The Confederate flag

[zeroapoc]

We'll never know, will we? Which is why these arguments are ultimately meaningless on both sides. I mean who would have saw a Stalinist state like North Korea outliving the collapse of the USSR and lasting into the 21st century?

Wow, someone's getting testy.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I've never bought into the idea that the flag is just an innocuous representation of "Southern pride", whatever that means. That flag initially represented a dark time when our union was torn apart, hundreds of thousands of lives ended prematurely, and America was a lucky to survive. History has shown the succession of the CSA to be a costly mistake, so why celebrate it?

As for the modern connotations of the flag's usage, it's rarely a pretty sight. While there are some logical reasons like historical groups, it's often used to represent an anti-authoritarian, anti-modernity way of thinking. It is naïve to think that the xenophobic/sexist/racist connections can simply be dismissed.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Wow, someone's getting testy.

How so? Did I personally insult hippie hunter like you did Thundercrack?

 

[zeroapoc]

How so? Did I personally insult hippie hunter like you did Thundercrack?

Yeah. I'm totally the one that insulted him. Spot on.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Uh huh…. If you have something you want to say, PM me. Otherwise I'm going to ignore any other replies you have that are off-topic.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Saying that slavery would have lasted into the 20th Century is absolutely nonsensical. While the South wasn't going to give up their slaves out of benevolence and would have developed the pseudo-slavery share cropping system regardless, slavery wasn't going to last beyond the 19th Century because it was a dying system due to economic, geographic, and political realities.

The only way slavery lasting into the 20th Century conclusion works is if we adopt the attitude that the Southern aristocracy were a bunch of inbreed, uneducated, irrational, yokel, ******s which just isn't true.

Why? There was no abolitionist movement in the South to speak of. Even after the Emancipation Proclamation, blacks were treated essentially as peasants and indentured servants (like you said, pseudo-slavery). Jim Crow didn't start to crack until the late 1950's.

Slavery would have died out, but I could certainly see it lasting until the 1900's. The Civil War just moved the South from slavery to pseudo-slavery. No Civil War, and slavery could have easily continued for decades.

You'll recall the Germans reintroduced slavery in the 20th century in Europe. It's not that farfetched, especially in light of the Nazi-Southern connection. The only difference between Southerners and Germans is that the former is American, and cares more about money than genocidal ideology.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Yeah, that's just BS. Trust me I know more Southerners than you. I don't know any who I would classify as "unapologetic about slavery". But nice uninformed stereotyping you got going on there. It seems like you have your own prejudices. But it can be fun to stand on a soapbox and throw out sweeping generalizations can't it?

I'm assuming you come from that great mythical land where black men don't have to deal with issues of race. How superior you must feel.

Uninformed my ass. That's all I'll say on that.

 

[zeroapoc]

Uninformed my ass. That's all I'll say on that.

If you've had issues in your interactions, the problem may have been you.

 

[Thundercrack85]

If you've had issues in your interactions, the problem may have been you.

What? That Southerners are unapologetic about slavery? I can't tell you how many times I heard "oh it wasn't that bad", or my favorite "they were treated like family".

I mean hell, they're still unapologetic about Segregation. They're disenfranchising black voters as we speak.

Probably the weirdest one though was when a (Southern) coworker confided to me that he never realized how bad slavery was. Until he watched Django Unchained. I thought that summed it up well.

Southern culture glorifies the Confederacy, and sugar coats slavery.

 

[zeroapoc]

What? That Southerners are unapologetic about slavery? I can't tell you how many times I heard "oh it wasn't that bad", or my favorite "they were treated like family".

I mean hell, they're still unapologetic about Segregation. They're disenfranchising black voters as we speak.

Probably the weirdest one though was when a (Southern) coworker confided to me that he never realized how bad slavery was. Until he watched Django Unchained. I thought that summed it up well.

Southern culture glorifies the Confederacy, and sugar coats slavery.

Yep. I think I nailed the problem.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I think you're in deeper denial than Mr. Erdogan.

 

[flickchick85]

There are stupid, ignorant people in every region. It's not exactly surprising.

