The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 28

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]485599[/split]

 

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]484087[/split]

 

[DeadPresident]

*sighs*.... That was irritating. This back four is going to be utter hell to watch, roll on January and some stop gap players who will be able to play a whole match without ****ing up...

I could sit here and rant about the first LC goal, or their first penalty (the Blackett one was a clear cut case of him ****ing it up and the red was the only outcome)... But there's no point really... Just hope that someone finds out why Clattenburg gets so penalty happy against us...

Yeah, January needs to come quickly. The need for a decisive CB is getting more and more noticeable. As soon as somebody with a bit more authority comes in to get the defense on the same page the better. I'm a little surprised the defense is looking so scatterbrained under LvG, it's the same as it was under Moyes and the last season of SAF's tenure. The entire back 4 goes into a frenzy as soon as the ball gets near the box everybody starts running after the ball and players can move into space.

If it's this similar under 3 different managers I'm going to assume a lot of it has to do with the players in question. Unfortunately regarding Rafael, Jones, Smalling and Evans there isn't a calm and collected one between them. Just going to have to bide time until they can bring a more experienced and calm CB in.

 

[B]

Yeah, January needs to come quickly. The need for a decisive CB is getting more and more noticeable. As soon as somebody with a bit more authority comes in to get the defense on the same page the better. I'm a little surprised the defense is looking so scatterbrained under LvG, it's the same as it was under Moyes and the last season of SAF's tenure. The entire back 4 goes into a frenzy as soon as the ball gets near the box everybody starts running after the ball and players can move into space.

If it's this similar under 3 different managers I'm going to assume a lot of it has to do with the players in question. Unfortunately regarding Rafael, Jones, Smalling and Evans there isn't a calm and collected one between them. Just going to have to bide time until they can bring a more experienced and calm CB in.

I feel our biggest problem currently isn't that we don't have good enough CB's at the club, it's the fact, which some did highlight in the summer, that Jones, Evans & Smalling are all prone to injury.

Probably our best defender in the opening month, Jones is out with a hamstring injury he picked up on England duty, another reason to abolish internationals during the club season. Then there's Evans & Smalling both of which have not reached full fitness as they keep picking up niggling injuries & as a result their form is suffering.

Rojo needs to be put at CB alongside Smalling, presuming he's fit, against West Brom & we need to get Shaw some minutes after coming back from injury.

If we can get Rojo, Jones, Evans & Smalling fit and playing together regularly, I'm confident that while we are inexperienced to an extent, we should have enough to achieve Champions League spots given our attacking play is finally looking threatening again with the introduction of the diamond, Di Maria & Falcao.

 

[B]

Though in saying that, we are in danger of repeating the same mistakes Liverpool made last year. Scoring goals is all well & fine, but if you can't defend, you'll never win or achieve anything worth mentioning.

 

[DeadPresident]

I feel our biggest problem currently isn't that we don't have good enough CB's at the club, it's the fact, which some did highlight in the summer, that Jones, Evans & Smalling are all prone to injury.

Probably our best defender in the opening month, Jones is out with a hamstring injury he picked up on England duty, another reason to abolish internationals during the club season. Then there's Evans & Smalling both of which have not reached full fitness as they keep picking up niggling injuries & as a result their form is suffering.

Rojo needs to be put at CB alongside Smalling, presuming he's fit, against West Brom & we need to get Shaw some minutes after coming back from injury.

If we can get Rojo, Jones, Evans & Smalling fit and playing together regularly, I'm confident that while we are inexperienced to an extent, we should have enough to achieve Champions League spots given our attacking play is finally looking threatening again with the introduction of the diamond, Di Maria & Falcao.

I think the issue is personnel as well as coaching. I think the individual players (particularly Jones and Rafael in terms of rashness and not thinking) have serious faults when it comes to defending properly. The second issue is the cohesion/coordination between the defenders which is an issue of proper training but also a leader. The leader issue is not really addressable right now.

