The END of the DC movie franchaises may be upon us...

[WarBlade]

i read that a lot, warblade. "But it's the people that are the problem." It's never just one thing to me though. In theory it could possibly be because it was a sub-par film that relies too heavily on nostalgia to give it legs to stand on and uses tasteless shock value like passion of the christ to bluntly compel you to feel something.

But that's really unpopular to say...

I wouldn't say the people are the problem either. The people just aren't interested. For the most part they don't even get far enough in the door to think things like "sub par film" "relying heavily on nostalgia" that "uses tasteless shock value". What most will be thinking is, "A Superman film? Meh. What else is on?"

I believe this myself that people may have not liked this movie because it's a pretty depressing, and unexciting superman film that ends where it really begins to get interesting and contains a lot of weird stuff, but who knows... Maybe they have some conspiracy against superman. I don't know. People these days yunno...

Conspiracy theory now? I think if there was ever a conspiracy theory it was probably here on the Hype with fans trying to convince the rest of us that Superman Returns was going to be a huge hit or something.

Personally, I figured it would be a moderate success over in the States and a wet fish everywhere else. I'm actually surprised that every report I've read of projectionists and managers around the world is of poor turnout. From what I can gather it's looking more like a wet fish with a led sinker in it's mouth everywhere.

 

[The Batman]

If you ask me, the reasons both SR and BB didnt deliver lie solely on WB wanting to please the fans, who asked for darker, mature versions of the characters.

And when you ask for that, you lose potential audiences. And before some of you whine and scream that somehow appealing to audiences means camp, just look Batman 89', Donners Superman films, Raimi's Spider-Man flicks, and the first two x-movies.

If WB actually tries to make these movies for audiences and for fans too, then maybe supes and bats will be the hit movies they're supposed to be

 

[dpm07]

If you ask me, the reasons both SR and BB didnt deliver lie solely on WB wanting to please the fans, who asked for darker, mature versions of the characters.

And when you ask for that, you lose potential audiences. And before some of you whine and scream that somehow appealing to audiences means camp, just look Batman 89', Donners Superman films, Raimi's Spider-Man flicks, and the first two x-movies.

If WB actually tries to make these movies for audiences and for fans too, then maybe supes and bats will be the hit movies they're supposed to be

The reason why SR didn't do well is because Singer dropped the ball. Plain and simple. He had the chance to really make his mark, and his devotion to the original film distanced him from fans. If he'd done a reboot and thrown in a supervillain, or a version of Lex that had LexCorps, then this might have been a better film. Adding the kid was a mistake as well, IMO. This movie lost it's momentum with Superman Returns when it became Jason's Arrival. There was one great moment in the film. The plane sequence. Other than that, the film was flat. Singer is to blame for this debacle. Not the fans, not anyone else but Singer and the whack pack of Harris and Daugherty. This film had a great concept idea with the return, but it was a poorly detailed story that was delivered and executed, and the box office is reflecting this.

The sad testament is this: They've already played the return card, so if the franchise takes a few years off and comes back, one really can't call it Superman Returns again. Singer missed a lot of opportunities with this film because his ego only allowed him the tunnel vision of looking at the Donner film as a resource or the Fleisher cartoons, and by doing this, he really turned off today's audience.

While I am disappointed, I do believe Singer will be back for a sequel. It's sad, but I don't see WB letting him go. He'll probably be faced with a choice: Either make a film that WB controls more with regard to creativity, or he'll be allowed to leave on his own accord. Sadly, I think his whack pack writing team should be shown the door, but I think Singer will use whatever leverage he has to keep them there.

 

[The Batman]

your extremely biased opinion on SR aside, the fans are still to blame for SR happening in the first place.

It was the fans who rejected Abrhams superman, asking for something more traditional. And WB werent gonna just rehash the donner film like most of you want. thats why all the crappy changes that were made in ratners/mcg's superman were made in the first place. The sooner people realize this, the better.

And then, Singer comes in, with a take on superman thats traditional, like the fans wanted, and uses the tradtional origin and continuity established by donner.

So yes, the fans are, in part responisble for what we got in SR.

 

[dpm07]

And then, Singer comes in, with a take on superman thats traditional, like the fans wanted, and uses the tradtional origin and continuity established by donner.

So yes, the fans are, in part responisble for what we got in SR.

