The Dark Knight Rises The Literary Aspects of TDKR

Diemtay

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I think it would be good if we have a thread in which we can talk about what we hope/expect/spectulate to see in TDKR in terms of the story strictly from a literary perspective. Things such as literary elements, literary techniques, plot structure, themes, motifs, dialogue, pacing, character analysis’s, and just the overall core of the story itself. I know many people on here are writers, so this thread is for you!

With TDK, after Joker released his video to Gothem, the story was primarily structured around the Joker’s attacks/threats on Gothem. Upon the realization of every attack, a new threat would rise, and the suspense would gradually build towards it, which is why some people commented on how the film seemed like it was "constant climax". Nolan obviously won’t repeat the same story structure, so I’m interested to see how it plays out in this next film, especially to see how he depicts the relationship between Bruce and Selina.

In regards to themes, I’m extreamly excited to see where Nolan goes with this film. BB and TDK especially were just such deep films in terms of thematic depth, and Nolan focused on very interesting ideas and philosophies. With Bane and Selina’s characters, what type of themes do you suspect may be expressed through their characters?
 
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I'd love to see the story go a non-linear direction again. If Batman is really gonna be out of commission it would be a good chance to get some character development but also keep the plot moving and in focus.
 
Do you mean their intentions that results in their actions? I mean Scarecrow intention was use to fear as a weapon for Gotham's ranson. Joker's intention was to cause chaos because he thought the order that Gotham has was fake.
 
I'd love to see the story go a non-linear direction again. If Batman is really gonna be out of commission it would be a good chance to get some character development but also keep the plot moving and in focus.
I'm definitly betting it will be non-linear, considering a young Ras will be in this film, so they'll need to work it into the story, and because Nolan has done non-linear structures for every one of his movies aside from Insomnia and TDK. I think the addition of a young Ras will be the perfect oppertunity for Nolan to do his signature non-linear format.

Do you mean their intentions that results in their actions? I mean Scarecrow intention was use to fear as a weapon for Gotham's ranson. Joker's intention was to cause chaos because he thought the order that Gotham has was fake.
Well not just their intentions, but their over-all philosophies and outlooks on life. It's their philosophies that drive them to do the things they do, which creates the essence of the films. Also the actions they do also present themes as well. The great thing about literature is that themes, motifs, and symbolism can come from so many different sources, which makes analyzing it so great.

Nolan is known for creating very deep, very intresting characters, and I'm looking foward to how he portrays Bane and Catwoman.
 
I think the Father/son Motif will play out in this one a lot more, hopefully.

In BB we had Thomas/Bruce as well as Ra's/Batman

in TDK we has Gordon/James as well as some Alfred/Bruce

I'm excited to see what's coming next.
 
Screenwriting.com had a podcast with Jonathan Nolan who explained that when writing the characters of the films they would read as many comics as it would take in order to become aware of what truly defined the character. Harvey he said was a man defined solely by tragedy, or the tragedy of being undone by one's one goodness. Where as batman was defined by a very primal sense of social justice.

As I have said countless times before i think that both the Nolan boys are influenced heavily by Dostoevsky's Brother's K and I look to find more of the influence in here.
 
I think the Father/son Motif will play out in this one a lot more, hopefully.
I hope so too, but something that bothers me is we have heard next to nothing about Linus Roache reprising the role of Thomas Wayne in this movie. :csad:
 
I hope so too, but something that bothers me is we have heard next to nothing about Linus Roache reprising the role of Thomas Wayne in this movie. :csad:


I'm crossing my fingers that this is a very well kept secret
 
Plot structure/pacing: Since flashbacks are in the film, we automatically know TDKR will have a very different pacing to TDK's linear, fast-paced thrill ride. However, Nolan did mention in a recent interview (the one after he watched BB and TK back-to-back with his team) that he likes TDK's approach (I guess in terms of suspense and such) more. A combo of TDK's more tense and consequential pace, interspersed with BB's epic, emotional arc with intertwining flashbacks would be perfect.

Themes: Fear, Chaos, and...Oblivion? If Bane represents his namesake (destruction), then Batman will be fighting for his very existence as a man and a symbol in Gotham. What is Batman truly worth? I'm sure Nolan will also challenge batman's morality and sense of justice...especially since he is using Catwoman and Bane. Bane was born into injustice, into slavery. He had no choice. So many possibilities.

