The Dark Knight Rises The Journey's Conclusion: The Fate of Gotham, the Wayne Legacy & Batman Symbol Thread

[Nevincer]

Given the fact we're mererly weeks away from the release date I felt it was more than appropriate, and overdue, for a thread to be created on this subject matter. Based off of the Nolan Team's quotes this is without question the most crucial thing being addressed at the end of this trilogy - how does it all end? What will be the resolution to these characters, some of them who we have followed for three films now? What are the themes and ramifications that Bruce Wayne's story will culminate into with this final swansong of the franchise? What becomes of his mission as well as his own personal struggle between his dual identities?

Well if the production is to be believed we'll find all this out in 21 days time.

To get your minds working on how the story could end in The Dark Knight Rises I'll post some quotes (some old, some new) from the production themselves in this thread, all of them very relevant in my opinion when trying to discern what they have in store for us.

“Without getting into specifics, the key thing that makes the third film a great possibility for us is that we want to finish our story.” “And in viewing it as the finishing of a story rather than infinitely blowing up the balloon and expanding the story... I'm very excited about the end of the film, the conclusion, and what we’ve done with the characters. My brother has come up with some pretty exciting stuff. Unlike the comics, these things don’t go on forever in film and viewing it as a story with an end is useful. Viewing it as an ending, that sets you very much on the right track about the appropriate conclusion and the essence of what tale we're telling.”

"What drew me to Batman in the first place was Bruce Wayne’s story, and that he’s a real character whose story begins in childhood. He’s not a fully formed character like James Bond, so what we’re doing is following the journey of this guy from a child who goes through this horrible experience of becoming this extraordinary character. That, for me, became a three-part story. And obviously the third part becomes the ending of the guy’s story."

“Our ambition for the third movie is to complete a story that has begun.” “This is not starting over, this is not rebooting. We’re finishing something, and keeping a consistency with what’s come before has real value.”

“I read the script 2 weeks ago, and he’s done it. Plain and simple — he’s done it. It’s a phenomenal script. He’s still in the process of cutting it back because it’s a very long script right now, but it’s really phenomenal. And he actually had me go back and wanted me to watch, in IMAX, Batman Begins and The Dark Knight again. When I watched those I had read the script for The Dark Knight Rises and was like, ‘dude, it is a perfect trilogy.’ I think that was his intent, to work off those two pictures — and they are very different pictures. And it’s funny, we all had different opinions about which picture we like better.”

"I know the story and it's a great story. You look at 'The Dark Knight' and you go, 'How's he going to top it?' But I think he has." "The scope of it and also the way he brings it back to 'Batman Begins,' and really what Bruce Wayne discovers about himself, what he learns about himself at the end of this one."

"I will say this: There’s a conclusion. He touches on the first [film] and weaves it in. It resolves. I think it’s a trilogy. It’s just great. The story is terrific. It is just epic."

"We have the third Batman, but then we’ll have to reinvent Batman…Chris Nolan and [producing partner and wife] Emma Thomas will be producing it, so it will be a conversation with them about what the next phase is."

"I mean, honestly, like, wait till you see this movie. Chris is doing insane things in it. And it’s gonna be marvelous and it’s gonna be way beyond what anyone imagines that it could be. You can’t imagine the things that he’s doing, at least I couldn’t until I read the script and I was like, ‘You’re really? Okay, you’re going there!” And it’s Chris Nolan; even the picture that he released of me, that’s not everything. That’s like a tenth of what the catsuit is. And I’ve got to say, I find it frustrating and I know he finds it frustrating, but I also think that he’s having fun with it, kind of like spooning out secrets. He has a lot more control than you think."

"It does harken back to that notion that this guy is originated from great pain and he has to address that — but at what point does it become indulgence? The question is: how long do you allow pain to dominate your life? He has to try and answer that and move on."

“My understanding is that this is the last one. I think it’s appropriate, I think it’s going out at the right time. But…if Chris came to me with a script and said, ‘You know what? There is another story’ then I would love the challenge of making a fourth one work.”

"At least superficially [Gotham is prospering]. The movie deals with the idea that if you've papered over the cracks, then you're just solving problems in a way that may not hold for the future."

