The Confederate flag

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/...se-confederate-flag-119548.html#ixzz3eXFTP1UX

I might go to that.

 

[MaceB]

I don't think so. As I see it, Decoy is essentially admitting that college students falsely buy into a signifier the same way that the South does. You can be from different demographics and different ages, but still make the same stupid mistakes....
At the end of the day, the point is the same. You can try to alter the symbol, and indeed it might work over a gradual period of time. But no matter what, there's no true divorcing a symbol from it's origin. When black people, say the word n****er.. they may believe they are re-appropriating the word, and in historical context it's understood by people of the time. Nevertheless, there's no getting around it's initial meaning, which for better or worse, is where the majority of it's symbolic power comes from.
The same is true of the South. They can try to re-create the meaning of the symbol, but at least in some small way, it will always hark back to it's initial intent... which is an acceptance of slavery and racism. Also, if you are trying to re-appropriate a symbol's meaning, it's helpful to make that clear and to take it out of it's usual context. Unfortunately that's not what many in the South are doing. They seem proud of it's historical meaning, like it's something to be cherished and held on to.

 

[Mightmitenot]

Oh I'm not arguing that the South had good reasons to secede. That the flag represents slavery and racism is a MUCH better reason to dislike the flag than the treason argument.

Article III

Section 3.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.

As of Ft. Sumter it was treason as defined by law.

 

[regwec]

I know little of American history: who actually made war on who?

 

[Thundercrack85]

I know little of American history: who actually made war on who?

It's a bit complicated. But the Confederates seized federal property in the South by force, which they claimed was theirs by right.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I know little of American history: who actually made war on who?

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/sumter.htm

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

But if they weren't American anymore by virtue of seceding from the Union, then it wouldn't apply to them. That was the argument.

They didn't succeed and it was later ruled that legally they never left the Union, but as I said, it was far from certain at the time and those that joined the Confederacy certainly didn't believe they were committing treason (unlike the Colonials in the American Revolution, who knew exactly what declaring independence meant).

It didn't really matter, because they were all pardoned anyways.

Now, therefore, be it known that I, Andrew Johnson President of the United States, by virtue of the power and authority in me vested by the Constitution and in the name of the sovereign people of the United States, do hereby proclaim and declare unconditionally and without reservation, to all and to every person who, directly or indirectly, participated in the late insurrection or rebellion a full pardon and amnesty for the offense of treason against the United States or of adhering to their enemies during the late civil war, with restoration of all rights, privileges, and immunities under the Constitution and the laws which have been made in pursuance thereof.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Also worth noting for those unfamiliar with the conflict that it being North vs South is an oversimplification. And although slavery was the underlying issue, several slave states sided with the federal government against the seceding Southern states. They include Delaware, Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland and West Virginia (which came into being because it refused to secede with the rest of Virginia).

 

[NotFadeAway]

Ditto for the pro-secession/pro-slavery crowd.

Agreed 100%.....I just like calling out all forms of stupid!

 

[regwec]

I'm not sure that an attempt at secession is of itself an act of war. An attempt to annex residual territory clearly would be, as would a pre-emptive strike against non-seceding states or their forces.

 

[Schlosser85]

IIRC from history class, the war officially began when the Confederacy attacked Fort Sumter in what it saw as a preemptive strike because it believed Lincoln intended to use the fort to blockade Charleston Harbor.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I know little of American history: who actually made war on who?

Short version.

1. The states in the American South separately voted for independence from the United States in their State Legislatures and to form a new country called the Confederate States of America. They did this because they feared that newly elected President Lincoln would abolish slavery.

2. The Confederacy tells the Union to withdraw their troops stationed in the South. The key garrison that will spark the war is at Fort Sumter in Charleston Harbor.

3. The North says 'no.'

4. The Confederates tells the Union 'withdraw from Fort Sumter or we will open fire.'

5. The North says 'no.'

6. The Confederates open fire on Fort Sumter and forces the garrison to surrender.

7. The North raises an Army and invades the South.

That is a very simplified version of how the war started, but that's the basic version of events.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The link had all the info, I am just saying.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

IIRC from history class, the war officially began when the Confederacy attacked Fort Sumter in what it saw as a preemptive strike because it believed Lincoln intended to use the fort to blockade Charleston Harbor.

Lincoln outmaneuvered the Confederacy perfectly when he made the decision to resupply Fort Sumter. Either the Confederacy lets him and lose claims to their sovereignty or they open fire and take the blame for starting the war. Lincoln wins either way.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Lincoln outmaneuvered the Confederacy perfectly when he made the decision to resupply Fort Sumter. Either the Confederacy lets him and lose claims to their sovereignty or they open fire and take the blame for starting the war. Lincoln wins either way.

Lincoln's qualities are always overlooked. Well, outside of his vampire hunting skills.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Lincoln's qualities are always overlooked. Well, outside of his vampire hunting skills.

I honestly think that America would be a much better place if he was alive for Reconstruction.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I honestly think that America would be a much better place if he was alive for Reconstruction.

I agree. I think our road forward would have been sped up and the general transition smoother.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I doubt that. This South has always lagged behind the rest of the country, and virtually all major changes were instituted by an outside force, be it the Union armies, federal courts, the US army, nationalized national guard, federal marshals, the FBI, etc, and now again federal courts with gay marriage. Always with massive push back. That's how that flag in South Carolina's capital got there in the first place. In defiance of the civil rights movement in the 60's.

That's probably why I am so damn shocked by this flag thing. For the first time, Southerners actually seem to be moving along socially on their own accord. That is truly historic.

 

[Charlatan]

I doubt that. This South has always lagged behind the rest of the country, and virtually all major changes were instituted by an outside force, be it the Union armies, federal courts, the US army, nationalized national guard, federal marshals, the FBI, etc, and now again federal courts with gay marriage. Always with massive push back. That's how that flag in South Carolina's capital got there in the first place. In defiance of the civil rights movement in the 60's.

That's probably why I am so damn shocked by this flag thing. For the first time, Southerners actually seem to be moving along socially on their own accord. That is truly historic.

Some are, others are going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Some are, others are going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

Late 19th, you mean.

Hey, Mississippi ratified the 13th Amendment (the one that outlaws slavery) in 2013. There's hope yet.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Late 19th, you mean.

Hey, Mississippi ratified the 13th Amendment (the one that outlaws slavery) in 2013. There's hope yet.

lol!

 

[Wylie Times]

Late 19th, you mean.

Hey, Mississippi ratified the 13th Amendment (the one that outlaws slavery) in 2013. There's hope yet.

The terrifying thing is a form of slavery still exists in Mississippi.

Much like what happened during reconstruction we're seeing black people jailed and forced into labor. They get paid so it's not technically slavery, but they're getting paid as little as 23 cents an hour. The prisons are a for profit business and we're seeing kids (overwhelmingly black) funneled into the prison system for minor school offenses.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I honestly think that America would be a much better place if he was alive for Reconstruction.

I agree 100%. The Radical Republicans were far too willing to punish and humiliate the South. Lincoln's primary goal was reconciliation. I think that if Lincoln were not assassinated race relations would be far better today and the South would have been better developed economically today as well.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Late 19th, you mean.

Hey, Mississippi ratified the 13th Amendment (the one that outlaws slavery) in 2013. There's hope yet.

That was an accident. Mississippi intended on ratifying the 13th Amendment well before 2013 but the paperwork got lost. For the longest time, Mississippi thought that it had ratified the 13th Amendment.

 

[cronosred]

TV Land pulls Dukes of Hazzard.


http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/tv-land-pulls-dukes-hazzard-reruns/story?id=32152437