The Northern & Southern hemisphere Rugby union thread (6 Nations,Super Rugby,sevens)

[DeadPresident]

Lambie showed great promise as a youngster but unfortunately I don't think he had the physical capabilities to cope - I feel bad for the kid, especially after a whole slew of our local talent (Frans Steyn specifically) just absolutely nose-dived their careers for whatever number of reasons.

 

[Iceman]

Watched the Lions' match with great interest - this is definitely going to be a much closer series than the 2005 tour, during which the Lions got pounded. Beauden Barrett isn't quite Dan Carter, but he's pretty amazing - and there were several ABs who really rose to the occasion.

The Lions came to play, but made a few too many mistakes. However, I never felt that they were completely out of the game. But for a bunch of errors and poor execution the scoreline would have been a lot closer.

Personally, I think subbing Te'O and Vunipola was a mistake, and Sexton looked kind of lost when he came on. I would have left Te'O where he was, taken off Farrell and put Sexton on at fly half.

Neither Sexton nor Halfpenny made as much impact as I'd have hoped. Still, I expect another epic clash in Wellington this Saturday (and of course the Lions will want to punish the Hurricanes tomorrow night).

Even if they go down 3-0, i think the games themselves will be close. Gatland has done well with this Lions team.

I think in any current game between the sides the Lions have a chance of winning but they would have to play near their best and make few errors while the All Blacks would have to be slightly off their game.

 

[Batmannerism]

I think in any current game between the sides the Lions have a chance of winning but they would have to play near their best and make few errors while the All Blacks would have to be slightly off their game.

Can't believe the Lions drew the Hurricanes, they should have beaten them by a reasonable score. This makes me nervous for Saturday's match - I want to see a close game, no matter who wins, not another pounding like in 2005.

 

[Iceman]

Can't believe the Lions drew the Hurricanes, they should have beaten them by a reasonable score. This makes me nervous for Saturday's match - I want to see a close game, no matter who wins, not another pounding like in 2005.

Ah I didn't see this and just read about it. Apparently they were in front and didn't use their replacements despite some of their players tiring. Are the Hurricanes a top team?

 

[Batmannerism]

Ah I didn't see this and just read about it. Apparently they were in front and didn't use their replacements despite some of their players tiring. Are the Hurricanes a top team?

Well, a couple of things happened.

- a yellow card saw the Lions playing 14 on 15, during which the Canes scored 2 tries.

- Gatland failed to utilise his bench effectively.


As for the Hurricanes, they're a super rugby team (our equivalent of Heiniken cup I guess) super rugby is a competition between australian, south african and New Zealand teams (and one japanese and one argentinan team thrown in for fun) it's been running (in various forms) since 1996.

Basically, the All Blacks, Wallabies and Springboks are drawn from their respective super rugby sides.

Now this hurricanes team only had a couple of its current All Blacks, but still had some really big names in it (Julian Savea, Jordie Barrett, Nehe Milner Skudder and Cory Jane on the bench).

The canes won the super rugby competition last year - and to show how the
teams match up, the Blues (who beat the Lions) are the weakest of the super rugby squads this year. The Lions beating the Crusaders was a big deal - as the Crusaders haven't lost any other games this year.

So are the Canes a top team ? Well, not the current top team, but they are a top team, and could probably knock over most international sides (other than any of the six nations, well except maybe Italy, and I guess with how terribly Australia are playing at the moment....) Could the mid-week Lions beat a top Heiniken cup team ?

I've always thought the winner of the Heiniken cup should play the winner of super rugby, now that would be a great match.

Anyway, the Lions will need something special to win on Saturday - and seeing Gatland's selections, I'm not sure they've got it right. I would like to be wrong though and see the tourists win, a 1-1 series would make for a truly epic final clash !

 

[Iceman]

Well, a couple of things happened.

- a yellow card saw the Lions playing 14 on 15, during which the Canes scored 2 tries.

- Gatland failed to utilise his bench effectively.


As for the Hurricanes, they're a super rugby team (our equivalent of Heiniken cup I guess) super rugby is a competition between australian, south african and New Zealand teams (and one japanese and one argentinan team thrown in for fun) it's been running (in various forms) since 1996.

