Nolans have a way of doing that). Also, make sure they don't make her a hooker or the fans will have a fit.

No hooker. Orphan, maybe an ill sister, maybe some bad neighborhood with some childhood friends still living there, leading bad lives in gangs. Who knows? I dislike the prostitution angle so much I've become allergic to it.

Entering such teams in this heightened dangerous very malicious world that Nolan has created, I think, would require killing though. We've seen this world as one where the bar for theft is basically that heist in the beginnig of TDK. You've got to be willing to blow someone's brains out to compete. Catwoman, if she's working alone, could set her own rules like no killing but somebody like the penguin isn't going to get anywhere in the gotham crime world without being totally brutal.

Of course, he could have a soft spot for Selina and doesn't want to make her kill people. It could work.

And what about faking a murder? Or being too good to be tested. I don't know how cautious are some of Gotham mob bosses. Remember Gambol benig fooled by the Joker "corpse" trick. There are many clever ways to get past their measures, and these new freaks are indeed creative.

Yeah, but like I said before, if she just double crosses everyone, whats there left for Batman to do?

Stop her from doing the same to the good guys, or doing really terrible things to the bad ones... thee may be a point where Catwoman may be so hurt that she can drop her rules and decide to kill someone. In that moment, Bats will be needed.

To be honest, I think I fell asleep in that movie. I didn't really understand what was going on.

It was weird, I give you that, but entertainment quality have nothing to do with what I'm talking about.... there was a guy who worked alone and was always one step ahead of them. You should rewatch the film.

Obviously. But I don't think we want her compromising on not killing people, do we? Maybe we do.

My problem is that I don't think she would need to kill people to get what she wants. Murder is not in her list. A some point, maybe as a vendetta; maybe someone hits her where it hurts and she wants payback... but normally, my ideal Catwoman wouldn't kill. It wouldn't make sense to her... due to her skills, she wouldn't even have to. She wouldn't even have to fight... as long as keeps avoiding her enemies and having great skills escapin Bats, her fighting abilities could be really minimal.

Ehhh, the Catwoman thread sucks. It's just a bunch of underwear pictures and "who's sexy" talk.

Agreed, but let's be fair, from time to time some good debate blossoms there. Very rarely of course. And some pics are not so so bad

Sorry if my points aren't more unwavering. I'm trying to work out Catwoman in my head as we're discussing all this, so I'm bound to change my mind more than a few times.

It's okay, we're actually on the same point here.

 

[chosen1]

I want talia so that they can Bring Ra's Back.

 

[The Guard]

Catwoman's portrayal is something Melkay and I agree on. She needs to operate outside the law, but not just for herlself. She very much needs to come from nothing, and been involved in something criminal and be a sort of female Robin Hood figure, but a tragic one overall. She's doing the wrong thing for all the right reasons. I don't think she should be a former hooker, but having ties to that sort of underworld wouldn't hurt one iota. I believe she should be involved with Leslie Thompkins and some local and charitable aspects, tying her to the idea that there is hope for Gotham's poorer sections. This would be her main drive, and maybe she could pull Bruce into this idea that Gotham can be saved by fighting the disease, not just the symptoms, since he doesn't appear too concerned with it thus far (Despite Rachel pointing it out to him in BEGINS). It's too bad there's not a more overt "Crime Alley" angle in the Nolanverse so far.

 

[Van Petrol]

Catwoman's portrayal is something Melkay and I agree on. She needs to operate outside the law, but not just for herlself. She very much needs to come from nothing, and been involved in something criminal and be a sort of female Robin Hood figure, but a tragic one overall. She's doing the wrong thing for all the right reasons. I don't think she should be a former hooker, but having ties to that sort of underworld wouldn't hurt one iota. I believe she should be involved with Leslie Thompkins and some local and charitable aspects, tying her to the idea that there is hope for Gotham's poorer sections. This would be her main drive, and maybe she could pull Bruce into this idea that Gotham can be saved by fighting the disease, not just the symptoms, since he doesn't appear too concerned with it thus far (Despite Rachel pointing it out to him in BEGINS). It's too bad there's not a more overt "Crime Alley" angle in the Nolanverse so far.

Indeed. That's an angle with a lot of potential that I also feel they have missed out on thus far.