"We feel a tremendous challenge and responsibility to finish our story." "We have to give the audience something they haven't seen before, but also fulfil their expectations of what they enjoyed in the first two films. That's the tricky balance with a sequel.""I think we found a way to expand on what we've done before while taking the audience some places they're not really expecting.""With a sequel, there is always the challenge of trying to meet or indeed exceed expections, and some of those are based on the size, scale and world of the film. We travelled to many different places because we wanted to give it a broader canvas." "Our telling of the Batman legend has always been centred on Bruce Wayne's story." "We somewhat left the audience hanging with the last film in terms of Bruce's story, and we want to bring it full circle and have a complete tale. We've a great ending we've been wanting to tell for some years now. We're just thrilled to have been able to bring our story around to its conclusion."

"It is liberating, because we've earned a lot of trust from the audience with the first two films and we feel a lot of pressure not to betray that trust. But at the same time, we also feel that they'll go with us if we want to go to some unusual places. So we're going to take some risks with the film, I think in some really interesting and positive ways."

"The great thing about a trilogy is that it feels like you’ve got a beginning, a middle and an end. It’s like an extended version of a regular film. Once you get into a fourth film then it’s just episodic, and I just can’t see him getting excited about making another film where basically you’re just wheeling in different villains"

"It's the right way to end it — to blow the whole thing up! It's better than trying to spin the thing out indefinitely and make it into the Bond franchise, I mean, they've successfully pulled it off with Bond, but at certain costs, certainly at the cost of continuity. I think with almost every other franchise it's a mistake to try and keep those plates spinning. You want stakes. You want tectonic plates to shift. And as a writer you wanna feel you've worked on a complete story, with a beginning, a middle and an end."

"The final scene of The Dark Knight Rises is exactly that scene we talked about then. It remained completely unchanged. We both knew in our hearts that we were onto something special. I have to tell you, having finally seen everything strung together a little while ago and seeing that scene, I got a complete lump in my throat."

But wait. They don't do this in Hollywood, do they? Take a massively successful superhero franchise and just finish it. That's it. No more. We're done. The. End. Shouldn't these things keep spinning indefinitely, or at least until that don't work anymore? Nolan, it would seem, is committing commercial sacrilege.

"Yup," agrees Goyer. "That's why it's ****ing exciting!"

And just to end on a sentimental quote...

"I will miss Batman very much, it's an incredibly fun arena to work in and incredibly rewarding, so I will look back on it very fondly. But I'm done with it."

This isn't mererly discussion on whether someone dies or personal wishes about what the final scene of the trilogy will be like some other threads, it's all about dissecting the conclusion itself, the final sequence of events and what it all means for the franchise after the film has debuted and we've seen the climax. That's the kind of thread I've felt we needed, similar in quality to the Bruce Wayne characterization one but for the conclusion to the overarching story as a whole, as it truly is to me the most fascinating and exciting thing we've heard about this upcoming film.

So I want to hear what you guys think. Please discuss, postulate and do what you do best but try not to clutter it with any kind of bickering about different wishes.

 

[MrWayne]

Great thread!

I have thought about this so much. So much to say that I know my post will be more of a tangent rant all over the place, so my apologies.

It' really hard for me to say what the ending will be even going by the above quotes. It can go in a number of directions. But my imagination with all I've seen and know paints all these different scenarios.

There was a time where I felt the final scene to TDKR could be some big mushroom cloud where everyone dies. Literally. But then, what kind of ending would that be, if only for shock value, how does it give an ending that closes the story started in BB?

No, I think there will be Major catastrophic destruction done to Gotham, there will be a huge loss of life and casualties. But that's not where our story ends for these characters. It may be the the tie that binds Gotham together and gives closure to our character arcs, or at least those who have managed to survive Banes terror.

Specifically for Bruce, I think he comes to terms with his grief. I think this moment in Gotham's history will be a huge turning point for the city on many levels. This will be a moment that will have many of our characters question their motives and actions. Everyone is being placed in a do or die situations. And that makes for some interesting decision making and story telling. I think that after this people will be in shock and will be so traumatized that it will instill this sense in people that this is what happens when good people do nothing. This will be a learning curve for Gotham and I doubt they will ever let their city get to the point of complete terror and destruction again. Gotham will step up and take back their city.