Motifs: Perhaps the flashbacks will recall a character dynamic reflecting Bruce. Certain recurring elements during Bane and Catwoman's scenes may reflect Bruce's own life.

Dialogue: Should be good, but I am hoping the theme isn't consistently verbalized as it was in TDK ("I'm an agent of chaos"...which actually still rocked due to Ledger's delivery) and obviously BB ("fear"...every other line haha just kidding).

Overall core of the story itself: Nolan's films capture the beginning of Batman's life--his origin as a lost child, a confused young man, his training with Ra's, his symbolic presence as Batman, his symbolic fall due to the Joker, and now what I believe will be his struggle to keep fighting and surviving despite the fact that Batman is a murderer in the eyes of Gotham. Each film defines the character, but they're all part of one long journey to becoming the Batman we know.
 
I'd be very pleased to see Thomas Wayne make a return, he was an awesome guy, probably the most kind-hearted character in Nolan's Batman movies.
 
You know I always liked to think that in TDK, Bruce saw a little of his father in Harvey Dent, hence revering him as much as he did before his transformation into Two-Face. Harvey must have been like the Thomas Wayne of the modern times for Gotham.
 
I'd be very pleased to see Thomas Wayne make a return, he was an awesome guy, probably the most kind-hearted character in Nolan's Batman movies.

Something a toughened up Bruce could use a touch of I think in order to bring his character back into focus of being "good".

Not just a symbol of fear but, as a man a symbol of virtuosity and hope for normal people.
 
Linus Roache was fantastic. I have no idea how Nolan could work in flashbacks of Thomas Wayne and Ra's, but, if he has found a good story, I cannot wait for it!

I always felt Ra's had a ton of potential in BB (due to his role as mentor/villain and being played by Neeson), but he just wasn't given enough to truly chew on. We really didn't get to know the man, like we did with Harvey Dent. I feel like even though Ledger's Joker had less to say, he was given enough meaty material to create a fully 3-dimensional character.

Perhaps TDKR will give us that missing dimension. I'm skeptical, but it'd be remarkable if it actually changed how we saw Ra's in BB.
 
Well, Linus has nothing to do since they canceled Law & Order. He was casted onto an HBO show back in 2010 but pilots are usually 2-6 episodes, so I think it's possible.
 
BB is saved from itself. TDK has Harvey Dent and Gordon stand in as the white knight elected to save the town from itself. In TDKR I think Batman imitated the manhunt on himselfso that Gotham didn't pin all of its hopes on depending on a police force or superhero to do all of its saving for it. He is trying to get the citizens of Gotham to stand on their own two feet and to fight crime in their own homes and neighbors and to do more out in their own community, by forcing them to be in fear of himself.

Catwoman thinks she can be just like Batman because she is in a grey area of committing crimes and kind acts according to her own conscious. I think her type of thinking will be resolved because she does not encourage the community to do their own empowered fight and she is only taking her anger out on the city.
 
If I could ask you guys to answer in one sentence what you thought both BB and TDK were about thematically what would you say?
 
fighting the monster in the man

occasionally fighting the man in the monster
 
If I could ask you guys to answer in one sentence what you thought both BB and TDK were about thematically what would you say?
lol, impossible. There's just too much going on in both films.
 
lol, impossible. There's just too much going on in both films.

Yeah but the arc isn't muddled even if there are multiple themes, and there are many. There is a central question being asked in both films. I have to agree with this interviewer on some level

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKnzchqkNs0

Then I wrote some of my thoughts down awhile ago on both films.

Here is what I wrote on the thematic in Begins.


Batman Begins

Christopher Nolan takes from the comics the already complex questions that have been faced by the character for 70 years of history and presents them in a way that is both relevant and relatable to the viewer. In asking how Nolan puts his staple on the character in a way that no one else has one hast to look at not only what this film is about and is saying about the character but what is being said about the character over all the films that are here.

Most of the critics are split on the film. Some state that the film is a critique of our current society and that it is motivated by an undercurrent of fear. Justice is also another huge theme. The film asks question on whether institutions created by man can ever truly create a system that can effect justice on its society. Then there is the constant theme of fatherhood and the meaning that a role model has on young Bruce’s life. In order to figure out what the film is truly saying about the character the relationship between the themes need to be examined.

