The Agnostic Thread - Home of the Unsure

[Lantern Venom]

Really, agnostics are just atheists who use an asterisk to cover themselves in case one group of religious people somehow end up being right.

This seems like trolling. There is a huge difference in saying "We can't properly understand" and "no, there isn't". Agnosticism is actually a very large concept and, much like theism, covers several distinct viewpoints. It's wrong to just call it atheism in disguise.

 

[Doctor Evo]

Don't you mean deist? Then again I'm not sure I know what Hotwire is trying to say.

Maybe I should lay off the eggnog.

Deists are theists, are they not?

 

[Thundercrack85]

Deists are theists, are they not?

Not by the definitions I am familiar with. Theists believe in a creator, who intervenes and has some sort of relationship with its creations (so, old school religion, basically). While deists believe in some sort of creator / higher power, but said being does not interact with the physical world. The divine watchmaker in other words.

I was always taught that deism was a rejection of theism (or at least the intervention / relationship part), but Wikipedia seems to consider it a subcategory.

 

[Doctor Evo]

Not by the definitions I am familiar with. Theists believe in a creator, who intervenes and has some sort of relationship with its creations (so, old school religion, basically). While deists believe in some sort of creator / higher power, but said being does not interact with the physical world. The divine watchmaker in other words.

I've never heard of this definition. I don't believe that's technically accurate.

I was always taught that deism was a rejection of theism (or at least the intervention / relationship part), but Wikipedia seems to consider it a subcategory.

As do I.

 

[Thundercrack85]

This seems like trolling. There is a huge difference in saying "We can't properly understand" and "no, there isn't". Agnosticism is actually a very large concept and, much like theism, covers several distinct viewpoints. It's wrong to just call it atheism in disguise.

Trolling? Really? Agnosticism is soft atheism. It's simply implicit, rather than explicit.

Hard atheists say there is no God (or what have you), agnostics say they don't know, but at the end of the day, they both don't worship any deity.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I've never heard of this definition. I don't believe that's technically accurate.

As do I.

What would you accept as an authority on this subject?

Because if we're going by Wikipedia, then...

Theism, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists.[1] In a more specific sense, theism is commonly a monotheistic doctrine concerning the nature of a deity, and that deity's relationship to the universe.[2][3][4][5] Theism, in this specific sense, conceives of God as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe. As such theism describes the classical conception of God that is found in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Sikhism and Hinduism. The use of the word theism to indicate this classical form of monotheism began during the scientific revolution of the seventeenth century in order to distinguish it from the then-emerging deism which contended that God, though transcendent and supreme, did not intervene in the natural world and could be known rationally but not via revelation.[6]

But I'm open to whatever.

 

[Marvolo]

Really, agnostics are just atheists who use an asterisk to cover themselves in case one group of religious people somehow end up being right.

Well, this is some B.S. No personal offense meant, but you can't have met many agnostics if you think they are all closet athiest.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, this is some B.S. No personal offense meant, but you can't have met many agnostics if you think they are all closet athiest.

Read my response to... the gentleman above.

And I don't take offense that easily.

 

[Marvolo]

Trolling? Really? Agnosticism is soft atheism. It's simply implicit, rather than explicit.

Hard atheists say there is no God (or what have you), agnostics say they don't know, but at the end of the day, they both don't worship any deity.

Worship isn't necessary.

Im open to the idea of a god, gods, fate, higher being or beings (that is to say beings that are exponentially more evolved than we are both naturally and technologically. I get too much enjoyment from contemplating the possibilities to write it off entirely regardless of the vacuum of evidence for a higher power. I don't think a higher power micro manages us (watching our every minor deed and misconduct) nor do I think it would be magical in nature. And at the same time do to a lack of evidence im not gonna structure my life around a deity or higher being. I don't worship but that doesn't make me an atheist. Deists don't worship snd they believe in a god. And some pantheists don't worship either. Point is agnostics arent atheits-lite due to a lack of worship. Point of agnosticism is the person is not saying yes or no. They are open/indifferent to either a gods existence or non existence.

 

[Doctor Evo]

What would you accept as an authority on this subject?

Because if we're going by Wikipedia, then...

Theism, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists.[1] In a more specific sense, theism is commonly a monotheistic doctrine concerning the nature of a deity, and that deity's relationship to the universe.[2][3][4][5] Theism, in this specific sense, conceives of God as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe. As such theism describes the classical conception of God that is found in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Sikhism and Hinduism. The use of the word theism to indicate this classical form of monotheism began during the scientific revolution of the seventeenth century in order to distinguish it from the then-emerging deism which contended that God, though transcendent and supreme, did not intervene in the natural world and could be known rationally but not via revelation.[6]

But I'm open to whatever.

Wikipedia is fine by me. It seems to suggest that either interpretation is appropriate.

 

[Thundercrack85]

You say agnostics don't worship...what does that have to do with anything?

Im open to the idea of a god, gods, fate, higher being or beings (that is to say beings that are exponentially more evolved than we are both naturally and technologically. I get too much enjoyment from contemplating the possibilities to write it off entirely regardless of the vacuum of evidence for a higher power. I don't think a higher power micro manages us (watching our every minor deed and misconduct) nor do I think it would be magical in nature. And at the same time do to a lack of evidence im not gonna structure my life around a deity or higher being. I don't worship but that doesn't mean I can't be open to a deity. Deists don't worship snd they believe in a god. And some pantheists don't worship either. Point is agnostics arent athiests-lite due to a lack of worship. Point of agnosticism is the person is not saying yes or no. They are open/indifferent to either a gods existence or non existence.

Worship or belief. Atheism, much as it is conflated with anti-theism, and certainty in there not being a God (etc,), simply means being irreligious. You assume all atheism is explicit or hard, or positive.