Bruces story has to come to end. His "journey" as it needs to end also should leave him somewhere. BB was his beginning of a traveling down a road, in TDKR where does that road lead to, where does it leave him? I hope it leads to some affirmations. I hope it leaves him with a sense of clarity of what it is he should be doing with his life. For his sake and essentially the Wayne namesake and the legacy he wants to leave behind. I think the legacy he leaves behind was made possible by the sacrifices he made as Batman and Bruce. This symbol he became will be forever lasting and forever remembered and inspired by a man who made the ultimate sacrifice and took it upon himself to save a city that couldn't save itself at the time. As Bruce Wayne he will use his wealth to help rebuild the city after all the destruction that's left in the aftermath.

I think one fitting ending would be that Bruce realizes that with his wealth he can do more good and make more of a lasting change and difference for generations to come through charity, philanthropy, helping to develop new ideas that can help Gothams economy and change the rich/poor demographic and in turn, Gotham will also have this self realization that THEY ALL need to do their part to make a change. The hell they have all just survived will serve as a memory to what can happen if they dont.

Batman served as a dramatic example of things and lengths some people will do to get things done. But it's a double edged sword. Batman also inspires people to take matters into their own hands on both sides of the playing field. It gives criminals a sense of freedom to do the same and take their own approach to crime up a notch.

The real change needs to come from within. It starts with the people. The choice to do what is right and make the right choices and decisions that serve the interest of the people of the city as a whole and not on selfish desires and needs for power, wealth and control.

Bruce will have a sense of completion by being Gothams savior in this fashion. He will take his place in Gothams history as being it's true benevolent Prince.

 

[Blue Sugar]

The thread itself got me excited (as if I could possibly get even more excited), nice done Nev!

 

[TDKR2012]

Just speculation, * = not sure

- The city will have been almost destroyed (bridges blown, tunnels, highways, football stadium, stock exchange, etc...)
- However, Gotham will have been united to rebuild/come out stronger than before
- Batman will be the city's saviour.

*Gotham will probably know who Batman is

*The Batsignal will shine, even if Batman isn't "alive", as a reminder of his sacrifice/message of hope

- New Mayor



Whatever happens, i'm sure the closing acts of the film will reflect where we are as a society. given the current economic state, and division throughout the US, it wants us to be left off with hope, hope of rebuilding and coming out stronger than before, like the Chrysler commercial with clint eastwood

 

[jonnywhc]

Like iv said afew times before -

Bruce's parents died because of the state the city was in. Chill pulled the trigger, but decaying Gotham pushed him to it. Later, Gotham hasn't changed and Bruce dons the cowl to rid the city of the mob - as this is viewed as its main problem. BB finishes with Gotham saved from Ras but with criminals upping their game abit, along with the Joker. By the end of TDK Joker is in jail and the mob have been brought to their knees, problem solved...right? The city is on a moral high after the White Knight dies. Batman cleverly covered up the one true thing that Joker succeed in..Dent's crimes, but they are still there, as Nolan said..the cracks are covered but - for how long? Bane comes in and shatters this, revealing what really happened...the divide between the rich and poor explodes and its a WAR. How Bane is beaten doesn't really matter..cos he isn't really fighting Bane, hes fighting for Gotham. This is why the only thing that will bring the city together is for the poor to know that Gotham's number 1 rich boy is actually Batman, and for the rich to know you can lend a helping hand once in awhile, just like Bruce did.

The TRUE problem is the people of Gotham. This means he must either die and be unmasked or unmask himself. To inspire! Do do more than just Batman, or just Bruce - he has to use both!

I love how Batman is still fighting Ras and joker in Rises. Ras in how he said Gotham must be destroyed first to purge the evil, and Joker in how he said that people are inherently bad. This is why this trilogy is amazing. Batman is still trying to prove them both wrong. At this time, he has lost to both Ras and Joker.

Some people need to realize what Bruce's mission in the Nolan trilogy is, and that Batman isn't a baton to be passed on. Nolan has stated, as Nev posted, that they aren't going to keep blowing the bubble up. This film certainly wont end like any Batman film we have seen before.

 

[Mandalore464]

Edit : Deleted

 

[KidHolland8]

By the end of the movie, I believe Blake will be on his way to becoming Commissioner, Gordon will be Mayor, and Bruce will be outed as Batman.

 

[Blue Sugar]

At the end of The Dark Knight, Batman was a watchful protector and a silent guardian, he was no longer just Batman. That's why I think the title is The Dark Knight Rises and not Batman Rises, at the end of TDKR he is beyond even that and has brought the city back like his original plan was, while Bruce himself being at peace with his own inner demon, retiring and living outside of Gotham under an anonymous identity.