Fear

The films shows us that one of the most powerful motivating emotions is one of fear. Its quite obvious that Bruce was afraid of the bats and feels that it was this weakness that led to the deaths of his parents. However fear is not just his weakness it is his strength. Batman is constantly reveled as the most fearsome of the superheroes. He utilizes fear against his opponents and without this fear he could not be the symbol that prevents crime from occurring. When Thomas Wayne tells young Bruce that all creatures feel fear, especially the scary ones he is not just talking about the bats but also of batman himself. Afraid of the act that took away his life and loved ones batman becomes completely driven toward ending those acts of injustice.

Later in the film when the District Attorney is trying to get Chill out on early parole he argues that Chill did not kill Bruce's parents out of greed but of desperation. Desperation is a fear of death. it was fear that took Bruce’s life away and created batman both externally and internally. It is interesting that Bruce’s quest is to turn fear against those that prey upon the fearful when those preying are in fact also fearful. Fear is used by the Scarecrow as a weapon and ends up being hired by the man that trains Bruce, Ras al Ghul, who uses fear to destroy a society so that a new one may grow. In this film fear is an emotional that is used by every character in order to accomplish their goals.

Nolan's dialogue is very clever, throughout the film he alludes to fears ability to completely distort someone’s mind. I believe that the over all message of Nolan's Batman films are making a statement on ideals and people who try to attain them. Fear is an important factor that creates ideals within our minds. "Ras Al Ghul rescued us from the darkest places of our minds", "if I hadn't you mind would now be lost", "feel fear cloud your mind", are all examples showing the emotions relationship to the architecture of the mind. "You must become more than just a man in the mind of your opponent". The "How" of becoming more than a man is through the use of this primordial emotion fear.

Justice

If fear is the how then, Justice is the why. Justice is not an emotion it is a virtue and something that men are not born with but do yearn for. The discussion on Justice begins with the scene in which Bruce is on the train with his parents and the father tells Bruce that the train and other things he has done to the city has been done in trying to make the city is a better place. Later, Ras states that Justice is balance and he is correct. The legal definition of Justice is to give one their due. Justice is an act that keeps society in a balance so that everyone may live together in harmony. Without this balance there would be chaos and in that chaos one cannot appreciate life, be happy, or attain catharsis.

Our being human allows us certain rights when someone violates those rights it creates a fault and injury. Laws are then set in place to right those wrongs and maintain that balance. In Begins, the discussion of what justice truly is fought on the terms of how to keep that balance in place. Ras believes that criminals must be eliminated from the system while Bruce argues that they have rights as well. Thus begins Bruce’s quest to take down injustice and at the same time not lose himself by overstepping his bounds. A respect for law and order from outside that same law. Batman then exists as a sort of paradox but exist he must.

Gordon, Rachel, and Bruce's parents are all good people who try to fix the system from within the system, however they are not able to do so and most of them die in the process. Bruce seeks to get immediate vengeance and is stopped by Rachel who tells him that there are bigger reasons that caused his parents deaths. With this lesson Bruce realizes the importance of law and code even if the system trying to establish it has become completely corrupted. It is important to note that in order to stop corruption you need to have something to replace it with. So this sends Bruce on a spiritual journey, in which he meets Ras and the League of Shadows.

Many criticize this part of the film as it has a secret society of ninjas. Whether it is possible for something like this to exist is not important. What is the fact that Bruce is attempting to fight and recreate an institution using another institution. The League is another example that no system is perfectly just. In order to make a better more perfect union in Gotham, Bruce has found another union completely devoted to his cause. And he ends up breaking that union over his one rule. It could be said that the League really is trying to attain the level of justice described in Rachel's speech. Though they allow vengeance they really to seek to keep balance and harmony as well. A moral pragmatist would argue that Gotham will eventually destroy itself, that all institutions will break down over time, and that limping on is only what happens when men try to fight what will inevitably happen even if they try to maintain that union. This is how Nolan brings up the biggest theme in his Batman films and probably all of the Batman lore. The constant battle between idealism and pragmatism.

Patriarchs

Fathers are all over the place throughout the story of Batman. This shouldn't be any surprise as it was the death of his father that triggered his existence. In order to existentially examine who batman is that becomes very important. many psychologist would say that batman is a man who is on a spiritual journey to reunite with his father. This journey can be examined through western thought as a journey to a catharsis that is Christian in nature, or it can be examined through eastern oriental thought. Children are always affected by their parents actions. The film chooses Fatherhood over motherhood for a couple of practical reasons. One is that Bruce is a boy and they typically look to their fathers as role models. Second is the stereo type that comes along with fatherhood as a authoritative role. Throughout the Judeo-Christian tradition, families have been called the building block of society, and although in our modern pragmatism we realize that things in family life are never ideal. It is still important that through the copulation between a man and a woman is how life is created and the society survived.