Not really. If the fans had liked Singer's take, they'd have embraced it more. Singer provided a poor film, and the box office is reflecting that. The lack of action, the introduction of a child, and sticking to the Donner film which is pretty old, are factors that hurt it.

One can defend Singer all they want, but the cold harsh reality is that Singer had his chance, and because of his insistence on doing things his way, and having a good concept but with a poorly written story and characters (Stanford and Kitty) really assisted with the contribution of hurting this film. The acting was good. However, the dialogue at times was weak, and having Kal Penn, Parker Posey, and Peta Wilson perform the particular roles they did, was a waste of their talent. They could all have been used more productively.

 

[The Batman]

I'm talking about why SR didnt do well....i'm not whining about why singer chose not to do my superman. you can scream your head off about how singers wrong for not doing a live action STAS or whatever, but i dont really care, as most people arent complaining about the donner details besides a minority of post crisis fanboys. the general audience dosent give a rats ass about post crisis or the donner movies. Not to mention the majority of superman fans liked the movie, as polls indicate.

 

[dpm07]

I'm talking about why SR didnt do well....i'm not whining about why singer chose not to do my superman. you can scream your head off about how singers wrong for not doing a live action STAS or whatever, but i dont really care, as most people arent complaining about the donner details besides a minority of post crisis fanboys. the general audience dosent give a rats ass about post crisis or the donner movies. Not to mention the majority of superman fans liked the movie, as polls indicate.

It's not a bad film. However, it is a poorly written story. There's really no excitement to the film. It's rather dull and boring, IMO. Singer really hasn't made a film that resonates with the fans, and is one they feel strongly about enough to the point of seeing it multiple times, or even seeing it once. Again, this is clearly reflected in the box office. If the film were so great, WoM would have spread and people would have flocked to see it, over POTC 2.

As it stands, I've heard of and seen some theatres take down a print of SR to give an extra screen to POTC 2 to accomodate the fans because they want to see that film.

POTC 2 put all the elements together needed to make a great film, and it is reflecting at the box office, and will likely reflect with multiple viewing. SR had all the potential in the world, but didn't deliver the goods. This is Singer's fault and the fault of his writers. Their presentation was a poor representation of what people wanted to see in a Superman film.

The fact that Spiderman connected with the fans or LOTR is a strong indicator of a director who knows how to make a film that will bring the people out, and connect with the story. Singer didn't do that. He had all the potential ingredients, but was in over his head, and didn't really give us a film on the level of the ones I mentioned. Superman deserved more than Singer. He also gave us a film with Superman having a son, which has really turned many people off, but it's created a hole so deep that he may not be able to dig out of. We're basically stuck with Jason. This was a poor decision to bring into the mix. This film was supposed to be about Superman's Return, and instead it becomes the focus of Jason's Arrival.

 

[Ben Urich]

Their presentation was a poor representation of what people wanted to see in a Superman film.

That's the biggest problem right there.
I liked the movie (almost loved it), but it really didn't have a target audience. It just... was.

 

[Red Mask]

That's the biggest problem right there.
I liked the movie (almost loved it), but it really didn't have a target audience. It just... was.

Exactly. Superman has grown into a cultural icon. Everybody now has a different perception of him. This same problem could affect the Wonder Woman film, more so than with the comic sales.

 

[Ben Urich]

Exactly. Superman has grown into a cultural icon. Everybody now has a different perception of him. This same problem could affect the Wonder Woman film, more so than with the comic sales.

I think the biggest problem with Wonder Woman is that there's not a woman alive out there who can play her convincingly.

 

[Lestat74]

If you ask me, the reasons both SR and BB didnt deliver lie solely on WB wanting to please the fans, who asked for darker, mature versions of the characters.

And when you ask for that, you lose potential audiences. And before some of you whine and scream that somehow appealing to audiences means camp, just look Batman 89', Donners Superman films, Raimi's Spider-Man flicks, and the first two x-movies.