Basically, the All Blacks, Wallabies and Springboks are drawn from their respective super rugby sides.

Now this hurricanes team only had a couple of its current All Blacks, but still had some really big names in it (Julian Savea, Jordie Barrett, Nehe Milner Skudder and Cory Jane on the bench).

The canes won the super rugby competition last year - and to show how the
teams match up, the Blues (who beat the Lions) are the weakest of the super rugby squads this year. The Lions beating the Crusaders was a big deal - as the Crusaders haven't lost any other games this year.

So are the Canes a top team ? Well, not the current top team, but they are a top team, and could probably knock over most international sides (other than any of the six nations, well except maybe Italy, and I guess with how terribly Australia are playing at the moment....) Could the mid-week Lions beat a top Heiniken cup team ?

I've always thought the winner of the Heiniken cup should play the winner of super rugby, now that would be a great match.

Anyway, the Lions will need something special to win on Saturday - and seeing Gatland's selections, I'm not sure they've got it right. I would like to be wrong though and see the tourists win, a 1-1 series would make for a truly epic final clash !

Thanks for that awesome summary!

Are the Super Rugby teams limited to only choosing players from the country that they are in eg a NZ team can have only NZ nationals as players? I've always known of its existence and I've seen a couple of matches a good while ago but I didn't really know how exactly it was organised and what standard of teams we were talking about. All very good to know.

Yep I'll definitely be rooting for the Lions and it will make the series better if it goes to a decider but hopefully the better team on the day will win. All credit to NZ for making it so hard for them so far.

 

[Batmannerism]

Thanks for that awesome summary!

Are the Super Rugby teams limited to only choosing players from the country that they are in eg a NZ team can have only NZ nationals as players? I've always known of its existence and I've seen a couple of matches a good while ago but I didn't really know how exactly it was organised and what standard of teams we were talking about. All very good to know.

Yep I'll definitely be rooting for the Lions and it will make the series better if it goes to a decider but hopefully the better team on the day will win. All credit to NZ for making it so hard for them so far.

Interesting that you ask about selection, I believe each team is allowed a certain number of overseas players, although it's very rare here - kiwi rugby culture is very close knit.

But, James Haskell ( England and Lions loose forward) spent a season with the Highlanders ( one of our other NZ super rugby teams).

Super rugby can be super entertaining. Crusaders vs Highlanders is always good. Right now the NZ teams are very dominant ( none of them have lost to an Aussie side this year) but that's not good for the competition overall. Actually Aussie rugby is in serious disarray - apparently their media are predicting an absolute massacre when they next face the ABs based on the ABs defeating a tough Lions team, while poor Aussie went down to Scotland, at home ! Ouch !

 

[Iceman]

Good to know. So shouldn't the Super teams be slightly weaker than the national AB, Ozzie and SA teams then as they will be able to choose the best players from all the Super teams? Seems very impressive that a bunch of ABs, not all of who make the national team, would beat the Lions.

 

[Batmannerism]

Good to know. So shouldn't the Super teams be slightly weaker than the national AB, Ozzie and SA teams then as they will be able to choose the best players from all the Super teams? Seems very impressive that a bunch of ABs, not all of who make the national team, would beat the Lions.

Yeah, that's fair. Super Rugby teams should be a step down from the All Blacks, but to be honest given the level of rugby here in New Zealand Rugby - and I'm not trying to brag here - a decent NZ Super Rugby side would certainly knock over Italy and possibly Scotland (although not if they play like they did in Australia) and would give the top 5 teams a decent match.

That sounds really arrogant I know, but the level of rugby union here is far above anything going on overseas - I played a little in Canada, and when I moved here 20 years ago started playing on a men's reserve side in a tiny provincial town - and it was like going from kindergarten to university.

Also, in terms of cultural significance while rugby has declined somewhat it is still the dominant sport by far - the development, coaching and club programmes here are all incredibly strong, and also the number of Maori and Polynesian players, whose natural strength and toughness adds a physicality to the Kiwi game that has to be felt to be believed....

Anyway, in the UK football is far and away the number one sport, I don't have to tell you. Imagine if rugby held the same cultural value, because down here it absolutely does. Kiwis place enormous cultural value on success in rugby. Every tiny little town has an RFC, and kids play on schoolyards during lunch-hours, and of course in the off-season touch rugby is very popular.