Fatherhood is in a way a representation of all forms of authority. Freud talked about this through his psycho analysis. Here authority is both good and bad. In begins, the fathers take all forms of authority; parent, family leader, teacher, governmental leader, and religious authority with a possible metaphor for God himself. All of these father figures have something that they give to Bruce, they all affect his psychology, even Falcone. Thomas Wayne’s plight for social justice and final words are immortalized in Bruce’s mind. In this way Thomas Wayne is the ideal authority in every way, a perfect father because he is dead. Within Bruce's mind the memory of Thomas is the ideal that Bruce uses in order to become incorruptible.

In his search for a perfect father he gets many representations that fill up the void. Alfred fills in as a father that protects the image of the true father. Critics attribute Alfred to a maternal type of authority, but none the less he still watches over Bruce like a father. It is Alfred who knows the truth before we do. The father lives on in Bruce and therefore Alfred fulfills his duties of look over the legacy of Thomas Wayne by protecting the son. This coincides with many new age religions that examine the father and son bloodline as some sort of mortal immortality. Rachel takes on a similar role in protecting Bruce by referring to the idealized image he was.

The other large father figure in the film was of course Ducard/Ras. He fits into a spiritual mentor and governmental leader as well. He isn't a completely corrupt father figure as Falcone might be considered. Falcone being a Don fits into a completely corrupt role. Ras on the other hand represents a different type of fatherhood. One of liberation from those that impair us from becoming who we are meant to be. Instead of protecting Bruce as a the sacred vessel of his fathers legacy. Ras gives Bruce a path that is both contradictive to the Judeo Christian tradition and in a strange way coincides with it. The great novelist Dostoevsky (who I think seriously has had an impact on Nolan's writing) wrote a book The Brothers Karamazov, which many consider as the first and possibly best existential novel. The book's plot is about the murder of a father who had three sons. Though none of the brothers did it and the father was a corrupt figure, they come to realize that in a way by rejecting his tradition and not respecting where they came from makes them responsible for their parent's deaths.

Ras takes a position opposite of this. In a way he tries to get Bruce to overcome the guilt and fear left by certain events in Bruce’s life, so that Bruce can finally let go of his father and become his own man. The Wayne legacy cannot continue if Bruce continues to live in the past. This is a position held by existentialist Fredriche Nietzsche who was inspired by Dostoevsky. Nietzsche believed that in order to attain godhood, one must destroy the things of the past in his life until he becomes a blank slate on which he can move forward. Progress toward a more perfect union. In order to become the ideal Bruce must destroy his father, then his father, and then his god. The film does follow this progression in which as Wayne manor is burning down(in a very similar to how his mentors dojo was burnt down), Bruce makes a stand against his former mentor.

Though there is a spiritual journey of death and rebirth at the end of the film when Bruce finds his fathers stethoscope, the audience can see that there is love for his father. A common instrument of a doctor it is a symbol of healing, brought on by the memory of his true father. This leads me to believe the film has a message stating that love is important in keeping his father alive. We can always remove the people of the past if we do not love them. Just as we can destroy society if we do not love the union it preserves.

The Good People Do Nothing

The message that the film finally puts out is one of action. Nolan finds the fact that people still like Batman as adults interesting. So he uses it to challenge us. In order to attain our ideals of Justice, peace and a fulfilling life one must overcome their fear. Batman Begins is a story that asks for introspection. As Bruce follows Campbell’s the hero's journey, he becomes a representation of the audience. The words and lesson he learns are meant for us. What we really fear is inside us, in our minds, and if we truly desire a better life then we have face ourselves. The film ends on a note of hope, one that states change is possible if you overcome your fear. In order to keep Hope alive we must act
.
 
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Yeah but the arc isn't muddled even if there are multiple themes, and there are many. There is a central question being asked in both films. I have to agree with this interviewer on some level

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKnzchqkNs0

Then I wrote some of my thoughts down awhile ago on both films.

Here is what I wrote on the thematic in Begins.


