Justice League The Flash Point Explained (reposted from BvS subforum)

[LamboMan]

On special request by KillerWolf, I'm posting this thread of mine again in this JL forum. Originally posted it in the BvS forum :


I feel it's the best explanation I can come up with for this largely misunderstood event.

Just want to have a place where we can discuss this event on it's own.

I also made accompaniment pictures to further explain the chain of events visually and succinctly too. (Open the images in a new tab for full size.)


Here goes:


0. Bruce begins the decryption and since it's taking time, he seems to have dozed off. We jump forwards in time to the Knightmare scene. This is all within Timeline A.

1. The scene shows us a future, where Lois has died, Superman has gone rogue and Darkseid rules the Earth. Batman is living on the lam with a group of followers and trying to get Kryptonite to take out Superman who is now evil. The movie actually jumps forward in time, it doesn't just show a 'possible' future or a 'dream' sequence, it shows an actual future that IS HAPPENING as we watch it, in Timeline A.


2. This shows us that he doesn't have access to Kryptonite in Timeline A and possibly NEVER had access to Kryptonite in Timeline A and so he couldn't take out Superman before and then Superman somehow lost Lois and went rogue in that future. We don't know what events happened to lead us to that point, but they were obviously very different from what happened in the movie, therefore ANYTHING that happens after the Flash turns up cannot be considered as part of that Timeline A and we can be assured that different events took place as opposed to the events in the movie after that point. Barry meets Bruce in this timeline at some point before the Knightmare event.


3. Batman is killed by Superman at the end of the Knightmare event, ending Bruce's consciousness in Timeline A. That is the last thing Bruce's memory holds from Timeline A.

4. The Flash travels back to the present from AFTER Batman dies in Timeline A to deliver a message to Bruce who is still in Timeline A but in the past so that he can avoid that future, where he dies.

5. The Flash enters the past and the events after that point begin to collapse. Timeline A is COLLAPSING upon itself to converge at the Flash Point. Future Bruce is merging with present Bruce.


6. Bruce wakes up startled from his 'Knightmare' when he dies since those memories are residual from that timeline that has just CHANGED by the appearance of the Flash and since it is the last thing he remembers from that Timeline A. You can see that he has actually 'dreamt' of his death at the hands of Superman since he is holding his chest in pain or shock from those residual memories. The Timeline A is collapsing onto itself at this point, therefore Bruce has residual memories from his future self from just before his death. This is all due to the occurrence of the Flash Point and it's accompanying effects.


7. Flash and Bruce apparently know each other very well in that future of Timeline A which is now collapsing, rendering that event void. Hence Flash says, "Am I too soon? I'm too soon!" when he sees that Bruce is confused and doesn't recognize him or understand what is going on since he created the Flash Point before they ever met.

8. After Flash delivers his message Bruce gains new information and two things change in Timeline A:

a. Batman learns that Superman is a completely assured threat and acknowledges it (1% chance dialogue after this event).
b. He learns that he MUST get the Kryptonite to stop Superman or else he WILL fail. He remembers his failure(death) from the Knightmare event.

9. As soon as Bruce goes through this event and the Flash leaves, the timeline RESETS itself to that point, the Flash Point, and so Bruce wakes up from his sleep again JUST as the portal closes and the Flash leaves Timeline A, which is now becoming/transitioning into Timeline B. The future from Timeline A is totally eliminated and a new Timeline B is formed from that point onward but Bruce still retains those residual memories since he was the flux point or inflection point (common factor/human observer) of that event.

He also remembers the Flash Point and the Flash's appearance since he immediately looks around in the direction of the portal when he wakes up again.

The portal closing is the only common event between Timelines A and B and therefore we see its residual effects in the form of the falling papers Timeline B.

10. THIS EVENT of the Flash appearing and making Bruce acknowledge the threat and his need for Kryptonite, changes the future and that ripple effect leads to the chain of events seen in the rest of the film which culminates in Lois not dying and Superman dying. Batman gets the Kryptonite and makes a spear out of it. That allows Superman to kill Doomsday but he ends up dying in the process.