So what does all that mean ? That even second tier Super Rugby players (guys who can't make the ABs but play Super rugby) are still exceptionally skillfull and could make the starting lineup of other international teams (e.g Riki Flutey, who played for England, and Tony Marsh, who played for France - )
. That's how good these guys are.

Sadly, South African and Australian rugby are in disarray right now - because at their peak the SA and Aussie super rugby teams were amazing.

Anyway, I believe that because Super rugby competition levels are so high ( as All Black, Springbok and Wallaby level players are playing each other on a weekly basis) that gives southern hemisphere teams an advantage - which is why only one northern hemisphere team has ever won a world cup,
and only once - If Eddie Jones keeps his team on track, that will be twice (I hope).

In fact, that brings me to one of my problems with the modern game - the All Blacks - they're too dominant, and I feel like it's killing interest in the sport. There' s talk now of this being the last lions tour down here, and fair enough - so often an ABs game is a foregone conclusion, it kills the excitement.
The best thing to happen in ages was the AB's defeat last year in Chicago - what a wonderful game that was !

While there are plenty of Kiwi fans who aren't happy unless the ABs win every match by at least 40 points, there are also many who want the excitement of close matches and excitement of possible defeat (Steve Hansen's win rate as coach is 91%, which is just insane).

I worry that the ABs will kill interest in the sport itself so that internationally rugby starts to wither. it would be great for the game for England to win in 2019, and even better for France to do so, or Ireland or Scotland or Wales !

Anyway, the short answer is "yes, the Super rugby teams are very good."
Sorry, I got carried away there.

- my other big gripe is the RWC format - I think there should be a 2nd and 3rd tier competiton (like a 7s tournament with the cup, plate and bowl competitions, so that teams like Samoa and Canada and USA and Romania have something to play for after getting knocked back by one of the top teams (e.g. the ABs, England, SA etc.)

 

[Batmannerism]

Anyway, the Lions will need something special to win on Saturday - and seeing Gatland's selections, I'm not sure they've got it right. I would like to be wrong though and see the tourists win, a 1-1 series would make for a truly epic final clash !

I have seldom been as happy to be wrong. What a wonderful game, scrappy, messy and physical - what rugby's all about. This is the best possible result, because it means that the series decider will be an absolute war !

SBW's red card was completely justified, and I was worried when the Lions didn't capitalize on it as much as they could have, due to errors in execution - until much later in the game when they crossed the line at last.

Personally, I believe that try was the turning point. At that point the ABs felt the game start to slip away, and you could almost see their belief waver. To hold the ABs tryless and score 2 tries against them......well that's rare.

This is terrific, a great result for rugby - and a result that has almost certainly ensured future tours. I feel very immensely pleased for all the Lions fans watching, whose faith has been rewarded.

In fact, I watched the game wearing a Lions jersey I picked up in 2005 (believe you me, after the drubbing the Lions took shops were almost giving them away).

It's a historic win and in the short term it builds huge excitement ahead of next week's decider (it also means that if Warren Gatland wants the AB coaching job when Hansen steps aside, he's got it).

I can't wait for next Saturday ! I hope every Lions fan, both here and back in the UK are celebrating this victory - you deserve it !

 

[Fallen Angel]

What a legend Sonny Bill is. Does boxing and play's Ruby Union as a hobby.

 

[Batmannerism]

What a legend Sonny Bill is. Does boxing and play's Ruby Union as a hobby.

LOL, I've come across a few folk today who think he should stick to League !

He will certainly cop some flack for the red card, which gave the Lions just the advantage they needed.

Still, SBW is an entertaining player and rugby needs a few superstars.

Can't wait for the deciding match.

What's going on in other rugby news worldwide (other than the current disastrous state of Australian rugby ?).

 

[Fallen Angel]

He certainly is a superstar in League or Union. What is he to do in Union? He's won the World Cup and the Southern Hemisphere Championship.

Come back to League and help the Kiwis win the Ruby League World Cup again. He was in Union at the 2008 RL World Cup when they won it.

 

[Iceman]

Ah I lost my subscription for this thread and also thought I'd replied after last weekend's game. What a great win and I can't believe we're in with a chance of taking the series. Although in reality NZ will win it and deserve it haha.

