The Batman/Catwoman relationship is overrated...anyone else agree?

[The Batman]

People like to say that they're practically soulmates and whatnot, and imo, its just not true...people base this usually on the concept of the characters alone rather than any actual proof

IMO, Batman loved characters like Silver St. Cloud and Talia (before her character was butchered) a lot more than Selina. But now, especially in this decade,Selina and bruce are hyped up more than ever. It was disappointing to see the potential and definetely more interesting Batman/Zatanna relationship stomped out just so we can see more selina/bruce in heart of hush

and yes, Selina and Bruce were indeed married...on Earth Two, which was not and is not considered the main continuity of DC, despite it being there first. On earth one, for example, Bruce and Talia were married...and even had a son in "Son of the demon"

To me, Selina should be "Friends with benefits"...not "True love" status

 

[The Joker]

I never fully bought Bruce's love for Silver St Cloud because their relationship was so rushed, and they only had a handful of scenes together in Englehart's brief run on Detective. There was even two whole issues where they shared no scenes together at all because Bruce was being held hostage by Hugo Strange. I liked Silver, but her romance with Bruce is overrated, IMO. I think he had more chemistry with the likes of Vesper Fairchild than he did with Silver.

As for the Bruce/Selina relationship, it's been shown as being very serious at various points thru the years, not just in the last decade:

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

I love the Bat/Cat relationship but I am and always will be a Bats/Talia shipper. I agree her character is freaking butchered beyond belief though. Taking over the world? Raping Batman? Making rapidly aging clones and being the biggest moronic brat next to her son Damian?

Yeah, as much as I love Talia and Batman together (Denny O'Neill's idea for the last Batman adventure was awesome) it has been pretty much screwed now. I'm gonna go cry.

 

[CrimsonMist]

i agree with Joker. I never really liked the Silver St. Cloud relationship either. It was too fast and too brief to be interesting. But i do agree with The Batman that the Bruce/Zatanna relationship is very interesting and i liked how Dini handled that. But regardless of being overrated or not, the last issue in Heart of Hush, with Bruce in the hospital room with Selina was pure brilliance.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

. I think he had more chemistry with the likes of Vesper Fairchild than he did with Silver.

Wait. Vesper Fairchild ACTUALLY got a scene before she was stuffed into a refrigerator!?

 

[The Joker]

Wait. Vesper Fairchild ACTUALLY got a scene before she was stuffed into a refrigerator!?

Yes, they had many scenes together. It never reached a full blown romance, but my point is that he had alot more with her than he ever did with Silver, yet Silver is often remembered by many fans as one of Batman's great loves.

I never understood that. I personally think it's because she appeared in a classic Batman era. Not because of the character itself.

 

[The Batman]

I never fully bought Bruce's love for Silver St Cloud because their relationship was so rushed, and they only had a handful of scenes together in Englehart's brief run on Detective. There was even two whole issues where they shared no scenes together at all because Bruce was being held hostage by Hugo Strange. I liked Silver, but her romance with Bruce is overrated, IMO. I think he had more chemistry with the likes of Vesper Fairchild than he did with Silver.

As for the Bruce/Selina relationship, it's been shown as being very serious at various points thru the years, not just in the last decade:

As much as I respect early 80's Batman for trying to progress, scenes like this always felt wrong to me....I'm not saying Bruce and Selina cant and havent seriously loved each other, I'm just saying it kinda defeats the purpose of their relationship. IMO, it works better when there's more sexual tension than emotional, whereas talia and silver worked better because they were supposed to be serious love interests from the start. I will admit that silver and bruce was more rushed

 

[Miss Webb]