TL;DR

If it still isn't clear, I'll repeat and summarise:

In Timeline A Bruce meets the Flash at some point and DOES NOT obtain Kryptonite and thus fails to attack Superman who then kills him. Then the Flash goes back in time to warn Bruce that he was right about Superman going bad and to help him avoid his death. The Timeline A was changed by the very act of the Flash appearing and creating the Flash Point and Bruce kept his memories from the future due to the effects of the Flash appearing and creating a timeline distortion. He dreams of the future DUE TO THE VERY FACT that the Flash appears and changes the timeline. Then when Flash leaves and Bruce has new information and a new conviction which means new actions and a different future, the Timeline A resets/collapses to the Flash Point and a new Timeline B is formed from that point onward, with completely new events. It seems that the event of the portal closing is the only common event in both timelines (because that was the exact moment the Timeline reset from A to become B) and therefore we can see the papers flying about when Bruce wakes up the second time, which he did because he was reset too.

In Timeline B Batman gets the Kryptonite, creates the spear and attacks Superman who later uses it to kill Doomsday since there was no other way and ends up dying himself.



FIN. Whew.




PS: Here's something really interesting that I just found out thanks to a user on the other forum where I posted this article originally:

Jay Olivia of DC Animated movies who worked with Zack on the scene says:

And after working on the Knightmare sequence with director Zack Snyder, Oliva offered up his own explanation on the Hall of Justice Podcast as to what the ‘dream sequence’ really means:

“You want to know the answer? Okay… you’ve watched The Flashpoint Paradox, my movie, right? In the DC Universe in the comics, there’s this thing where– it’s a little different than the Back to The Future thing where you can go back in time and change your threads and stuff, but in DC, when you go back in time you create this kind of ‘Time Boom’ kind of thing where lots of things change.

“Okay, so let me just tell you this. Again… I don’t know if this is Zack’s thinking, but this is mine: what if that isn’t a dream sequence? What if what you saw was a Time Boom, a latent memory from the future when Flash comes back? If you look at the cut, he doesn’t go to sleep! He’s waiting for the [Lexcorp file decryption] and suddenly this [Knightmare sequence] comes in, and he’s jogged out of it seeing his own death. And what does he see? He sees Flash. And if you’re a DC fan, you know what’s happening. You know that Flash going back in time, that memory is now coming back to him… mind you, it’s jumbled.”

Except for the Batman not sleeping off part, my explanation is the exact same one!

Sure, that's his own interpretation of the events but it's from an official DC honcho and one who worked on the scene.

 

[KillerWolf]

Thank you for indulging my request and posting it here mate.

We often bring up the knightmare scene and it's meaning and possible repercussions as it ties into the "Justice League, and I think you hit the target with this, so I felt it belongs here.

What always baffled me is never actually seeing Bruce falling asleep and him "waking up" twice and this explains it perfectly. I'm definitely sold on this theory.

 

[LamboMan]

Thank you for indulging my request and posting it here mate.

We often bring up the knightmare scene and it's meaning and possible repercussions as it ties into the "Justice League, and I think you hit the target with this, so I felt it belongs here.

What always baffled me is never actually seeing Bruce falling asleep and him "waking up" twice and this explains it perfectly. I'm definitely sold on this theory.

Thanks! Glad it cleared things up for you!

 

[KillerWolf]

Thanks! Glad it cleared things up for you!

I had my theories, but they all had some things that wouldn't add up. This right here is exactly what my brain needed to untangle from the mess of its own creation. t:

 

[Silliminite]

That was a fascinating read, Lambo.

 

[Da-Scribe]

Only halfway through and it's already making so much sense. Sexiest explanation I've read. Kudos.