To remind themselves of what Batman/Bruce did for Gotham, the Bat-signal is ordered to be on 24/7. Gordon and Blake are assigned by Batman to keep Gotham safe from itself.

Bruce being at peace, because this time unlike TDK, he fixed Gotham with the truth, fixing the crack for real, not just tapering over it.

 

[Nevincer]

The thread itself got me excited (as if I could possibly get even more excited), nicely done Nev!

Great thread!

Thanks! I've been meaning to create this thread for a while but never got around to it until today, and there's been some fabulous responses thus far that have exceeded my expectations so I'm glad I did. Keep it up, guys!

 

[craigdbfan]

Great idea for a thread. Some good discussion should be had here after July 20th.

 

[Billy the Poet]

What I personally think of the trilogy is:

1. In Batman Begins, Ras states that the city of Gotham is longing for a new power to come and set it on the right path through destruction. He basically sees Gotham best in ruins. Batman contradicts this idea by his view that Gotham needs hope and savior. In the end, he proves it to Ras.

2. In The Dark Knight, the Joker is a chatic force with the thesis that it is in human nature to be self-destructive and egoistical when threatened. He says 'all it takes is a little push' in his reference to madness. Batman again succeeds to oppose this idea by proving that people are not the way a psycho like the Joker would think. However, for this, he loses Dent.

Interesting to note, that in TDK, Rachel leaves a letter to Bruce. In that letter, she says she believes in the day when Gotham no more needs Batman may come someday. However, she doubts the day Bruce no more needs Batman will ever happen. This clearly sets Batman in his internal conflict. So, I assume it also defines the next inner obstacle Bruce has to overcome, i.e. leave Batman as an alter ego only, not who he truly is.

Thus, I think in the end, whether Bruce dies or not, he will be Bruce first and only Batman then. From what I see in Nolan's vision, it is Bruce, who created Batman, not vice versa.

 

[NateHevens]

First off, I've said it before and I'm going to hold on to it until July 20 (and after if it's never entirely addressed in the film): Bruce does not retire Batman immediately after TDK. I really do think he continues on for at least a couple years before being forced out by whatever accumulation of physical and mental injuries puts him on the cane.

The only reason we don't see Batman going after "small-time criminals" in BB or TDK is because it isn't important to the story... but just the very fact that even drug dealers are scared of him says that he does patrol... maybe even as innocuous as gliding overhead just to scare them. They can't be afraid of him if they don't have some encounter with him; they've seen him. They know he exists; he isn't just a bogey-man told to children to keep on the straight and narrow. He's real. And they know that.

He gives the cops someone to chase, most likely for Gordon's benefit, and to keep up the act. Think about it... if he disappears right after, people are going to start asking questions. I mean, they'll be asking questions anyways, but at least the questions are geared more towards why the cops haven't caught Batman yet, as opposed to "why did Batman disappear? Are we even getting the whole truth?"

Criminals would not just disappear. The Dent Act would first have to be written, then passed, then enforced. I said it before and I'll say it again: whatever else it is, the Dent Act is Batman's baby. It was his idea. The whole idea... framing Batman for those murders and ensuring that Harvey Dent is seen as a martyr... a hero... was all Batman. There would be no Dent Act if not for Batman. He is most certainly going to ensure that his baby remains intact. Wherever the band-aid appears to be coming loose, Batman is certainly going to be around to make it stick again.

So again... Nolan's Batman probably does have a Rogue's Gallery, but filled with average crime bosses and drug dealers and so on, instead of the icons we know from the comics.

Ultimately, the reason I don't think Batman is gone the entire eight years is the same reason Travesty, in thinking that he is gone the entire eight years, hates the idea of Batman being gone at the end of TDKR... he's active for one year, then gone for eight, then comes back one more time for, at most, a few months, only to be gone again?

Travesty is right to think that's stupid... because it is. But I square it away easily; because I don't think he's gone the entire eight years. I think he's active for a good chunk of those eight years, and only retires because his very human body just can't handle it anymore... which is proven when Bane (and probably Catwoman) force him back into action for the sewer fight.

