The Confederate flag

[Evelisse]

because Rebel.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Plus, there are plenty of people who aren't from the South who display the Confederate flag proudly.

Why?

Because it's a symbol of rejecting the pluralism that ignorant people feel are imposed upon them by "city folk." What exactly they are "rebelling" against is that they have to share their respective country with different races and cultures, which is a product of modernity and does not reflect the country their parents and grandparents had. It's an expression of pride through intimidation and exclusion.

 

[herakles]

Not being an American, I always wondered why, putting aside the racial connotations of that flag and the fact that it is regularly used as a symbol by white supremacist groups, putting all that aside for now, why so many "ultra-patriotic" Americans in the red states would choose to continue to display a symbol of a separatist movement that represents treason in some ways.

Americans by nature are rebels. Our country was born from rebellion and the South rebelled against the North. So it makes sense for a Southerners who consider themselves rebellious to wave that flag. My cousin lived in Oklahoma for a time, he has this next door neighbor who was Black, that guy have the Rebel flag on his car. My cousin was perplexed and asked him why he had that flag on his car. His response was that he is was Southerner and that flag represented the South.

 

[herakles]

Because it's a symbol of rejecting the pluralism that ignorant people feel are imposed upon them by "city folk." What exactly they are "rebelling" against is that they have to share their respective country with different races and cultures, which is a product of modernity and does not reflect the country their parents and grandparents had. It's an expression of pride through intimidation and exclusion.

It is a mentality that "the Man" or "government" is trying to control you. You don't get, I kinda get it.

For some people this is a symbol of "White Supremacy" so it is like having the Nazi flag on their car. For others it is about "Southern Pride" Kinda like you having a the Canadian Flag on your car.

My point is that if you ban this flag then what next the American Flag, there are already people claiming the Stars and Stripes is racist too!!! Political Correctness is getting out of hand!

 

[herakles]

Once again, if someone puts up a nazi flag does their non-racist intentions really matter over the more obvious, historical implication that offends others?

People are claiming the Stars and Stripes is racist now. So we should ban that as well?

 

[Uskok]

Well what flag represented the side that stopped the Confederates from continuing slavery?

What side has outlawed slavery for the last 150 years?

We should just ignore those "minor" facts?

I'm not saying we should ignore anything. But it's hypocrisy to complain about the Confederate flag when much worse crimes have been committed under the US flag.

Uskok if you're fighting with practically everyone in this thread (many who disagree with each other on other topics, but are united about this) then it might.... just might.... be you who's wrong or in denial about the flag's real meaning.

Honestly, I don't care if the whole world is against me. I have my opinion and I'm not changing it. Some flags should be much more upsetting than the Confederate flag but no one is complaining about them (US flag - 89 years of slavery and Native American genocide, Flag of England/UK flag - at least 200 hundred years of slavery and the concentration camps during the Second Boer War, Flag of France - at least a century of slavery and the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution, Flag of the Soviet Union - the Holodomor and the Gulag camps, etc.). The examples could be endless.

The south seceded mainly because the lost the election of 1860. They were the spoiled rotten children who decided to pout about not getting their way.

The same can be said for the Americans in 1775. They "decided to pout" because the government in London didn't want to go their way.

Yeah they just don't ****ing get it.

I'm Jewish. I can't imagine how I'd feel if someone I knew had a Swastika flag and was defending it because it points to his German heritage or some crap.

What a bunch of asses.... Seriously.

My last name is Jewish. I have French and Jewish ancestors. If I knew a guy who had a Nazi flag, I would try to explain to him the Swastika was "imported" from the Far East, therefore it wasn't a German symbol.

That's like saying the Holocaust shouldn't be used to embody Nazis.

I don't understand the fascination with the Confederacy anyway. It stands with Nazi Germany and apartheid-era South Africa as being one of the most appallingly racist countries ever to have existed, and it was phenomenally unsuccessful in its brief existence. Why resurrect any of its symbols? Let it die already. If you want to demonstrate Southern pride just fly your state flag.

I must have missed some history lesson because I don't remember hearing anything about the Confederates having concentration camps built for the purpose of exterminating 6 million people.

Anyone who flies this flag obviously has no concept of facts, history, the truth and represents a oppressive regime that was a band of traitors to their own country.

From their point of view, the South was their country.

"A symbol of southern pride"?

Funny how that symbol has continually made appearances at Klan rallies, protests against integration, and is almost exclusively used by white people. But it's totally not racist.

Just like the US flag. In fact, members of the Klan have used the US flag far longer than the Confederate flag.

Last I checked there were millions of black people in the south and they don't take any pride in that flag being waved around. To the overwhelming majority of Black Americans that flag represents racism, slavery, oppression, and terrorism.

But the thoughts and feelings of black people aren't taken into consideration of those screaming "southern pride". I guess to them black southerners either don't exist or don't count.

This guy doesn't look white to me.

What exactly have the people who wave around the confederate flag done to change it's meaning?