 

[zeroapoc]

There are stupid, ignorant people in every region. It's not exactly surprising.

Beyond doubt.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, I am being threatened, so I am backing out of this thread.

You win by forfeit.

 

[Warhammer]

They sound like junior high goth kids. "I'm against the establishment cuz I'm a rebel, maaaan.... you just don't get it!"

Yeah, some people in this thread are killing me.

But hey, everything's relative.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Why? There was no abolitionist movement in the South to speak of. Even after the Emancipation Proclamation, blacks were treated essentially as peasants and indentured servants (like you said, pseudo-slavery). Jim Crow didn't start to crack until the late 1950's.

Slavery would have died out, but I could certainly see it lasting until the 1900's. The Civil War just moved the South from slavery to pseudo-slavery. No Civil War, and slavery could have easily continued for decades.

You'll recall the Germans reintroduced slavery in the 20th century in Europe. It's not that farfetched, especially in light of the Nazi-Southern connection. The only difference between Southerners and Germans is that the former is American, and cares more about money than genocidal ideology.

The Jim Crow laws were a result of the miserably botched Reconstruction as they were of racisim. If Lincoln had survived, and overseen the post-war period insteadof Johnson, we quite likely never would have had to deal with the decades of Jim Crow oppression.

 

[CaptainWagner]

What? That Southerners are unapologetic about slavery? I can't tell you how many times I heard "oh it wasn't that bad", or my favorite "they were treated like family".

I mean hell, they're still unapologetic about Segregation. They're disenfranchising black voters as we speak.

Probably the weirdest one though was when a (Southern) coworker confided to me that he never realized how bad slavery was. Until he watched Django Unchained. I thought that summed it up well.

Southern culture glorifies the Confederacy, and sugar coats slavery.

As I have had little interaction with Southerners, I can't speak for myself on that issue. However, I wold like to point out that the "treated like family" excuse, while clearly misused, there is no justification for slavery, does highlight a rather common misconception. The majority of slaveholders in the South only held a few slaves, and they were, quite often "treated as family". It was mostly on the large plantations, where the majority of slaves were held, that the atrocities took place.

Of course, that has nothing to do with the subject at hand, I just felt like throwing it out there.

 

[Decepticonus]

Lack of education, along with bias and self-minded arrogance have created this dilemma of the Confederate Flag. What was the Confederate States of America? What caused it you ask?
How about A) the tariffs?
Well, that does not hold up because America had always been a protectionist nation during the 18th and 19th centuries. Southerners had passed numerous tariff increases in the past. Furthermore, the CSA Constitution allowed states to create and pass tariffs. That's right, if I wanted to in a sense import goods from Georgia to Florida I would have to pay a tariff (if that state so choose because the Confederate not the state Constitution allowed them to). So much for free trade, right?
How about B) states' rights?
Well, what did they want to do with their states rights exactly? Time after time the North and Republicans were against the "expansion of slavery" into the territories. Lincoln knew and understood he could not abolish slavery within the states, he had no right to and he respected it, but it didn't mean he had to like it. Was there any clause for secession in their new Confederate Constitution? Nope. Some people got together in secret meetings and talks to secede from the Confederacy, as they grew worried about President Davis' power. He had these talks and meetings disbanded, saying keep an ear out for anyone speaking of "states' rights" because he viewed it as treasonous. Furthemore, the CSA had a passport system to travel between states. This was something from the central government not the states soooooo.... yeah. Obviously the states' rights were for something good and related to slavery. Yet, the central government made it so that if you wanted to join the CSA you had to be a slave state and an already existing state in the CSA could not abolish slavery, hmmm, so much for states' rights.
How about C) slavery?
Yeah that's it. Read all of the states' statements in seceding from the Union they say they all do it to protect the institution of slavery. Read Confederate Vice-President Alexander Stephen's Cornerstone speech where he says their new government is founded on the fact that blacks are inferior, men are not created equal (he in a sense rejects the Declaration of Independence) and further states the Confederacy was founded on and for slavery. There was even an Irishman (forget his name) still knew to the U.S. but fought for the South and said he why not free all the slaves and let them fight for us. His peers thought him mad.