Batman Begins

Christopher Nolan takes from the comics the already complex questions that have been faced by the character for 70 years of history and presents them in a way that is both relevant and relatable to the viewer. In asking how Nolan puts his staple on the character in a way that no one else has one hast to look at not only what this film is about and is saying about the character but what is being said about the character over all the films that are here.

Most of the critics are split on the film. Some state that the film is a critique of our current society and that it is motivated by an undercurrent of fear. Justice is also another huge theme. The film asks question on whether institutions created by man can ever truly create a system that can effect justice on its society. Then there is the constant theme of fatherhood and the meaning that a role model has on young Bruce’s life. In order to figure out what the film is truly saying about the character the relationship between the themes need to be examined.

Fear

The films shows us that one of the most powerful motivating emotions is one of fear. Its quite obvious that Bruce was afraid of the bats and feels that it was this weakness that led to the deaths of his parents. However fear is not just his weakness it is his strength. Batman is constantly reveled as the most fearsome of the superheroes. He utilizes fear against his opponents and without this fear he could not be the symbol that prevents crime from occurring. When Thomas Wayne tells young Bruce that all creatures feel fear, especially the scary ones he is not just talking about the bats but also of batman himself. Afraid of the act that took away his life and loved ones batman becomes completely driven toward ending those acts of injustice.

Later in the film when the District Attorney is trying to get Chill out on early parole he argues that Chill did not kill Bruce's parents out of greed but of desperation. Desperation is a fear of death. it was fear that took Bruce’s life away and created batman both externally and internally. It is interesting that Bruce’s quest is to turn fear against those that prey upon the fearful when those preying are in fact also fearful. Fear is used by the Scarecrow as a weapon and ends up being hired by the man that trains Bruce, Ras al Ghul, who uses fear to destroy a society so that a new one may grow. In this film fear is an emotional that is used by every character in order to accomplish their goals.

Nolan's dialogue is very clever, throughout the film he alludes to fears ability to completely distort someone’s mind. I believe that the over all message of Nolan's Batman films are making a statement on ideals and people who try to attain them. Fear is an important factor that creates ideals within our minds. "Ras Al Ghul rescued us from the darkest places of our minds", "if I hadn't you mind would now be lost", "feel fear cloud your mind", are all examples showing the emotions relationship to the architecture of the mind. "You must become more than just a man in the mind of your opponent". The "How" of becoming more than a man is through the use of this primordial emotion fear.

Justice

If fear is the how then, Justice is the why. Justice is not an emotion it is a virtue and something that men are not born with but do yearn for. The discussion on Justice begins with the scene in which Bruce is on the train with his parents and the father tells Bruce that the train and other things he has done to the city has been done in trying to make the city is a better place. Later, Ras states that Justice is balance and he is correct. The legal definition of Justice is to give one their due. Justice is an act that keeps society in a balance so that everyone may live together in harmony. Without this balance there would be chaos and in that chaos one cannot appreciate life, be happy, or attain catharsis.

Our being human allows us certain rights when someone violates those rights it creates a fault and injury. Laws are then set in place to right those wrongs and maintain that balance. In Begins, the discussion of what justice truly is fought on the terms of how to keep that balance in place. Ras believes that criminals must be eliminated from the system while Bruce argues that they have rights as well. Thus begins Bruce’s quest to take down injustice and at the same time not lose himself by overstepping his bounds. A respect for law and order from outside that same law. Batman then exists as a sort of paradox but exist he must.

Gordon, Rachel, and Bruce's parents are all good people who try to fix the system from within the system, however they are not able to do so and most of them die in the process. Bruce seeks to get immediate vengeance and is stopped by Rachel who tells him that there are bigger reasons that caused his parents deaths. With this lesson Bruce realizes the importance of law and code even if the system trying to establish it has become completely corrupted. It is important to note that in order to stop corruption you need to have something to replace it with. So this sends Bruce on a spiritual journey, in which he meets Ras and the League of Shadows.

Many criticize this part of the film as it has a secret society of ninjas. Whether it is possible for something like this to exist is not important. What is the fact that Bruce is attempting to fight and recreate an institution using another institution. The League is another example that no system is perfectly just. In order to make a better more perfect union in Gotham, Bruce has found another union completely devoted to his cause. And he ends up breaking that union over his one rule. It could be said that the League really is trying to attain the level of justice described in Rachel's speech. Though they allow vengeance they really to seek to keep balance and harmony as well. A moral pragmatist would argue that Gotham will eventually destroy itself, that all institutions will break down over time, and that limping on is only what happens when men try to fight what will inevitably happen even if they try to maintain that union. This is how Nolan brings up the biggest theme in his Batman films and probably all of the Batman lore. The constant battle between idealism and pragmatism.