Let's see. You Americans are proud of all your boys who fought under the US flag against the Axis during World War II. But guess what, your boys have fought under the Confederate flag too, during the same conflict.

Plus, there are plenty of people who aren't from the South who display the Confederate flag proudly.

Why?

For various reasons. For example, in my country, the Confederate flag is used by Torcida, the supporters group of the football club Hajduk from the city of Split. Split is located in the south of Croatia, and the Torcida guys always fly the Confederate flag when Hajduk plays against its main rival Dinamo, from the city of Zagreb, the capitol of Croatia which is located in the north of the country. Also, many Torcida guys believe the Croatian football is in terrible state, so flying the Confederate flag is just of one of their methods of protest against the current leadership of the Croatian First Football League.

Now, before we continue this discussion, I recommend everyone to read The Confederate Battle Flag by John M. Coski.

http://www.amazon.com/Confederate-B...6858138?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1430150118&sr=1-1

 

[Lead Cenobite]

Once again, if someone puts up a nazi flag does their non-racist intentions really matter over the more obvious, historical implication that offends others?

They obviously don't have the same reputation. Whereas a show involving a car with a swastika on top of it never would have flown on network television, a show involving a car named after a confederate general and adorned with the confederate flag did. Whether you believe it should, the confederate flag is not necessarily viewed as a symbol of racism and slavery and more as a symbol of southern pride. It's not just the south's fault, maybe it's also the rest of the country's fault at not being more outraged at its usage earlier on.

 

[Kelly]

Once again, if someone puts up a nazi flag does their non-racist intentions really matter over the more obvious, historical implication that offends others?

As a flag, yeah you could probably infer that they are doing it for anti-semetic reasons, not sure about racism however, though in many cases yes they do go hand in hand here in the US...but if it is simply the symbol in someone's house, then there is the possibility that they are Buddhist, and should certainly be taken into consideration before judging.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

People are claiming the Stars and Stripes is racist now. So we should ban that as well?

The US Flag represents countless events and ideologies from over 200 years of history.

It didn't gain relevance because of traitors who fought their own country to continue slavery.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

They obviously don't have the same reputation. Whereas a show involving a car with a swastika on top of it never would have flown on network television, a show involving a car named after a confederate general and adorned with the confederate flag did. Whether you believe it should, the confederate flag is not necessarily viewed as a symbol of racism and slavery and more as a symbol of southern pride. It's not just the south's fault, maybe it's also the rest of the country's fault at not being more outraged at its usage earlier on.

Maybe they should have the same reputation.

The Confederate flag represents a moment in time where half the country committed treason to continue slavery.

That doesn't deserve much more respect than fascists who committed genocide.

Both were deplorable.

 

[zeroapoc]

It didn't gain relevance because of traitors who fought their own country to continue slavery.

Not "to continue slavery" but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

As a flag, yeah you could probably infer that they are doing it for anti-semetic reasons, not sure about racism however, though in many cases yes they do go hand in hand here in the US...but if it is simply the symbol in someone's house, then there is the possibility that they are Buddhist, and should certainly be taken into consideration before judging.

The Buddhist swastika has nothing to do with Nazis.

The Confederate flag has alot to do with the Civil War which had alot to do with treason and slavery.

 

[Kelly]

The Buddhist swastika has nothing to do with Nazis.

The Confederate flag has alot to do with the Civil War which had alot to do with treason and slavery.

Uh...duh.


Your post was about the swastika, you didn't mention Civil War or the Confederate flag, so I only replied to the specifics of your post.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Not "to continue slavery" but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

Except that America was a colony that claimed independence, which happens all the time.

That's different from trying to split up a country in half.

I don't recall George Washington taking away half of England. That's much more serious than a colony claiming independence.

 

[moviedoors]

As a flag, yeah you could probably infer that they are doing it for anti-semetic reasons, not sure about racism however, though in many cases yes they do go hand in hand here in the US...but if it is simply the symbol in someone's house, then there is the possibility that they are Buddhist, and should certainly be taken into consideration before judging.

If it's the red flag with the white circle around the swastika, then judge away.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Uh...duh.


Your post was about the swastika, you didn't mention Civil War or the Confederate flag, so I only replied to the specifics of your post.

Well the Nazi symbol is counter clockwise and the Buddhist symbol for prosperity is clock wise.

So that could be cleared up quite easily.

 

[Kelly]

Well the Nazi symbol is counter clockwise and the Buddhist symbol for prosperity is clock wise.

So that could be cleared up quite easily.

Hmmm... you know that, I know that...but there are MANY out there that have no clue that the symbols are not the same, even though the Buddhist symbol is turned to the right.

This gives a few examples of that ignorance.

http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/swastika.html

I was told by another teacher, just this year, that one of my students had put a swastika on his poster about Buddhism that I put up in the hall with the other posters. A TEACHER....she was shocked that I hadn't noticed it and went ahead and put it up. I had to explain to her the difference...so though you may know and understand the difference, I can assure you the vast majority do not.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Hmmm... you know that, I know that...but there are MANY out there that have no clue that the symbols are not the same, even though the Buddhist symbol is turned to the right.