I always thought the Bruce/Selina thing was overblown. Now on earth two, that was legit. But that Bruce and Selina are NOT the ones in main continuity. Also, people confuse looking 'hot in costumes' and sexual flirting as some kind of destined relationship. Where's all this chemistry when they're not in costume? Sure, we got the recent jam down your throat version of Bruce's love for Selina. Maybe he does love her. But again, if it were all that, the woman shouldn't have to be DYING for him to say so. Actually, there was a time where his relationship with Ivy was more interesting and complex. And unlike Selina, Pamela was also attracted to Bruce Wayne the same way. They're basically two people with an attraction who play at love on rooftops. As far as St Cloud, people DO have whirlwind romances and find 'the one' like that. Everything doesn't have to be a thirty year, drawn out drama. Bottom line? Bruce ain't sharing anything important with Selina, period. So all the attraction, flirting and 'love' isn't adding up to much.

 

[The Batman]

I always thought the Bruce/Selina thing was overblown. Now on earth two, that was legit. But that Bruce and Selina are NOT the ones in main continuity. Also, people confuse looking 'hot in costumes' and sexual flirting as some kind of destined relationship. Where's all this chemistry when they're not in costume? Sure, we got the recent jam down your throat version of Bruce's love for Selina. Maybe he does love her. But again, if it were all that, the woman shouldn't have to be DYING for him to say so. Actually, there was a time where his relationship with Ivy was more interesting and complex. And unlike Selina, Pamela was also attracted to Bruce Wayne the same way. They're basically two people with an attraction who play at love on rooftops. As far as St Cloud, people DO have whirlwind romances and find 'the one' like that. Everything doesn't have to be a thirty year, drawn out drama. Bottom line? Bruce ain't sharing anything important with Selina, period. So all the attraction, flirting and 'love' isn't adding up to much.

You basically summed it up better than I ever could

Again, people like to hype selina and bruce based on the idea of the character rather than what happens when they get together. She basically only gets brownie points because she's been around longer than everyone else....but, as you said, does it really add up to anything? IMO, no, and it never really shouldve. I dont think Finger and Kane ever intended for selina to be bruces "one true love", just a dark side of him he can flirt with

 

[Rasputin911]

The best Catwoman story i've seen is still Batman Returns.

The comics should try to emulate that dynamic.

 

[Greg]

The best Catwoman story i've seen is still Batman Returns.

The comics should try to emulate that dynamic.

Heh, I was about to say that. Their relationship in that film was probably one of my favorite parts in the film. The similarities between each other and how both their alter egos were into each other. Bruce and Selina were both digging each other as much as Batman and Catwoman were. Although the Batman and Catwoman parts were... weird with Catwoman wanting to kill him but screw him at the same time. That was one twisted woman.

 

[The Joker]

As far as St Cloud, people DO have whirlwind romances and find 'the one' like that. Everything doesn't have to be a thirty year, drawn out drama.

A whirlwind romance? I'm sorry, but that line of reasoning doesn't hold any water. How are we supposed to believe Bruce was in love with Silver when they shared nothing personal, didn't show any kind of real emotional connection together, not even any real sexual chemistry.

They basically met on Bruce's yacht and shared a dance. The next issue two issues they don't even share a scene together, but we learn they are dating.
Issue after that they share one scene together that lasts about 5 panels where Bruce visits Silver in the hospital. Issue after that they have lunch together, and Silver starts prodding Bruce about his interest in crime. At the end of that issue, Silver sees Batman fighting Deadshot and comes to the conclusion that Batman must be Bruce.
Issue after that Silver flees town because she can't handle the idea of Bruce being Batman. She confronts him, tells him she loves him, but can't live with his secret and leaves.

Now can anyone tell me how this is in any way better or deeper than what Bruce and Selina have shared?

Bottom line? Bruce ain't sharing anything important with Selina, period. So all the attraction, flirting and 'love' isn't adding up to much.

What has he shared with the others that he never shared with Selina? Just look at the relationship with Silver. He shared nothing with her.