 

[LamboMan]

I had my theories, but they all had some things that wouldn't add up. This right here is exactly what my brain needed to untangle from the mess of its own creation. t:

That was a fascinating read, Lambo.

Only halfway through and it's already making so much sense. Sexiest explanation I've read. Kudos.

Thanks guys!

 

[Wolfgangamadeus]

Beautifully explained. I was trying to explain it to a buddy of mine how Bruce was still able to retain his memories due to the flashback of the timeline but you did a fantastic job with the graphic. I'll link this to him

 

[kalhawj]

Great post and this is what I have been explaining to folks who don't get the sequence.

 

[LamboMan]

Beautifully explained. I was trying to explain it to a buddy of mine how Bruce was still able to retain his memories due to the flashback of the timeline but you did a fantastic job with the graphic. I'll link this to him

Great post and this is what I have been explaining to folks who don't get the sequence.

Thanks for the appreciation guys!

Glad you found it useful.

 

[Corko]

Great explanation. I was trying to explain it to my brother over the phone and it did not go well. Will need to reference this next time.

 

[dhandler01]

Great job, and honestly it is not that hard to understand if you think about it. The trope is used quite often and any fan of sci-fi should pick up on it. it is like the movie The Butterfly Effect, every time he time travels and changes things it has massive effects all over the place and he has a residual memory of it. (which causes brain damage)

Killer and I had a few arguments with some people about this since the movie came out. The Knightmare is now an alternate future because The Flash changed it. It is pretty obvious that in the Knightmare Batman and Superman never fought. (or if they did it was post Lois dying) Batman had no K-rock and Superman made sure to de-mask him before killing him. That future was changed because the Flash came back and Bruce decided to go pro-active and try and stop Superman before he can ever go rogue. This is made most obvious by the fact that Batman is now in league with Wonder Woman and wants to find the other metas and in the Knightmare they are nowhere to be seen.

I know the analogy kind of sucks but it is kind of like the end of Back to the Future 3 where because Marty doesn't get in the accident with the Rolls Royce the entire future they saw in Part 2 never happens. The "You're Fired!" fax erases and Doc tells them their future isnt written yet. Marty changing one event changed the entire future of that universe. The Flash did the same thing.

 

[moviefreak]

Excellent explanation of "movie science". :lol

I understood what happened on my first viewing. It wasn't until on my second viewing that I noticed that Bruce seems to "wake up" twice.

I would considered that this "Flashpoint" approach to be similar in vein to "Many Worlds Interpretation" originally proposed by Hugh Everett --many universes existing alongside us on the quantum level where the random quantum processes cause the universe to branch into multiple copies, one for each possible outcome. This is just one of several interpretations, the one that I'm most comfortable with. lol

For anyone interested in reading, here's an article on Parallel Universe & Many-Worlds Theory originally published in Scientific American:
http://www.universetoday.com/113900/parallel-universes-and-the-many-worlds-theory/

 

[KillerWolf]

Great job, and honestly it is not that hard to understand if you think about it. The trope is used quite often and any fan of sci-fi should pick up on it. it is like the movie The Butterfly Effect, every time he time travels and changes things it has massive effects all over the place and he has a residual memory of it. (which causes brain damage)

Killer and I had a few arguments with some people about this since the movie came out. The Knightmare is now an alternate future because The Flash changed it. It is pretty obvious that in the Knightmare Batman and Superman never fought. (or if they did it was post Lois dying) Batman had no K-rock and Superman made sure to de-mask him before killing him. That future was changed because the Flash came back and Bruce decided to go pro-active and try and stop Superman before he can ever go rogue. This is made most obvious by the fact that Batman is now in league with Wonder Woman and wants to find the other metas and in the Knightmare they are nowhere to be seen.

I know the analogy kind of sucks but it is kind of like the end of Back to the Future 3 where because Marty doesn't get in the accident with the Rolls Royce the entire future they saw in Part 2 never happens. The "You're Fired!" fax erases and Doc tells them their future isnt written yet. Marty changing one event changed the entire future of that universe. The Flash did the same thing.