Patriarchs

Fathers are all over the place throughout the story of Batman. This shouldn't be any surprise as it was the death of his father that triggered his existence. In order to existentially examine who batman is that becomes very important. many psychologist would say that batman is a man who is on a spiritual journey to reunite with his father. This journey can be examined through western thought as a journey to a catharsis that is Christian in nature, or it can be examined through eastern oriental thought. Children are always affected by their parents actions. The film chooses Fatherhood over motherhood for a couple of practical reasons. One is that Bruce is a boy and they typically look to their fathers as role models. Second is the stereo type that comes along with fatherhood as a authoritative role. Throughout the Judeo-Christian tradition, families have been called the building block of society, and although in our modern pragmatism we realize that things in family life are never ideal. It is still important that through the copulation between a man and a woman is how life is created and the society survived.

Fatherhood is in a way a representation of all forms of authority. Freud talked about this through his psycho analysis. Here authority is both good and bad. In begins, the fathers take all forms of authority; parent, family leader, teacher, governmental leader, and religious authority with a possible metaphor for God himself. All of these father figures have something that they give to Bruce, they all affect his psychology, even Falcone. Thomas Wayne’s plight for social justice and final words are immortalized in Bruce’s mind. In this way Thomas Wayne is the ideal authority in every way, a perfect father because he is dead. Within Bruce's mind the memory of Thomas is the ideal that Bruce uses in order to become incorruptible.

In his search for a perfect father he gets many representations that fill up the void. Alfred fills in as a father that protects the image of the true father. Critics attribute Alfred to a maternal type of authority, but none the less he still watches over Bruce like a father. It is Alfred who knows the truth before we do. The father lives on in Bruce and therefore Alfred fulfills his duties of look over the legacy of Thomas Wayne by protecting the son. This coincides with many new age religions that examine the father and son bloodline as some sort of mortal immortality. Rachel takes on a similar role in protecting Bruce by referring to the idealized image he was.

The other large father figure in the film was of course Ducard/Ras. He fits into a spiritual mentor and governmental leader as well. He isn't a completely corrupt father figure as Falcone might be considered. Falcone being a Don fits into a completely corrupt role. Ras on the other hand represents a different type of fatherhood. One of liberation from those that impair us from becoming who we are meant to be. Instead of protecting Bruce as a the sacred vessel of his fathers legacy. Ras gives Bruce a path that is both contradictive to the Judeo Christian tradition and in a strange way coincides with it. The great novelist Dostoevsky (who I think seriously has had an impact on Nolan's writing) wrote a book The Brothers Karamazov, which many consider as the first and possibly best existential novel. The book's plot is about the murder of a father who had three sons. Though none of the brothers did it and the father was a corrupt figure, they come to realize that in a way by rejecting his tradition and not respecting where they came from makes them responsible for their parent's deaths.

Ras takes a position opposite of this. In a way he tries to get Bruce to overcome the guilt and fear left by certain events in Bruce’s life, so that Bruce can finally let go of his father and become his own man. The Wayne legacy cannot continue if Bruce continues to live in the past. This is a position held by existentialist Fredriche Nietzsche who was inspired by Dostoevsky. Nietzsche believed that in order to attain godhood, one must destroy the things of the past in his life until he becomes a blank slate on which he can move forward. Progress toward a more perfect union. In order to become the ideal Bruce must destroy his father, then his father, and then his god. The film does follow this progression in which as Wayne manor is burning down(in a very similar to how his mentors dojo was burnt down), Bruce makes a stand against his former mentor.

Though there is a spiritual journey of death and rebirth at the end of the film when Bruce finds his fathers stethoscope, the audience can see that there is love for his father. A common instrument of a doctor it is a symbol of healing, brought on by the memory of his true father. This leads me to believe the film has a message stating that love is important in keeping his father alive. We can always remove the people of the past if we do not love them. Just as we can destroy society if we do not love the union it preserves.