Batmannerism, I can't believe you are so gracious for the long term good of the sport that you can cheer for the other team! t:

 

[jmc]

15-15 the final test. Lions series ends in a draw. Not sure what to make of that series overall for the Lions, won 5, lost 3 and tied 2.

 

[Fallen Angel]

Should organise a winner takes it all final test.

 

[jmc]

You could count the Maori match as the unofficial 4th test. So Lions win! haha!

 

[Iceman]

For some reason didn't even consider the possibility of a draw. Credit to both teams for some great rugby along the way. Hope that is enough from the Lions to ensure the future of these Tests.

 

[Batmannerism]

Ah I lost my subscription for this thread and also thought I'd replied after last weekend's game. What a great win and I can't believe we're in with a chance of taking the series. Although in reality NZ will win it and deserve it haha.

Batmannerism, I can't believe you are so gracious for the long term good of the sport that you can cheer for the other team! t:

As a fan of rugby I like to see a good contest, where the result is far from certain- and when one team becomes too dominant it diminishes the excitement of international test matches. Many New Zealanders are only happy when the ABs win every match by a big margin - but that's a very narrow view and does nothing for the sport.

Having said that, I'm really pleased with the result. I think it's a great result for the Lions, but also a great result for rugby - in many ways the Lions should consider this a win, because to beat the All Blacks at Eden Park is a very rare event indeed (hasn't happened since 1994). I was also very pleased when Ireland toppled the ABs in Chicago last year.

These result build a lot of excitement and drama around England's upcoming clash with the ABs, and the world cup (which is just over 2 years away).

 

[Iceman]

As a fan of rugby I like to see a good contest, where the result is far from certain- and when one team becomes too dominant it diminishes the excitement of international test matches. Many New Zealanders are only happy when the ABs win every match by a big margin - but that's a very narrow view and does nothing for the sport.

Having said that, I'm really pleased with the result. I think it's a great result for the Lions, but also a great result for rugby - in many ways the Lions should consider this a win, because to beat the All Blacks at Eden Park is a very rare event indeed (hasn't happened since 1994). I was also very pleased when Ireland toppled the ABs in Chicago last year.

These result build a lot of excitement and drama around England's upcoming clash with the ABs, and the world cup (which is just over 2 years away).

Good stuff man. I hope it works out the way you want it in the best interests of rugby, and if England don't win the World Cup, I hope NZ do and that these kinds of games contribute to making that victory have more worldwide importance and feel sweeter.

 

[Batmannerism]

Good stuff man. I hope it works out the way you want it in the best interests of rugby, and if England don't win the World Cup, I hope NZ do and that these kinds of games contribute to making that victory have more worldwide importance and feel sweeter.

Personally, I hope the ABs don't win the RWC 2019. There was an enormous amount of interest and excitement around RWC 2011, I worked at all the Wellington games, and the atmosphere was massive.

The ABs hadn't won a cup since 1987, so there was huge drama around their games - as there was a massive weight of public expectation riding on them(especially after their ignominius exit at RWC 2007).

Not winning the RWC keeps the ABs hungry and brings out the best in them.

However, for rugby to flourish, that ultimate prize has to be shared
around - England's win in 2003 was such a triumph for the game (and also probably the most dramatic final ever).

I would like to see England, Ireland, Wales or even France walk away with the cup in 2019 - just to keep Northern hemisphere interest in the game alive.

 

[Iceman]

Ha, you're really in it for the long term!

 

[Iceman]

Yeah, that's fair. Super Rugby teams should be a step down from the All Blacks, but to be honest given the level of rugby here in New Zealand Rugby - and I'm not trying to brag here - a decent NZ Super Rugby side would certainly knock over Italy and possibly Scotland (although not if they play like they did in Australia) and would give the top 5 teams a decent match.

That sounds really arrogant I know, but the level of rugby union here is far above anything going on overseas - I played a little in Canada, and when I moved here 20 years ago started playing on a men's reserve side in a tiny provincial town - and it was like going from kindergarten to university.