What puzzles me is that the defenders are still so inconsistent and absent-minded in their decision making. That has to be primarily down to coaching for me, conditioning players to make certain context-related decisions (Rafael and Jones again, constant sliding challenges, no respect for tackles in the box) that aren't being addressed. That probably stems from the leader thing though, there's nobody to dictate the urgency of decisions or a calm defender that will take charge in last-ditch decisions to bail the defense out. Vidic had some bad red cards in his time but for the most part he could be relied on to bail the team out when the alternative was conceding a goal. I'm not really sure any of our current crop of players has (or will have) that kind of dependability in them.

Though in saying that, we are in danger of repeating the same mistakes Liverpool made last year. Scoring goals is all well & fine, but if you can't defend, you'll never win or achieve anything worth mentioning.

United's squad balance in terms of quality is way off. I agree, the defensive aspects need to be addressed ASAP. I think one of Blind's faults may also have been revealed in the Leicester game, predictably he's not that great at winning possession when the opposition is on the attack. He's great at intercepting balls and getting tight to players when they're passing short, but when there are wide gaps and players running at pace he doesn't seem composed.

Speed in defense is a problem United have had for a long time too, and it's due to a slow midfield as well as defense. I'm sure LvG is having a look at it, but the problem is United's achilles at the moment is a style of play 75% of the PL teams possess. Any team willing to physically get involved and press possession is in with a chance against United. Until they get players with the mobility and build of guys like Toure/Henderson/Dembele/ they're going to keep coming off second best on the physical side. They need players with the speed and strength to compete with the typically English sides.

 

[Hunter Rider]

I feel our biggest problem currently isn't that we don't have good enough CB's at the club, it's the fact, which some did highlight in the summer, that Jones, Evans & Smalling are all prone to injury.

Probably our best defender in the opening month, Jones is out with a hamstring injury he picked up on England duty, another reason to abolish internationals during the club season. Then there's Evans & Smalling both of which have not reached full fitness as they keep picking up niggling injuries & as a result their form is suffering.

Rojo needs to be put at CB alongside Smalling, presuming he's fit, against West Brom & we need to get Shaw some minutes after coming back from injury.

If we can get Rojo, Jones, Evans & Smalling fit and playing together regularly, I'm confident that while we are inexperienced to an extent, we should have enough to achieve Champions League spots given our attacking play is finally looking threatening again with the introduction of the diamond, Di Maria & Falcao.

I'm afraid I don't share your confidence, Evans is soft, Jones is reckless and Smalling is timid, if Jones can sort his head out I think he can progress, but the other 2 are on borrowed time IMO. The other aspect is all 3 are so injury prone, Jones mostly down to his own rashness, the other two just seem like they'd tear a groin just taking a piss.

One of these 3 in January would help boost us defensively IMO.

 

[Fallen Angel]

Marquinos would cost a fair bit seeing as PSG won't have to sell. Isn't he and Thiago Silva starters for PSG too?

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I still have faith that Jones will improve, but the other 2 worry me.

 

[DeadPresident]

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but Stefan de Vrij went to Lazio for under €10m...I'm at a slight loss as to why United didn't make something of that. Or Vlaar for that matter. Ezequiel Garay went to Russia for just over €15m, none of them are permanent solutions but they're much better than the available options. Blackett or Smalling could have been loaned out and an extra player brought in.

Who's the first kid btw? I know Marquinhos from PSG (they've been telling Barca off for the last 2 years apparently and want upwards of €40m) and Musacchio from Villareal.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Marquinos would cost a fair bit seeing as PSG won't have to sell. Isn't he and Thiago Silva starters for PSG too?

At the moment he is starting with Luiz who they dropped £50M on as Thiago Silva is out. He'd certainly cost a pretty penny but has the agility, timing and explosive pace that would help our laboured back 4 of china dolls.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but Stefan de Vrij went to Lazio for under €10m...I'm at a slight loss as to why United didn't make something of that. Or Vlaar for that matter. Ezequiel Garay went to Russia for just over €15m, none of them are permanent solutions but they're much better than the available options. Blackett or Smalling could have been loaned out and an extra player brought in.