Yup, exactly. When you think about it, it's really not hard to understand, especially if you've seen few films where time-traveling works like this (though I am more of a fan of arguably more "accurate" "Twelve Monkeys" approach, which adheres to the school of thought that timeline is fixed and can't be changed), still, I wasn't sure what to make of Bruce's abrupt falling asleep and his two wakings until I read this. It also confirmed some things I wasn't 100% sure about. Reading this and seeing these wonderful illustrations made it all finally click to me.

I accidentally entered BvS subforums and stumbled upon this gem of a thread so I immediately had to ask LamboMan to repost it here.

 

[dhandler01]

Yup, exactly. When you think about it, it's really not hard to understand, especially if you've seen few films where time-traveling works like this (though I am more of a fan of arguably more "accurate" "Twelve Monkeys" approach, which adheres to the school of thought that timeline is fixed and can't be changed), still, I wasn't sure what to make of Bruce's abrupt falling asleep and his two wakings until I read this. It also confirmed some things I wasn't 100% sure about. Reading this and seeing these wonderful illustrations made it all finally click to me.

I accidentally entered BvS subforums and stumbled upon this gem of a thread so I immediately had to ask LamboMan to repost it here.

I am of 2 minds on time travel stuff. If we are discussing what I think in the real world I believe that either the past is fixed (not the future) or that any change to the time line you make Time will correct for. What that means is, Time will never allow for a paradox to happen so if say you went back in time and somehow prevented your parents from meeting on the day they met, Time would force them to meet anyways and would fix the wound.

In movies/tv shows I go more with how it usually works in The Flash. Time Travel is possible (similar to crossing Earths/Dimensions) but the very act of it changes things and you can never go back. (the TV show does awesome with this stuff) Once you break the Time barrier you go back to a point and everything unfolds as a new timeline from there on out. I am a Multiverse lover.

Incidentally DC Convergence damned near put both together beautifully. Brainiac from Pre-Flashpoint survived and wanted to learn about the multiverse. (he goes evil not unlike Krona in COIE) After he realizes the horrors he has caused he decides to return all the characters from past timelines he stole (which was awesome...The Omniverse exists!!) but he cant because The Crisis on Infinite Earths is a wound on the timeline that never healed (very meta because that event has really made things convuluted and every crisis since has tried to fix it) and time has been screwed up trying to heal itself ever since. Fun stuff!

As much as it would be a copy of DOFP I kinda of hope the stupid 4chan rumor about the future is true. I want to see the Knightmare from the other side of the equation...Batman is going after the K-rock and The Flash takes it upon himself to try Time Travel. (maybe Bruce tells him too, maybe he goes a bit rogue) We travel with him, he is weak which is why he is not able to stay long but he can get a message to Bruce...enough to hopefully change how the dominoes fall. (I honestly think it would go a long way with some of the Superman fans if Bruce says something like "He was a good man, it should never have gone this way...if only Lois had never died...I should have acted sooner" which is what leads Flash to say "You were always right about him, Lois is the Key".) He doesnt want to change too much, just enough to make sure Batman and Superman end up on the same side when things go bad.

 

[LamboMan]

Great explanation. I was trying to explain it to my brother over the phone and it did not go well. Will need to reference this next time.

Hey Corks, thanks!

Great job, and honestly it is not that hard to understand if you think about it. The trope is used quite often and any fan of sci-fi should pick up on it.

Yes, I'm a mega sci-fi buff! And yeah, sadly 'thinking about it' is not something many people do haha, most people want stuff exposited directly and to the last detail for them (in other words, spoon fed ) in the movie itself.

Excellent explanation of "movie science". :lol

I understood what happened on my first viewing. It wasn't until on my second viewing that I noticed that Bruce seems to "wake up" twice.