This leads in to the ending. I do think Bruce is going to lose someone very close to him; I actually do think Alfred will die, even though I desperately don't want him to. I desperately want Alfred to survive. I'm not sure if I'll be able to handle that death. The problem is, we know Lucius won't die, I'm not convinced that Gordon will die, and Nolan is not going to kill off brand new characters he introduces in TDKR... that would be very strange.

This really leaves Alfred with the short straw. I can't think of a better way for the audience to be forced to hate Bane. If he kills Alfred, that will surely prove that there's simply nothing redeemable about Bane. He is evil incarnate.

Like I said... I really don't want it to happen. I am crossing my fingers that I'm wrong on this one. It will make the movie very emotionally taxing. I'm going to want to kill Bane...

And possibly Nolan.

But seriously...

I think the final act of TDKR could be as bitter as it is triumphant, if not moreso, because it might have the death of Alfred hanging over it.

Finally, I think that final major fight will be something we have never seen before in Batman history, and not just because it will take place during the day. I think it will be brand new because it won't be Batman fighting Bane; it will be Bruce Wayne fighting Bane. Yes, he'll be dressed as Batman. He'll be wearing the costume. But everyone, both the good guys and the bad guys, will know. And I think this may be why that final fight occurs. I think Batman's unmasking is what actually forces Bane's plan to implode. It will turn his entire scheme on its head, exposing everything he told Gotham up to that point as a lie. I do think Bruce will be villified along with the rest of Gotham's rich, but when the citizens (including the rich) see that it's been Bruce Wayne all these years who's been protecting them, they will turn on Bane and his army. So Bane becomes desperate, decides to go the brutal approach, and that final fight occurs.

But I don't think Batman will kill Bane. I'm starting to toy with the idea of Tatelia not being in Gotham for Batman. Marion continues to insist that the character she plays is good. Well, what if, at least that far, she isn't lying? What if Tatelia wants Bane? Perhaps she really does fall for Bruce. Perhaps those feelings are entirely genuine. This would, after all, fit the comics, as Talia truly did love Bruce Wayne.

Maybe she doesn't blame Bruce for her dad's death. Maybe... just maybe... she blames her dad.

And perhaps her mission to go after Bane is one given to her when he was kicked out of the LoS initially. In the trailers and in spy videos we know that she's driving the bomb truck. But why is she driving it? Where is she driving it to? It appears that she at least pretends to help Bane at first... perhaps she puts up a second charade as a bad guy in order to get into the bomb truck specifically so that she can make it an easy target for Batman.

So I'm starting to think that maybe she will kill Bane.

Then, finally, Batman himself. I'm still not sure what I think about the fate of Bruce Wayne, but I'm pretty much convinced that Batman will die, most likely by getting the bomb away from Gotham. I honestly would love it if the fate of Bruce Wayne is left ambiguous. I think it would be cool if something was done to leave the audience questioning if Bruce Wayne is really dead, like an unknown person leaving the cowl on Bruce's grave, or looking at a statue of Bruce Wayne/Batman (maybe it's Bruce wearing the Batsuit except for the cowl, which he's holding in his hands), or something like that.

Either way, I don't see any way around it; when the credits roll on TDKR, Nolan's Batman will be gone. Dead, retired... it doesn't matter. we already know that the WB execs were uneasy about it when they first got the proposal because there was simply no way to wrangle a fourth movie out of it; the ending was definitive and final. To me that says that, somehow, Batman is no more when those credits roll; so that is fully what I'm expecting.

 

[CapedCrusader14]

Personally, I believe the Batman will die and live on as a "everlasting symbol" that will cause the people of Gotham to rise up into action, not behind a false hope like Harvey. It's said that despite Gotham's "peace time" in the 8 year gap, the city is seething and rotting underneath. It's clear that taking the fall for Harvey was a short-term solution for a permanent problem.

But with Batman's possible sacrifice for the people, such an action will shake the people to take action and hold onto their city.

Even though the Batman may die, Bruce can still live (which is where my hopeful Bruce at his parents grave scene comes in at the end). He can live a life free of his burden and the pain he's felt.

 

[NateHevens]

Even though the Batman may die, Bruce can still live (which is where my hopeful Bruce at his parents grave scene comes in at the end). He can live a life free of his burden and the pain he's felt.

I actually think that scene, if it does happen, will be before the big fight. Bruce will be going to his parents' graves to say goodbye, becaue he knows the sacrifice he'll have to make.