It's ironic that I'm being accused of having an overly narrow view of agnosticism, when some people here have a rather narrow view of atheism.

By not having a religion, you are implicit atheists.

Though I understand that the label may be undesirable to some.

 

[enterthemadness]

I indietnified myself as agnostic for a while, before going full dark side.

Good times.

Oh Good Lord, you went Darth Vader.

 

[Thundercrack85]

When I told my more religious classmates, friends, acquaintances, etc I was an atheist (after several years of self-identifying as an agnostic) they sort of had that "we've lost him forever" look.

Except for one protestant friend I had. He took it as a personal challenge...

 

[enterthemadness]

When I told my more religious classmates, friends, acquaintances, etc I was an atheist (after several years of self-identifying as an agnostic) they sort of had that "we've lost him forever" look.

Except for one protestant friend I had. He took it as a personal challenge...

Well okay, I was just joking about you going full dark side and making it into Darth Vader Star Wars.

Do they still talk to you or are they like...not?

 

[Thundercrack85]

I lost a few friends / acquaintances over it. But most have come to terms with it.

Unless someone brings it up, I very rarely talk about religion in day to day life.

 

[Marvolo]

When I told my more religious classmates, friends, acquaintances, etc I was an atheist (after several years of self-identifying as an agnostic) they sort of had that "we've lost him forever" look.

Except for one protestant friend I had. He took it as a personal challenge...

Lmao I can relate with this. Ive told a few my beliefs and non beliefs and ive got some looks that ranged from "Burn the heathen!" to "You poor confused soul."

 

[RetrogradeOrbit]

I've bounced around a fair bit in my life with regards to this.

When I was a boy, I was absolutely certain that God did not exist. The very concept seemed ludicrous to me. If I am honest, I thought that anyone that did believe in a God, regardless of what their specific faith is, was pretty much deluded.

Then when I had some trauma in my life as a teenager, I found/turned to God, and for a time I found comfort in that. But after a bit more time, I realised that it was just me needing to believe in something that allowed me to get by. But once I had gotten over those events, I found that I did not feel the same about these things.

Now as an older and hopefully, wiser man, I find that I cannot out of hand dismiss the notion that there is some kind of a higher power. If you want to call it God, I won't get upset with you!

So I guess what I have settled into is being an agnostic. I don't deny the possibility of the existence of God, but without irrefutable proof, I am unable to believe in him/her/it.

I would say that I am a moral person though, and I always try to do the right thing.

YMMV and if it does, all the best to you for it...

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Worship or belief. Atheism, much as it is conflated with anti-theism, and certainty in there not being a God (etc,), simply means being irreligious. You assume all atheism is explicit or hard, or positive.

It's ironic that I'm being accused of having an overly narrow view of agnosticism, when some people here have a rather narrow view of atheism.

By not having a religion, you are implicit atheists.

Though I understand that the label may be undesirable to some.

I'm a theist who is certain there is a God but I don't adhere to any single religion.

Are you saying that makes me an atheist who believes in God?

I think it is more accurate to say an atheist has a disbelief in God where an agnostic has a neutral position of neither belief nor disbelief.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

So basically:

certain disbelief = hard atheist

uncertain disbelief = agnostic atheist

neither belief or disbelief = agnostic

uncertain belief = agnostic theist

certain belief = theist

Why would anyone assume most agnostics were actually agnostic atheist or that most atheist were agnostic atheist? Is there any evidence of this?

 

[RetrogradeOrbit]

Just for the lightness....

I believe in Batman!

 

[Dr.]

Really, agnostics are just atheists who use an asterisk to cover themselves in case one group of religious people somehow end up being right.

Well... sometimes.

There are two definitions of agnosticism.

Originally, the “lack of knowledge” with respect to gods meant forever unknowable. Thus, posing the question about existence was deemed nonsense or incoherent - analogous to wondering what a square circle might look like. And from the religious perspective, god as an “incoherent concept” is no better (or less offensive) than atheism.

The other meaning of agnosticism is the “fence-sitter” - provisionally undecided until more evidence comes in. It’s a useful definition; e.g., being agnostic about life on other planets (presently unknown - but future discoveries could change that) is a sensible position. Likewise, one’s attitude toward gods. And in this sense, agnosticism comes across as more open-minded and diplomatic.

But as you point out, there are at least some agnostics who embrace the first definition (unknowable) but understand that it will be mistaken for the second (currently undecided). Imo, they’d be more honest by labeling themselves as atheists - which, in practical terms, is closer to their true position. Of course, there are many real societal and family pressures which prevent one from being totally honest.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

"Unknowable" is admitting that you can't prove God doesn't exist which is a few steps away from the common atheist position of saying God is no more real than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

 

[RetrogradeOrbit]

Wait, what? There's no Easter Bunny?

 

[chaseter]

"Unknowable" is admitting that you can't prove God doesn't exist which is a few steps away from the common atheist position of saying God is no more real than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

Atheists cannot prove that a god doesn't exist so not really. The only difference between an atheist and an agnostic is that an agnostic is reasonable.

 

[Sundancer]

I'm not here to argue definitions. I consider myself agnostic because I don't know if there is a God or not. As Simon Pegg said in Hot Fuzz "I'm open to the idea of religion. I'm just not entirely convinced by it."

I was raised Catholic, but I have not seen any benefit of religion ie, prayer, happiness, comfort etc. that can not be attributed to psychology. I think people that worshipped Zeus were just as sure and comforted as people who worship Allah and the Judaic/Christian god.

I think most people believe what they do because they were taught to believe it, and that belief was reinforced by their community. If somebody steps outside, questions their beliefs, and is religious by an "educated" decision , I respect that a lot more than people who don't realize how they came to believe what they do.