I would considered that this "Flashpoint" approach to be similar in vein to "Many Worlds Interpretation" originally proposed by Hugh Everett --many universes existing alongside us on the quantum level where the random quantum processes cause the universe to branch into multiple copies, one for each possible outcome. This is just one of several interpretations, the one that I'm most comfortable with. lol

For anyone interested in reading, here's an article on Parallel Universe & Many-Worlds Theory originally published in Scientific American:
http://www.universetoday.com/113900/parallel-universes-and-the-many-worlds-theory/

Haha, yeah thanks! 'Movie science' is science too!

Gotta make sure it all adds up haha. Btw, thanks for posting that link, I love reading that kind of stuff!

I accidentally entered BvS subforums and stumbled upon this gem of a thread so I immediately had to ask LamboMan to repost it here.

Nothing happens by accident if we are positive and look for the good in things!

Btw, did you see my other threads too? 'Themes in BvS', 'About Martha', 'Real World/Historical/Pop Culture References in BvS'?

I'm sure you'd like those too!

 

[SuperAl]

The knightmare sequence technically doesn't exist now since Flash changed it. I do wonder if they start JL in the future and show why flash went back.

 

[dhandler01]

I would love to read all of them Lambo...but I refuse to step into the wasteland that is the BvS forums ever again. I accidentally clicked on it once out of habit and screamed and clicked away as fast as I could before I was drawn in!!

 

[LamboMan]

I would love to read all of them Lambo...but I refuse to step into the wasteland that is the BvS forums ever again. I accidentally clicked on it once out of habit and screamed and clicked away as fast as I could before I was drawn in!!

No issues, here are links to them on other places:

About Martha: The 'Masculine' vs 'Feminine' in BvS
http://moviepilot.com/posts/3895267

Themes in BvS
http://dceufilms.proboards.com/thread/202/themes-batman-superman-dawn-justice

Real World/Historic/Pop Culture References in BvS
http://dceufilms.proboards.com/thread/204/real-world-historical-culture-references

Comic book references in BvS outside of TDKR
http://dceufilms.proboards.com/thread/205/comic-book-references-outside-tdkr

 

[Da-Scribe]

So, is it possible the Flash film could be a Timeline A film? After the death of Bruce, Barry has to race back in time to change things, but he needs that special suit in order to survive breaking the time barrier to communicate with Bruce. But that suit happens to belong to another time traveling speedster, Eobard Thawne, in cahoots with Superman and Darkseid.

I could see Barry traveling back to different points in time, gradually wearing the suit down, while trying to get to the right point. We may even see an alternate version of the Lex scene. Maybe Bruce was given the ultimatum by Lex, only it was between like Lois and Alfred or something. Bruce tries to save both, but Lois dies, leading Supes down that Injustice path and causing him to blame Bruce for her death.

 

[LamboMan]

So, is it possible the Flash film could be a Timeline A film? After the death of Bruce, Barry has to race back in time to change things, but he needs that special suit in order to survive breaking the time barrier to communicate with Bruce. But that suit happens to belong to another time traveling speedster, Eobard Thawne, in cahoots with Superman and Darkseid.

I could see Barry traveling back to different points in time, gradually wearing the suit down, while trying to get to the right point. We may even see an alternate version of the Lex scene. Maybe Bruce was given the ultimatum by Lex, only it was between like Lois and Alfred or something. Bruce tries to save both, but Lois dies, leading Supes down that Injustice path and causing him to blame Bruce for her death.

That is a pretty nice alternate idea!

Not sure if we'll EVER see anything related to the Knightmare or Flash scene though. I feel this was a one time event.

 

[Da-Scribe]

That is a pretty nice alternate idea!

Not sure if we'll EVER see anything related to the Knightmare or Flash scene though. I feel this was a one time event.

Thanks! You're probably right though, in that we won't see it again. But revisiting that Knightmare world from another perspective would be pretty cool.