 

[CapedCrusader14]

I actually think that scene, if it does happen, will be before the big fight. Bruce will be going to his parents' graves to say goodbye, becaue he knows the sacrifice he'll have to make.

That could work too. Either scenario would make me very happy.

 

[IronMike]

I wonder how literal Oldman's reference to "what Bruce will learn about himself at the end of this one" is. Is it something tangible like a secret about himself or his past that he discovers, or him coming to grips with learning how to let go of the anger that he has held in since his parent's death.

 

[CapedCrusader14]

He'll probably learn to let go of the pain and anger over his parents death.

As Christian Bale has said in interviews: "How long can you let pain rule your life?"

 

[kvz5]

Whether it's by his death, retirement, or go on as Batman, I do think that Bruce will find peace and happiness by the end of the movie.

 

[IronMike]

Whether it's by his death, retirement, or go on as Batman, I do think that Bruce will find peace and happiness by the end of the movie.

Hope so.....I would say that he deserves it after everything he has been through. When confronted at the restaurant by Bruce, Falcone told him he didnt understand the underworld, so he learned it. Ra's told him to mind his surroundings, and he ended up showing Ra's how to mind his own surroundings . Joker told him that people will only be as good as you allow them to be, and Bruce showed him that people have the ability to be even better than they imagined themselves to be. Eight years later, Joker's prediction of how Gotham's spirit will break completely when they see the "real" Harvey Dent seems to come to fruition in this movie when Bane exposes it:

THIS seems to be the next thing Bruce has to overcome....clean up (with some help from the good people of Gotham) the mess that the Joker started and Bane has come in to Gotham to expose. After that, what else is there to do for him? Hopefully this is when that gigantic chip on his shoulder starts to fade and he feels like he can FINALLY have a normal life as the REAL Bruce Wayne.

 

[AnneFan]

As I've said on other threads, I think Bruce will find peace, not in the RIP sense - and retire from Batman.

 

[IronMike]

I do agree though with the theory that many share here that Gotham will have to know Bruce is behind the mask before they stand behind him in fighting against Bane and his army

 

[BatmanBeyond]

He'll probably learn to let go of the pain and anger over his parents death.

As Christian Bale has said in interviews: "How long can you let pain rule your life?"

That's my rationale as well.

Whether it's by his death, retirement, or go on as Batman, I do think that Bruce will find peace and happiness by the end of the movie.

I'd very much like that and think that it would truly be a satisfying conclusion for Bruce Wayne's arc in these movies.

 

[AnneFan]

I do agree though with the theory that many share here that Gotham will have to know Bruce is behind the mask before they stand behind him in fighting against Bane and his army

I side strongly with the identity reveal argument as well. Truths being revealed (Dent, Rachel's letter, etc).

 

[The Guard]

I don't feel like we needed this thread based on some of the existing ones, but...

I think one fitting ending would be that Bruce realizes that with his wealth he can do more good and make more of a lasting change and difference for generations to come through charity, philanthropy, helping to develop new ideas that can help Gothams economy and change the rich/poor demographic and in turn, Gotham will also have this self realization that THEY ALL need to do their part to make a change. The hell they have all just survived will serve as a memory to what can happen if they dont.

This is one of those elements of the mythology that it surprises me that its taken Nolan's Wayne this long to figure out. If we don't see some semblance of Wayne's charitable acts in the third film, Nolan and his team will have pretty much failed as creators in crafting their adaption's complete "ending". Seeing as how that element is already written for them in the comics. Ideally Wayne would do good work as Bruce Wayne, and stand ready as Batman for the weirder threats. Which is also already in the comics. We'll see.

 

[Nevincer]

I don't feel like we needed this thread based on some of the existing ones...

What existing ones? The most similar ones I can think of were based off of a facet of the ending, or a newbie postulating their opinion on what they think should happen as it's own thread and users going off from there without any kind of structure or cohesion. I don't believe we've had a thread before that is both designed and focused on discussing the whole shebang, and if we did it was short lived just like all the others. I thought it was a travesty something like this was missing on page 1, and with the film so close I think it can endure in an official capacity as we'll all know the ending soon and be able to discuss it here.

Better this than necroing some crappy thread that got derailed by people bickering about each other's desires for the conclusion. There's no point for that kind of conflict here, it'll all soon be upon us.