If WB actually tries to make these movies for audiences and for fans too, then maybe supes and bats will be the hit movies they're supposed to be

I totally agree. I for one am thrilled that we didn't get campy versions of Batman and Superman, both Batman Begins and Superman Returns are reverent of their legacies. I'm thrilled with the darker, more adult take. But if we fanboys didn't scream bloody murder when the JJ ABrams/McG script was leaked, it would have got the green light ( Remember that?? Where Krypton didn't blow up, Jor-El was evil, Lex was Kryptonian, and Superman had a half brother? Oh, and the whole "Chosen One" prophecy? This movie was THAT close to getting made, if not for the internet fervor.) I am thrilled to death that we got the movie we got, and not that. I don't care if it made less money than the McG version would have. The only substantial change to the Superman mythos in SR is Jason, and since Lois and Clark are married in the comics it was gonna happen sooner or later. I'm sure the sequels will be more kid friendly. Let's just hope they don't dumb it down too.

 

[CConn]

I think the biggest problem with Wonder Woman is that there's not a woman alive out there who can play her convincingly.

Yes there is.

Jennifer Connelly's just too old.

 

[Ben Urich]

Yes there is.

Jennifer Connelly's just too old.

Let's make a time machine.

 

[chosen1]

the reason why these movies like potc and FF are doing so well is because of the Kids. they are in no way as good as BB or SR it's just movies that families go see and movies that boyfriend and girlfriend go see. Everytime i ask a client where i work a parent w/ children did they see batman begins. 90% of the time it is a no but yes to FF and Potc. Its just #'s not movie quality.

 

[The Batman]

but...superman is supposed to appeal to kids...and if you think otherwise, you're deluding yourself.

BTAS proved that a mature take on Batman can be popular with kids as well.

 

[batlovescatDC]

Exactly... thank you. Batman Begins grossed much more on DVD than in theatres.

 

[dpm07]

but...superman is supposed to appeal to kids...and if you think otherwise, you're deluding yourself.

BTAS proved that a mature take on Batman can be popular with kids as well.

The DCAU proved a mature take can work. However, this was a poorly written story with regard to Superman Returns. Hence, it is not connecting with the fans, and they are not going out to see it. It's not the audience's fault. It's Singer and his whack pack of Harris and Daugherty who had a great concept, but a poor story.

If you think otherwise, you're just deluding yourself. However, you can probably be happy in the sense that we'll likely get a sequel and it will be just as poor from Singer again.

 

[WarBlade]

However, this was a poorly written story with regard to Superman Returns. Hence, it is not connecting with the fans, and they are not going out to see it.

Every post you make talks about the fans. From what I've seen the fans saw the movie and not many others bothered, so frankly all this theorizing about how the film failed financially because Singer made something that the fans in general might have had a hard time accepting is frankly quite laughable.

Take the hint here. The general non-Superman fan movie-going public in 2007 is not really that interested in going to see a Superman film.

 

[StorminNorman]

POTC 2 put all the elements together needed to make a great film, and it is reflecting at the box office, and will likely reflect with multiple viewing.

POTC 2 isn't half the film that Superman Returns is.

 

[dpm07]

POTC 2 isn't half the film that Superman Returns is.

Actually, that's just your opinion that POTC 2 isn't half the film SR is. You need to clarify that or you really don't come off as anything other than posturing that your opinion is absolute. By doing so, you lose all credibility in your statement.

 

[Galactical]

I wouldn't say the people are the problem either. The people just aren't interested. For the most part they don't even get far enough in the door to think things like "sub par film" "relying heavily on nostalgia" that "uses tasteless shock value". What most will be thinking is, "A Superman film? Meh. What else is on?"

But it's SUPERMAN. It's why smallville's a hit and he's an extremely popular superhero around the world. i don't understand how anyone would not want to see something anything about superman unless there's poor wom on the flick.

Conspiracy theory now? I think if there was ever a conspiracy theory it was probably here on the Hype with fans trying to convince the rest of us that Superman Returns was going to be a huge hit or something.

You're telling me? it's politics nowadays. agenda driven propaganda, flamewars, statistics, the spin makes you dizzy, all this stuff getting thrown around to play movie politics. it's something i see every day. i sometimes wonder if there are really some who have stock in these film's success or if agents from the studios are amongst us. i'm just some dorky guy with a laptop, but hey nobody knows that for real. Maybe I'm under the employ of fox studios. I vaguely remember that being reported on the news, that studios pay people to hype their films online. It makes me sick.

Personally, I figured it would be a moderate success over in the States and a wet fish everywhere else. I'm actually surprised that every report I've read of projectionists and managers around the world is of poor turnout. From what I can gather it's looking more like a wet fish with a led sinker in it's mouth everywhere.