 

[Tvar10]

i always hated the batman/catwoman relationship...i like batman when hes dark and alone...not in love and constantly thinking about it ........ bruce wayne is the side of him playboy who gets the girls, not batman

 

[Majic Walrus]

I was definitely let down to see Bat's and Zee's relationship end so quickly. I never minded the Batman/Catwoman/Bruce/Selina relationship, but I think its been done enough. In fact I think all Bruce Wayne/Batman love outside of superheroes that already know his secret identity is pretty lame and done with.

We all understand that Bruce has to date freely to keep the appearance of a billionaire playboy. I think Bruce is simply too cold for a loving relationship to be done well within a comic, but if it was attempted it should be with someone like Zee that knows who Bruce is and someone who can help examine the dating meets working dynamic.

 

[Darthkush]

B/C is WAY overated. I've never really seen what Batman sees in here other than an sexual attraction. Before Talia took over Ra's empire, I felt she and Batman were the best of the batcouples Bruce has had. Sexual and actually romantic.

But ultimately, Batman's true love...is his work.

 

[The Guard]

Overrated by who, exactly? In order to be overrated, someone has to ovverrate it. It's like asking whether The Joker is overrate because he appears so often.

It's no more overrated than any other element in the Batman mythology. Selina is Batman's opposite number. There is no one woman he "should" be with or care about in the mythology, but his relationship with Selina has a lot of key elements that improve the mythology. I will say his romantic interactions/tensions with Selina are generally better written than any of his other female interests/foils.

 

[TheDarkKnight08]

I have to disagree. I don't think the relationship is overrated. It gives Bruce somewhat of a heart, and, IMO, I think it served a great purpose in Dini's "Heart Of Hush". Seeing the antithesis between their lives interact is great, and it almost trumps the Clark/Lois one. All it needs is a little more appearences. I personally love it.

 

[:-}]

i've always hated catwoman and her relationship with batman. She's just not threatening at all. She steals for animal rights. lah dee f***ing dah. in the history of my liking batman I dont think catwoman has ever posed a serious threat to anyone except batman as a franchise.

the fact that she and bruce have their little thing or whatever you want to call it adds as much dept to the story as crying into a puddle. just boring imo

 

[DACrowe]

Catwoman is a great early love interest for Batman. But it has been drawn out. Making her a femme fatale like say in Long Halloween, I always thought was more effective than his most intimate lover. I too used to to think Talia was closer to Bruce, as he knew who he was and it seemed more like lust with Catwoman.

With that said I thought Loeb, despite what some critics said, handled their relationship evolving in Hush, VERY WELL. I really enjoyed reading them. But like the character Hush himself, and Loeb bringing Harvey Dent back and retiring Two-Face (who has already seen his best stories, anyway), later writers mucked up all the possibilities Loeb left from Hush.

Tommy Elliot became a boring stock character, Harvey Dent turned himself into Two-Face...again (when Dent the anti-hero/semi-villain was more interesting) and Batman/Catwoman continued to play like a soap opera. Her coming into the fold as a sometimes-partner and lover turned into a "will they or won't they" soap with a baby daughter included.

All things considered, her finding out Batman is Bruce Wayne was a blown opportunity. I do wish they would revise her and for that matter Talia as well.

 

[Zsasz]

I have never been a fan purely because I have always thought that batman should have no emotions as batman

 

[margon]

^ Absurd. that's an extremely shallow and debilitating reading of Batman. Of course he has emotions - his whole life is full of severely emotional events and ongoining relationships.

Maybe what you mean to say is that you like batman to "appear" emotionless - stoic and stern when he's in full on 'Dark Knight' mode. This is cool, sometimes, but again it's only one facet of a complex personality. Batman is a social chameleon. He's a guy who can mix fluidly with the cosmic big guns and egotists of JLA, or the high society circles of Gotham, hookers in the street, criminals when he's impersonating Matches Malone, etc etc and each time he knows how to leverage these relationships to his advantage. He's been a remarkable father, teacher and ally to many people and you can't accomplish that without being incredibly tuned in. Therefore I have to conclude that his silent tough guy act is only that...an act. If Bruce Wayne can put on a convincing act, so can Batman. When he needs to instill fear or respect from crims or allies, he'll be stoic and mean, when he needs to inspire hope and comradeship he can be incredibly compassionate, generous and insightful. Batman has tactical control over a vast array of emotions, which he uses as tools and disguises at any given time.