 

[SuperAl]

I could see Barry traveling back to different points in time, gradually wearing the suit down, while trying to get to the right point. We may even see an alternate version of the Lex scene. Maybe Bruce was given the ultimatum by Lex, only it was between like Lois and Alfred or something. Bruce tries to save both, but Lois dies, leading Supes down that Injustice path and causing him to blame Bruce for her death.

Well in injustice, Superman is still in control of himself. I would think darkseid is involved in the knightmare sequence otherwise why would the parademons give batman to superman. at some point in the knightmare future he gets controlled. Still though, flash already went back which means the timeline is changed. It'll be interesting to see how they do JL1, I wonder if the movie will be from the perspective of flash since he alters the timeline.

 

[LamboMan]

Thanks! You're probably right though, in that we won't see it again. But revisiting that Knightmare world from another perspective would be pretty cool.

True dat! Like if they gave us a glimpse of the event from the Flash's perspective, I'm totally down for that.

 

[KillerWolf]

I am of 2 minds on time travel stuff. If we are discussing what I think in the real world I believe that either the past is fixed (not the future) or that any change to the time line you make Time will correct for. What that means is, Time will never allow for a paradox to happen so if say you went back in time and somehow prevented your parents from meeting on the day they met, Time would force them to meet anyways and would fix the wound.

In movies/tv shows I go more with how it usually works in The Flash. Time Travel is possible (similar to crossing Earths/Dimensions) but the very act of it changes things and you can never go back. (the TV show does awesome with this stuff) Once you break the Time barrier you go back to a point and everything unfolds as a new timeline from there on out. I am a Multiverse lover.

Incidentally DC Convergence damned near put both together beautifully. Brainiac from Pre-Flashpoint survived and wanted to learn about the multiverse. (he goes evil not unlike Krona in COIE) After he realizes the horrors he has caused he decides to return all the characters from past timelines he stole (which was awesome...The Omniverse exists!!) but he cant because The Crisis on Infinite Earths is a wound on the timeline that never healed (very meta because that event has really made things convuluted and every crisis since has tried to fix it) and time has been screwed up trying to heal itself ever since. Fun stuff!

As much as it would be a copy of DOFP I kinda of hope the stupid 4chan rumor about the future is true. I want to see the Knightmare from the other side of the equation...Batman is going after the K-rock and The Flash takes it upon himself to try Time Travel. (maybe Bruce tells him too, maybe he goes a bit rogue) We travel with him, he is weak which is why he is not able to stay long but he can get a message to Bruce...enough to hopefully change how the dominoes fall. (I honestly think it would go a long way with some of the Superman fans if Bruce says something like "He was a good man, it should never have gone this way...if only Lois had never died...I should have acted sooner" which is what leads Flash to say "You were always right about him, Lois is the Key".) He doesnt want to change too much, just enough to make sure Batman and Superman end up on the same side when things go bad.

I am leaning more to the theory of past being fixed, but I can see the attraction to the other one of non-linear time that escapes paradox as well... I love contemplating about it and reading literature that deals with that matter. Though it's been a while since I did so the last time.

Multiverse, albeit sometimes confusing as hell, is great.

Interesting... I am tempted to pick some convergence comics up, though I wouldn't know where to start.

I didn't know of this rumor. That would be great. I guess the only way to explain to the audience what it meant is to show it from the other side. Current Flash that Bruce meets in JL to enlist into the League should be the one from what is now a timeline b, right? Knightmare Flash never truly walked through the portal. By the way, what happens to the knightmare Flash, then...?

Nothing happens by accident if we are positive and look for the good in things!

Btw, did you see my other threads too? 'Themes in BvS', 'About Martha', 'Real World/Historical/Pop Culture References in BvS'?

I'm sure you'd like those too!

Heh, nice way of putting it. t:

I checked "About Martha: The 'Masculine' vs 'Feminine' in BvS". I actually posted in that thread in BvS subforums. I will most definitely check out the other ones.

I'm sure I will, as well.