Who's the first kid btw? I know Marquinhos from PSG (they've been telling Barca off for the last 2 years apparently and want upwards of €40m) and Musacchio from Villareal.

I believe the reason we passed on de Vrij was his attitude issues, he was stripped of his captaincy last year for PSV. Garay and Vlaar being passed over when it was obvious that Hummels was not on makes no sense to me though. In truth Vlaar might be an option in January as I don't think he has signed a new deal so he'll only have 6 months left on his contract.

The first one is Fabian Schar of Basel.

Speed in defense is a problem United have had for a long time too, and it's due to a slow midfield as well as defense. I'm sure LvG is having a look at it, but the problem is United's achilles at the moment is a style of play 75% of the PL teams possess. Any team willing to physically get involved and press possession is in with a chance against United. Until they get players with the mobility and build of guys like Toure/Henderson/Dembele/ they're going to keep coming off second best on the physical side. They need players with the speed and strength to compete with the typically English sides.

This, all day this! We talked about it a week or two ago and Neville and Souness talked about it on Sky yesterday, you have to earn the right to play in the PL and we simply lack the ball winners and physical competitors in midfield or defense right now.

 

[Iceman]

I still have faith that Jones will improve, but the other 2 worry me.

Jones has the most promise of the 3 for sure. Utd have persevered with many young players over many years since the golden generation but many of them never really had the promise to ever be Utd quality players and when they were finally moved on to lesser clubs they pretty much disappeared. I think Jones could make the grade one day but while they are in such a big transitionary phase and spending this kind of money I think they need to see the project through right now and overpay for the CBs they need to get back to the top and provide the foundation their now great looking attacking lineup needs to get value out of all those big purchases. Jones can then develop in his own time without the insane pressure that will be on whoever is responsible for organising Utd's defence right now.

 

[Fallen Angel]

Did Ferguson really come out and say Jones would be the best defender in Man Utd's history?

 

[Hunter Rider]

Did Ferguson really come out and say Jones would be the best defender in Man Utd's history?

No, worse - http://www1.skysports.com/football/...erguson-praises-manchester-uniteds-phil-jones

"You saw Jones tonight," Ferguson told Sky Sports. "Arguably, the way he is looking, he could be our best ever player."

 

[DeadPresident]

I believe the reason we passed on de Vrij was his attitude issues, he was stripped of his captaincy last year for PSV. Garay and Vlaar being passed over when it was obvious that Hummels was not on makes no sense to me though. In truth Vlaar might be an option in January as I don't think he has signed a new deal so he'll only have 6 months left on his contract.

The first one is Fabian Schar of Basel.

Ah ok, fair enough. Being capable is one thing but if he's not going to be a positive influence for a long period of time it's not worth the headache.

Hopefully Vlaar as an option is at least mulled over, I have no doubt United are going to have more incidents like the Leicester game that's going to force United's hand into bringing in more solid defensive options. There's no way around it, Smalling, Evans and Jones don't show the required ability regularly enough to be considered essential for United.

Garay would've been great in light of getting Rojo, they're both Argentinean and would have at least trained and probably played together before, and both are physically capable.

This, all day this! We talked about it a week or two ago and Neville and Souness talked about it on Sky yesterday, you have to earn the right to play in the PL and we simply lack the ball winners and physical competitors in midfield or defense right now.

Yeah, we've mentioned it a couple of times. Chelsea's defense isn't perfect, but they have the most players with the physical qualities that make their jobs easier in the PL. I mean Ivanovic is a 6'1'' 85kg RB for **** sakes. There's no two ways about it, defense is the one area where having two 6'3'' CBs that are built like missile silos is always a positive that can make up for a certain lack of talent.

City went out and got Mangala (which I'm envious as **** of) because firstly he ticks the physical boxes, and as a bonus he's got the style and composure that makes him eligible to be at an elite club. Any club that keeps pissing about with substandard players that can't even fulfill the physical prerequisites let alone the mental ones isn't going to go too far.