I don't like that I'm agreeing with the Guard, but truly, when did the Bat/Cat relationship become overrated in the first place?

Until Dini's recent developments the only person who would touch Batman/Catwoman is Loeb (in TLH and Hush), and let's be honest here, Loeb sucks and his contributions aren't worth jack. There's been nothing meaningful or solid set up with Batman and Catwoman for along time. and imo that's precisily the best thing that Dini's doing in his run right now (Batman & Catwoman) so I'm glad, go to town Paul. btw I also thought it was well handled in the Huntress mini by Ivory Madison

 

[Zsasz]

Maybe what you mean to say is that you like batman to "appear" emotionless - stoic and stern when he's in full on 'Dark Knight' mode.

that is what i meant yes.

 

[The Guard]

Those who feel Catwoman has never posed a threat to Batman, Gotham, etc, have not been reading the right Catwoman stories. She does not just "steal for animal rights".

The problem with Batman/Catwoman is that the conflict has been taken out of their relationship. Part of the reason for that is that she became more of a "good guy" when Ed Brubaker and Darwyn Cooke got ahold of her for a while.

I haven't been reading Dini's latest stuff, I tend to wait for the TPBs. What's he done with Batman/Catwoman? Are you referring to the HEART OF HUSH thing where

Spoiler

Hush cuts out her heart and she takes her financial revenge on him

?

All Loeb did was take the "classic" approach to Batman/Catwoman. She's a bad girl with a heart of gold, and she and Batman like each other. One of the best portrayals of Batman and Catwoman in recent memory that I can recall were their CONTAGION-era and NO MAN'S LAND interactions, when they actually had a semblance of a "conflicted relationship" beyond "Let's run into each other and kiss each other".

 

[BubbaGump]

People like to say that they're practically soulmates and whatnot, and imo, its just not true...people base this usually on the concept of the characters alone rather than any actual proof

IMO, Batman loved characters like Silver St. Cloud and Talia (before her character was butchered) a lot more than Selina. But now, especially in this decade,Selina and bruce are hyped up more than ever. It was disappointing to see the potential and definetely more interesting Batman/Zatanna relationship stomped out just so we can see more selina/bruce in heart of hush

and yes, Selina and Bruce were indeed married...on Earth Two, which was not and is not considered the main continuity of DC, despite it being there first. On earth one, for example, Bruce and Talia were married...and even had a son in "Son of the demon"

To me, Selina should be "Friends with benefits"...not "True love" status

Well if you're reffering to Heart of Hush, I think Dini just wanted to continue the relationship that Loeb had from the first Hush arc for continuity and consistency's sake. The man loves to keep continuity as clean and organized as possible and he addresses pretty much everything before him (Morrison just throws away important points and reincorporates useless Silver Age ones).

In fact, Dini and the DC editors make note of continuity in Slayride (comes before Morrison's CG prose issue), Tec 845 (Salvation Run is addressed), and just when a lot of people thought Dini would ditch Hush Returns, he incorporates it heavily into Heart of Hush. Especially in continuing the "heart" themes from that godforsaken previous run and making it better in his.

Dini is a freak for continuity so it was no surprise he'd include Catwoman into HoH. There's no reason to get riled up over it and call it overrated.

 

[DACrowe]

BTW what did people think of the Hush storyline as I read it recently for the first time in years and am interested in what others thought?

I read it after reading Heart of Hush, which I wasn't a big fan of, albeit it did clean up some problems from recent stories.