The Good People Do Nothing

The message that the film finally puts out is one of action. Nolan finds the fact that people still like Batman as adults interesting. So he uses it to challenge us. In order to attain our ideals of Justice, peace and a fulfilling life one must overcome their fear. Batman Begins is a story that asks for introspection. As Bruce follows Campbell’s the hero's journey, he becomes a representation of the audience. The words and lesson he learns are meant for us. What we really fear is inside us, in our minds, and if we truly desire a better life then we have face ourselves. The film ends on a note of hope, one that states change is possible if you overcome your fear. In order to keep Hope alive we must act
.
Just a note, my comment before was't negative. When I said "there's just too much going on" I meant that in a good way. Actually, not good, "amazing" would suit it better.

I'm about to give your analysis a read, will comment once I'm done!

edit: A very good read! :thumbsup:
 
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While TDK itself was far removed from the realm of comic book films, I feel that the way Joker and Batman meet and confront each other several times throughout the movie on an almost anecdotal level felt very comic book esque and the film benefited from it. As the Joker himself said at the end, "I think you and I are destined to do this forever." In that way it was parallel to the comics how Batman and Joker are in conflicts with each other constantly. I think if one film had to represent that, TDK did it perfectly within the confines of a "non comic book story."
 
Apologies in advance for the long post.

This interpretation of Batman by Goyer and the Nolans has been refreshing and amazing, especially for literary types and old school Batman fans. My ideas that follow are really what I will need to understand this team's interpretation of the greater Batman story as I feel what we've seen is perhaps not as clear or compelling as they intended. More likely, it is simply not complete:

Bruce Wayne: His character needs a lot of attention, he seemed to be glossed over in TDK, even when the supposed love of his life perishes, and this bothers me more than I would like. His character and Bale need to take it up a notch in the emotion department so we can be emotionally invested in our hero. Bale is clearly capable, but the character was more visceral in BB. At this point, Bruce absolutely has to come to terms with his role as Batman like he seemed to at the end of TDK. At the same time, he absolutely has to realize his limits just as Alfred and Lucious have warned. His role as a true philanthropist publicly may help him with these conflicts and give him a sense of balance.

Villians: Bane needs to be evil, vicious, intelligent, and likeable all at the same time. It will be impossible to fill the Joker's void, but there needs to be something there to sink our teeth into. Selina Kyle can go many ways, as well as Miranda Tate, and simply for shallow reasons I am hoping Cotillard will be his love interest. I am hoping there is heavy emphasis on the 'mad scientist' and John Blake, with them ultimately being Hugo Strange or the Holiday Killer. With the possibility of Black Mask entering the mix, it will be interesting to see which villains they pick and how they cram it all in. Batman's world definitely needs to be over the top with villains, but the audience needs to be able to follow it without taking notes. TDK did this pretty well.

Story: It would make sense to return to a somewhat more standard story line, with flashbacks, etc in Nolan fashion, like BB, to end the saga. TDK was like Act 2 of a story, full of action and story progression with established characters. In turn, Act 3 would likely contain some sort of major plot point in the overall story where something is learned/lost/gained and characters change and stabilize in some way for finality. Ultimately, there are infinite ways to construct the storyline we know of at this point, and I'm confident that if they do get creative it will be well worth it.

Tone: The progression of visuals and tone from BB to TDK is impressive in that it doesn't seem as jarring as it should. BB is dark and somehow reminiscent of a comic book in its production and set design. TDK, however, is much more cosmopolitan/sharp/modern in it's overall feel and the colors match that as does the story, action, etc. From what Nolan has said about Two Face's makeup design, I think this brighter feel in TDK helped make the two villains not quite as horrifying as they could have seemed. Perhaps more wishful thinking, but I could see them returning to a dark tone with a vaguely futuristic feel, progressing the saga into comic eternity (and emulating Blade Runner even closer than BB). It would have to be very subtle, and it's more likely that we will see it look similar to Inception, which is rich, crisp, and contemporary and matches the return to (new) Wayne Manor.

These are all my hopes and predictions, but hopefully my predictions are blown away next summer...
 
^^Good post! :up:

I agree with the tone, I'm hoping for something dark as well.
 
I hope so too, but something that bothers me is we have heard next to nothing about Linus Roache reprising the role of Thomas Wayne in this movie. :csad:

As cool as it would be, I'd rather they didn't, because they would have to get another kid to play Bruce, as the one in BB will now be 7 years older. They already recast once in this franchise--I don't care to see it again.
 

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