I do not understand this Southern pride, in fact I do not understand any sort of collective pride, it sounds ridiculous. I do not take pride as a American, as a comic book fan or a white male or as a college student, nothing. I take pride in my individual achievements as anyone should.
I think we need to understand the a-typical inbred, white trash conservative who hates facts like Regan raising taxes for example is behind this and keep in mind, they've always been here. We've always had these loony people in American politics. They called Lincoln a black republican. To demonstrate and compared the old and the modern let's go to something more recent.
It was right before or right Obama's first inauguration. People were loosing it and buying up guns, sales were up, all because they feared he was revoke their second amendment rights. But did he? No. Now replace Obama with Lincoln and guns with slaves. The slave market was doing pretty well in 1860, but they assumed he would take their slaves so they left. And they left because they lost an election.

Anyone who flies this flag obviously has no concept of facts, history, the truth and represents a oppressive regime that was a band of traitors to their own country.

 

[Wylie Times]

"A symbol of southern pride"?

Funny how that symbol has continually made appearances at Klan rallies, protests against integration, and is almost exclusively used by white people. But it's totally not racist.

Last I checked there were millions of black people in the south and they don't take any pride in that flag being waved around. To the overwhelming majority of Black Americans that flag represents racism, slavery, oppression, and terrorism.

But the thoughts and feelings of black people aren't taken into consideration of those screaming "southern pride". I guess to them black southerners either don't exist or don't count.

 

[Decepticonus]

"A symbol of southern pride"?

Funny how that symbol has continually made appearances at Klan rallies, protests against integration, and is almost exclusively used by white people. But it's totally not racist.

Last I checked there were millions of black people in the south and they don't take any pride in that flag being waved around. To the overwhelming majority of Black Americans that flag represents racism, slavery, oppression, and terrorism.

But the thoughts and feelings of black people aren't taken into consideration of those screaming "southern pride". I guess to them black southerners either don't exist or don't count.

Sadly, there are. Just youtube it.

 

[Wylie Times]

Sadly, there are. Just youtube it.

That's why I made it point to say what it represents to the "overwhelming majority" of Black people. Sadly There's always a few self hating folks who embrace symbols and ideology of oppression. Hell there were black people who defended the enslavement of black people when it was legal. There were black people that worked with Strom Thurmond to maintain segregation.

There's always a handful of dingbats out there.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Why? There was no abolitionist movement in the South to speak of. Even after the Emancipation Proclamation, blacks were treated essentially as peasants and indentured servants (like you said, pseudo-slavery). Jim Crow didn't start to crack until the late 1950's.

Slavery would have died out, but I could certainly see it lasting until the 1900's. The Civil War just moved the South from slavery to pseudo-slavery. No Civil War, and slavery could have easily continued for decades.

You'll recall the Germans reintroduced slavery in the 20th century in Europe. It's not that farfetched, especially in light of the Nazi-Southern connection. The only difference between Southerners and Germans is that the former is American, and cares more about money than genocidal ideology.

What? That Southerners are unapologetic about slavery? I can't tell you how many times I heard "oh it wasn't that bad", or my favorite "they were treated like family".

I mean hell, they're still unapologetic about Segregation. They're disenfranchising black voters as we speak.

Probably the weirdest one though was when a (Southern) coworker confided to me that he never realized how bad slavery was. Until he watched Django Unchained. I thought that summed it up well.

Southern culture glorifies the Confederacy, and sugar coats slavery.

I think what you're doing is essentially the exact same thing the South is doing in regards to the issue. You're absolutely right that many Southerners sugar coat their history regarding the Confederacy and slavery. It's a coping mechanism that allows them to ignore a lot of the ugly history as to the real reasons why the South seceded (slavery, not state's rights) and that their ancestors and homeland took part in something that was utterly atrocious.

But people who sympathize with the Union do the exact same thing to sugar coat the ugly things the North has done. By characterizing the South the way you do, it serves as a justification for the rather harsh treatment the South got for the Civil War and the aftermath of Reconstruction. It allows people who sympathize with what the Union did to ignore that the North was essentially the kid who kept on going "not touching you, not touching you" to the point where the South felt that they had to secede, that they too committed atrocities in the war, and devastated the South to the point where even to this day, they lag behind most states economically.