Also, in terms of cultural significance while rugby has declined somewhat it is still the dominant sport by far - the development, coaching and club programmes here are all incredibly strong, and also the number of Maori and Polynesian players, whose natural strength and toughness adds a physicality to the Kiwi game that has to be felt to be believed....

Anyway, in the UK football is far and away the number one sport, I don't have to tell you. Imagine if rugby held the same cultural value, because down here it absolutely does. Kiwis place enormous cultural value on success in rugby. Every tiny little town has an RFC, and kids play on schoolyards during lunch-hours, and of course in the off-season touch rugby is very popular.

So what does all that mean ? That even second tier Super Rugby players (guys who can't make the ABs but play Super rugby) are still exceptionally skillfull and could make the starting lineup of other international teams (e.g Riki Flutey, who played for England, and Tony Marsh, who played for France - )
. That's how good these guys are.

Sadly, South African and Australian rugby are in disarray right now - because at their peak the SA and Aussie super rugby teams were amazing.

Anyway, I believe that because Super rugby competition levels are so high ( as All Black, Springbok and Wallaby level players are playing each other on a weekly basis) that gives southern hemisphere teams an advantage - which is why only one northern hemisphere team has ever won a world cup,
and only once - If Eddie Jones keeps his team on track, that will be twice (I hope).

In fact, that brings me to one of my problems with the modern game - the All Blacks - they're too dominant, and I feel like it's killing interest in the sport. There' s talk now of this being the last lions tour down here, and fair enough - so often an ABs game is a foregone conclusion, it kills the excitement.
The best thing to happen in ages was the AB's defeat last year in Chicago - what a wonderful game that was !

While there are plenty of Kiwi fans who aren't happy unless the ABs win every match by at least 40 points, there are also many who want the excitement of close matches and excitement of possible defeat (Steve Hansen's win rate as coach is 91%, which is just insane).

I worry that the ABs will kill interest in the sport itself so that internationally rugby starts to wither. it would be great for the game for England to win in 2019, and even better for France to do so, or Ireland or Scotland or Wales !

Anyway, the short answer is "yes, the Super rugby teams are very good."
Sorry, I got carried away there.

- my other big gripe is the RWC format - I think there should be a 2nd and 3rd tier competiton (like a 7s tournament with the cup, plate and bowl competitions, so that teams like Samoa and Canada and USA and Romania have something to play for after getting knocked back by one of the top teams (e.g. the ABs, England, SA etc.)

I don't think the ABs dominating kills interest in the sport over here as we have our own tournaments like the 6 nations that are reasonably competitive and it's not all about winning the whole World Cup. Smaller teams enjoy being able to compete and get to a stage that is a good result for them. For eg Scotland might be happy with a quarter final, Wales with a semi etc. Also it's good for everyone that the top team is an exciting one and one that most of us would hope to emulate rather than say a team that were effective but boring to watch. NZ dominating is like when a flair football team like Brazil used to dominate football, rather than a super-effective machine like Germany.

 

[jmc]

All Blacks will eventually fall, you can really only stay on top for so long.

 

[Batmannerism]

All Blacks will eventually fall, you can really only stay on top for so long.

Until other nations start putting as much cultural value on rugby ( e.g. whereas in Brazil little kids play football in the streets, here they throw around rugby balls) the All Blacks will always be one of the top teams (not always number 1, but close to the top). In New Zealand rugby is almost a religion.

Here, almost every little village has its own rugby club - the game is ubiquitous and goes almost year round - with super rugby starting in February and ABs end of year tours going as late as November/December. If you are a rugby addict New Zealand is the place to live - there's a tv show "grassroots rugby" on Sunday afternoons, which features local matches and even Sky TV will carry college (high school ) level games from prominent schools.

Add to that the incredible physicality of Maori and Polynesian players and the strong coaching and development programs that clubs and provincial unions and New Zealand is practically a factory for producing great rugby players - in the same way that Canada produces great ice hockey players ( because the game has such cultural importance there, and every little town has ice rinks).

What does all that mean ? Well, like I said, the ABs won't always be number one, but until other countries start caring as much about rugby as we do, we'll always be near the top.

Having said all that, I still really want a northern hemisphere team to win RWC 2019 - it would be terrific for the game for England, Ireland, Wales or France to claim the cup ( poor France, so often runner-up !).