Robust, quick and composed. That's what United need in midfield and defense, end of. The only time they'll pick up the "easy" points against supposed inferior opposition is when they have a defense and midfield that isn't ****ting themselves as soon as a mildly physical and persistent player like that chav Vardy comes along.

The other benefit of having players like Toure and Matic hanging about is the mere perception that they're willing to throw their weight around. I think United's midfield got a healthy amount of respect when Roy Keane was there not because he'd hacked somebody down in that particular game but because he had a reputation of losing his **** if you unfairly challenged him or anyone else in a United shirt. It'll do United's team a world of good if they got a player in that opposition players would think twice about tussling with for fear of having him go through them like a freight train later in the match. It's one of the reasons I'm disappointed they weren't able to get Nigel de Jong. He's too old and not that great, but he's a menace in midfield and has a reputation. I guarantee the likes of Vardy or Cattermole wouldn't be strutting around the middle of the park with as much conviction if they suspected de Jong was somewhere near them plotting how best to dislocate their femurs without the ref noticing.

Did Ferguson really come out and say Jones would be the best defender in Man Utd's history?

I think he said he has the potential to become the club's greatest defender when they first signed him from Blackburn, I may be mistaken though.

Edit: Just saw Hunter's link, I stand corrected.

 

[Zeus]

No, worse - http://www1.skysports.com/football/...erguson-praises-manchester-uniteds-phil-jones

"You saw Jones tonight," Ferguson told Sky Sports. "Arguably, the way he is looking, he could be our best ever player."

Either Alex was very lucky as a manager or he sold his soul to the devil for a career that saw him successful.

He has made some terrible comments and recommendations since he left.

 

[Iceman]

Fergie has become ultra-hyperbolic. He needs to join the Spidey & Bat sections of the Hype right now!

 

[DeadPresident]

Reports from about an hour ago claim Kevin Strootman has left his previous agent and joined up with the same guy who represents van Persie.

 

[Iceman]

Utd have bought a whole new midfield already! Mata, Di Maria, Herrera and Blind and now some of their potential transfers will force their other recent transfers out of the team t: With Rojo, Shaw and Falcao, they'll soon be close to a brand new team apart from their now allegedly irreplaceable captain.

 

[DeadPresident]

Haha, very true. It sounds cruel, but honestly the only players that looked good before the spate of transfers this off-season were De Gea, Rooney and Mata. The rest of the squad would struggle to get into most top 6 sides. Unfortunately for United, that just won't cut it. Certainly nobody in the back line would even make it into Everton's starting lineup. If United are aiming for 4th and up they'll have to have the squad to match that ambition.

The aggregate talent of their squad just isn't close to what Chelsea, City, Bayern, Real Madrid or Barcelona have. I'm hoping the introduction of the former Dutch U/21 coach to United's academy means they'll hopefully be recruiting and developing better prospects from now on. The most notable academy graduates of late are Cleverley, Welbeck, Pogba and Januzaj. The best out of that lot United decided to ship off for next to nothing and only Januzaj is left at the club. That's another serious flaw Ferguson/United hadn't addressed in quite some time - the lack of serious talent coming from their academy.

 

[Iceman]

I can't believe they let Pogba go. Exactly what they need in the centre.

 

[B]

I think the issue is personnel as well as coaching. I think the individual players (particularly Jones and Rafael in terms of rashness and not thinking) have serious faults when it comes to defending properly. The second issue is the cohesion/coordination between the defenders which is an issue of proper training but also a leader. The leader issue is not really addressable right now.

What puzzles me is that the defenders are still so inconsistent and absent-minded in their decision making. That has to be primarily down to coaching for me, conditioning players to make certain context-related decisions (Rafael and Jones again, constant sliding challenges, no respect for tackles in the box) that aren't being addressed. That probably stems from the leader thing though, there's nobody to dictate the urgency of decisions or a calm defender that will take charge in last-ditch decisions to bail the defense out. Vidic had some bad red cards in his time but for the most part he could be relied on to bail the team out when the alternative was conceding a goal. I'm not really sure any of our current crop of players has (or will have) that kind of dependability in them.