I say that it's absurd that slavery would not have lasted past 1900 is because in the end, humans are rational beings. They do a lot of stupid things......and I do mean a lot, a WHOLE LOT. But in the end, even those stupid actions have rational meanings behind them. Even though what the Southern aristocracy did was beyond horror and utterly atrocious in how they treated blacks and participated in the vile institution of slavery, they were still rational human beings. Even secession, as stupid as it was, as vile as it was because they seceded due to slavery, had rationality behind it. The vast majority of people aren't Calvin J. Candie from Django Unchained the way you're characterizing the South.

Now you are absolutely right that there really was no serious abolitionist movement in the South (there were abolitionists in the South, but their efforts were very small-scale in comparison to the movement in the North). But just because there was no serious movement in the South, doesn't mean that the wheels were in motion that spelled slavery's doom even without the Civil War. Politically, the balance was heavily in favor of the Free States because there was no place for slavery to expand to. All of the territories were going to become Free States because territories like Utah and New Mexico did not have the land to support an extensive slave system and territories/states like California, Nebraska, and Kansas choose to be Free Territories. Eventually the Free States would have completely outnumbered the Slave States to the point where they could have banned slavery. And slavery was ending around the world, peacefully due to various abolition efforts focused in Britain, the United States was not shielded by these efforts to end slavery worldwide. Hell, places like Brazil and former Spanish colonies, where slavery was far worse, ended slavery peacefully before 1900. Do you really think that a more developed nation like the United States, a nation of Anglo origin, which had far fewer slaves, would have ended slavery before places that had more slaves, were more dependent on slave labor, and had worse conditions? Probably not.

And economically it made more sense to end slavery. It would be absurd to expect that the Southern aristocracy would have ended slavery out of benevolence. But like I said, they were rational beings that could still see reason. Most of the Southern aristocracy would have eventually come to the conclusion that [poorly] paid labor is far more efficient than slave labor. Many would have been open to the idea of compensation, more so if Garrison didn't taint the Abolition Movement.

 

[Kelly]

The question for the poll is not a very good question....

If it simply read is the Confederate Flag cringe worthy? I would say no....

But, with the portion of the question "for the certain people using it"...

What people? KKK? the owners of a restaurant that caters to tourist visiting Southern states for vacation, or historical value?

What people?

Because when you get into this debate, that means you have to know each and every persons motive for having the flag on their truck, in their dorm room, etc.

For me to answer the question, I would need to know the answer to that question.

My heritage, though I now live in the South, is from the Pennsylvania area and down the Appalachian Trail to Georgia....they were Quaker, so I truly have no dog in this hunt. But, I do have friends that have a very strong Southern heritage and they have medals, and the flag of a family member that fought in the Civil War hanging in their living room. I don't believe they are any more racist than the next person because they have the flag in their living room.

It goes back to a spirited debate that I had in my Pre AP World Geography classes not long ago....."Should we pay for the sins of our fathers?"...it was a very interesting debate.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Should white Americans "pay" for the sins of the past?

Absolutely not.

Should they agree that some things done in the past were horrific and should never happen again?

I would hope so.

 

[Dr. Evil]

This is an interesting debate. I think some people do see "racism" when they see the Confederate Flag, but that is not the symbol of racism in it's ultimate form. For me the symbol of 100% absolute racism is the Nazi Flag. That flag symbolizes evil. It symbolized the systematic imprisonment and annihilation of 6 million Jews. The Confederate Flag may have men like Jefferson Davis, Stonewall Jackson, Robert E. Lee and eventual KKK founder Nathan Bedford Forrest, but the men behind the Nazi flag make the Confederates look like sissies. Adolph Hitler, Heinreich Himmler, Joseph Goebbels, Herman Goring, Josef Mengele, Adolph Eichmann, Klaus Barbie......all 1,000 times more evil then the men who symbolized the Confederacy.

I do think the Confederate Flag does symbolize racism, but it's tame compared to the Swastika.