This gives a few examples of that ignorance.

http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/swastika.html

I was told by another teacher, just this year, that one of my students had put a swastika on his poster about Buddhism that I put up in the hall with the other posters. A TEACHER....she was shocked that I hadn't noticed it and went ahead and put it up. I had to explain to her the difference...so though you may know and understand the difference, I can assure you the vast majority do not.

That's because the Buddhist swastika is no where as popular as the Confederate flag.

If it was everyone would know the difference.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

The Confederate flag is pretty racist and it's pretty dumb to me people defend that crap. Them " It's southern pride and it's got nothing to do with race". Me " There is simply nothing to take pride in when that flag is associated with ignorance, slavery, and racism."

 

[Thundercrack85]

I do think it should be pointed out that the modern-day "Confederate flag" is not the actual national flag of the Confederacy (the Stars and Bars). It is modeled after the "battle flag" of the Army of Tennessee, which was a rejected design for the national flag. The second and third flag did incorporate the "battle flag", but they were still distinct.

For history buffs, the current flag of Georgia is the epitome of irony. The flag was changed to be less like the "Confederate flag" and the final less controversial flag they adopted looks just like the "real" Confederate flag, aka the "Stars and Bars".

 

[Thundercrack85]

I would also say, my misgivings about it aside, that the Confederate flag has a much more complicated history than the 1935-1945 German flag (the "Nazi Flag"). In part, because the Confederate flag isn't a national flag like the "Nazi Flag". It's more than a flag. It's a symbol.

 

[Wylie Times]

This guy doesn't look white to me.

It's typically not a good idea to post pics in discussions like this without giving context.

This is what Ludacris said about wearing that outfit:

"The discussions that have been sparked after my performance of "Georgia" at the 2005 VIBE Awards is my exact reason for wearing a depiction of the Confederate Flag. This flag represents the oppression that we as African Americans have endured for years; this is a symbol of segregation and the racism that reigned not only throughout the South but throughout the entire United States. I wore it to represent where we came from, to remind people that Ray Charles' original "Georgia" was written because of that racism. At the end of the performance, I removed and stomped on the flag to reveal my version of the flag; a flag comprised of black, red and green. Those are the colors of Africa. It is a representation and my interpretation of where we were and where we need to go. Racism is just as prevelant now and if we are not constantly mindful of our history and take charge of it; history is destined to repeat itself because of ignorance. In order to move forward, we must never forget where we were.

I hope people continue to question and challenge authority, media and themselves because questioning and challenging can only lead to enlightenment."

Source

 

[Kelly]

That's because the Buddhist swastika is no where as popular as the Confederate flag.

If it was everyone would know the difference.

Ok?

I don't understand what that has to do with your post specifically on the Swastika, and the replies up to my example of confusion.

I wasn't talking about the Confederate Flag, or its popularity, I was specifically replying to your specific post on the swastika, not sure why you keep adding the confederate flag in on it.

But ok...I'm not really debating you on anything, we agree that the Swastika and Confederate flag are used in very negative ways and symbolize horrible points in history.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Ok?

I don't understand what that has to do with your post specifically on the Swastika, and the replies up to my example of confusion.

I wasn't talking about the Confederate Flag, or its popularity, I was specifically replying to your specific post on the swastika, not sure why you keep adding the confederate flag in on it.

But ok...I'm not really debating you on anything, we agree that the Swastika and Confederate flag are used in very negative ways and symbolize horrible points in history.

I brought up the Nazi flag to relate to the thread topic.

My point is the Nazi flag, like the Confederate flag, will always be associated with atrocities.

The swastika might have another meaning but that doesn't matter because the alternate use is rare in most places.

 

[Uskok]

Except that America was a colony that claimed independence, which happens all the time.

That's different from trying to split up a country in half.

I don't recall George Washington taking away half of England. That's much more serious than a colony claiming independence.

By your logic, all the countries that were part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire until 1918 should go back into it because they have "split up a country in half". If Scotland had voted for independence last year, you would say the Scots are traitors to the UK.

It's typically not a good idea to post pics in discussions like this without giving context.

Didn't see that. My bad.

I do think it should be pointed out that the modern-day "Confederate flag" is not the actual national flag of the Confederacy (the Stars and Bars). It is modeled after the "battle flag" of the Army of Tennessee, which was a rejected design for the national flag. The second and third flag did incorporate the "battle flag", but they were still distinct.

For history buffs, the current flag of Georgia is the epitome of irony. The flag was changed to be less like the "Confederate flag" and the final less controversial flag they adopted looks just like the "real" Confederate flag, aka the "Stars and Bars".

Exactly. Why is no one complaining about the current flag of Georgia when it looks almost exactly like the real national flag of the Confederate States?