All this is not too surprising for me. i didn't walk away think i saw a box office smash, but knew the potential was there because it's a superman film after all these years, rabid fans would gobble it up. But i didn't factor in the popular cartoons and smallvile show maybe already providing enough supes so that if this film was anything but excellent it wasn't going to be as big a quencher for them as some of the best stuff we've seen from supes in other incarnations. It's not like the star wars prequels which although really poorly written movies, still made a ridiculous profit at the bo most likely because they were some new star wars movies and were marketed very well. I guess people have become wiser? have seen better non-stalker superman anyway? WB's really twisting around trying to find an answer to why this movie is sinking and imo it's not because there's too much supes, it's because this movie forgot supes is supposed to be light fun, not the passion of the superman and superboy.

 

[MalroyChick11]

Spider-Man is so popular because ppl can relate to him and like him or not a vast majority of the worldwide public wanted to see Tom Welling end his run on Smallville (fact: SV brings in profits to Warner what SR cost to make - over 200 million dollars in tv, dvd and merchandise sales and is the most sold and watched Warner Bros. tv show worldwide) and gratuate to the big screen because they CAN relate to his portrayal of the character. He made people believe again in Superman (and again whether some ppl want to admit it or not, it's thanks to the show and his portrayal that Warner greenlit a new Superman movie) and that's why alot of ppl wanted to see Supes soar once again.
This movie as good as it is, it's still a huge disapointment to ppl who wanted something new and original. And hopefully after this great homage to the Donner film, in a few years Warner will give us a new movie with something new and with a Superman ppl can relate to.

Okay, I might be completely wrong, but I wanted to put a thought in:

I think Spider-Man is only loved because he has a cool costume and fun powers.

There. I said it.

I mean, I loved the whole 'Superman growing up on a farm and ending up in Metropolis' thing. Plus Lois and Clark are my all-time favorite couple. With Spidey....he's a geek with a crush on some hot chick who got bit by a spider. It's the X-Men I can relate to; not Spider-Man. I just wish I had the webs and the tall buildings.

 

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

Kane]Superman Returns was an amazing film but it seems to be doing badly in the Box Office despite an extremely strong marketing campaign by WB.[/B]

If SR does indeed prove unprofitable, there will likely be no sequels (given the massive budget it requires).

.

If anyone is curious as to why Superman Returns is doing so poorley, it's very simple. Opening July 4th weekend. A HUGE mistake by WB. Idiots, who the hell wants to go to the movies on the 4th of July? Yes a lot of people, but there are also just as many if not MORE people going away for that weekend. Plus a Wed premiere opening, when as a movie EVER opened to a HUGE 3 day premiere when it's on a wed?

Not to mention that the following week POTC opens right after it, another huge mistake by WB. They screwed SR over themselves.

It should have opened at least a week earlier if not two weeks AFTER POTC.

 

[WarBlade]

If anyone is curious as to why Superman Returns is doing so poorley, it's very simple. Opening July 4th weekend.

A theory which self-destructs under the observation that this American event date has zero bearing on all of the other markets that are reporting low attendance at Superman screenings.

 

[Octoberist]

I think that Batman Begins and Superman Returns can't be compared box office-wise. Let's leave Spider-Man out of my arguement since NOTHING IN THE WORLD can touch that.

Batman Begins was a moderate sucess box office wise. And the DVD sales were very strong, and actually pulled in more people into its fanbase. Batman Begins also had to restart the franchise, a hard task to do since the last terrible movie came out 8 years before.

And to be fair, we can't really judge Superman Return's Box office right now (it's not done yet) but when compared to Pirates 2, it's dissapointing.


The difference between batman begins and Superman Returns is the critical response. While Batman didn't break records, it's hailed as a groundbreaking movie in this genre. It has a universal appeal, both comic and causual fans alike.

Superman Returns got good/decent reviews but from what I'm feeling right now, it's almost like a HULK backlash from the fans. And because it's not doing 'SUPER' at the box office, people who didn't like the movie had a field day. Remember, the internet CAN be an arena where people can very pesimestic....

So it's not the end of DC. Superman just underperformed for no reason. The last movie came out almost 20 years ago. I just think the appeal of Superman is lacking, and Singer in my honest opinion didn't do enough to change people's minds. I liked Superman Returns, don't get me wrong, but it could of been better. It felt unfocused. It had good ideas, but also had a bunch of bad ideas, which probably led to its lukewarm box office fate.