What we are lacking is a real leader to emerge from what we have, Jones is probably the closest thing we have to a leader. Seems very vocal & leads like example, he's the closest thing to a Vidic replacement we have as he's just as reckless in the tackle as Vidic was.

It's both a pro & con because he has the potential to either get himself injured by throwing himself somewhere, get sent off or give a way a foul OR he has the potential to make a last ditch tackle. At 22, I have every faith as it stands he'll potentially be one of our future mainstays at CB by the time he's hitting his peak years 26-32 providing he can steer free of injury... and that we can keep him at club.

Rafael at RB is a position I'd like to see strengthened. Smalling nor Jones are RB's, therefore they aren't valid cover or alternate choices to Rafael barring an injury crisis. Valencia is also not a RB.

United's squad balance in terms of quality is way off. I agree, the defensive aspects need to be addressed ASAP. I think one of Blind's faults may also have been revealed in the Leicester game, predictably he's not that great at winning possession when the opposition is on the attack. He's great at intercepting balls and getting tight to players when they're passing short, but when there are wide gaps and players running at pace he doesn't seem composed.

Our squad in general is very imbalanced I feel right across the board. We've too many players who's best position is so competitive they have to play elsewhere to get in the side.

Let's be honest though, we aren't expecting much from Blind. For his fee you aren't expecting a World Class player, you are expecting someone who can do a job. I thought Blind did alright, all things considered, he needs to be a bit stronger in the tackle, too many people seemed to be bouncing off him as he was trying to win back the ball. He's solid in possession & is tactically aware of what's around him. His performance in the Leicester game came as a result of the team crumbling around him, individually the team played well, but as a team/unit they didn't.. if that makes sense.

Speed in defense is a problem United have had for a long time too, and it's due to a slow midfield as well as defense. I'm sure LvG is having a look at it, but the problem is United's achilles at the moment is a style of play 75% of the PL teams possess. Any team willing to physically get involved and press possession is in with a chance against United. Until they get players with the mobility and build of guys like Toure/Henderson/Dembele/ they're going to keep coming off second best on the physical side. They need players with the speed and strength to compete with the typically English sides.

Speed for me from my CB's isn't an absolute must, the main thing I'd personally be looking at is defensive awareness, leadership & good possession play. Smalling though is surprisingly quick, we played a team last season.. I honestly can't remember who though rather annoyingly, and whomever their striker was had blistering pace & Smalling managed to keep pace with him on a couple of occasions to either win the ball back or give his teammates time to get back. What let's Smalling down is he isn't vocal or strong enough for my tastes.

 

[Iceman]

I like speed in CBs but Terry didn't have it and he was one of the world's best for a long time.

 

[B]

I'm afraid I don't share your confidence, Evans is soft, Jones is reckless and Smalling is timid, if Jones can sort his head out I think he can progress, but the other 2 are on borrowed time IMO. The other aspect is all 3 are so injury prone, Jones mostly down to his own rashness, the other two just seem like they'd tear a groin just taking a piss.

Evans is pretty solid, when Vidic was out long term he partnered Rio in the middle & looked very solid. It's all about chemistry I feel, you can have 2 average CB's, but if they both have an understanding & compliment each others play styles they can form a solid partnership.

We need to see how Rojo fairs at CB alongside someone like Jones.

Marquinos would cost a fair bit seeing as PSG won't have to sell. Isn't he and Thiago Silva starters for PSG too?

Luiz & Marquinhos are their current starters, however only because Thiago Silva is injured, either one of them will be dropped or Marquinhos will be moved to RB were he is equally as good.

PSG don't have to sell any of their players, however selling will depend on their FFP situation. In the summer after having signed Luiz for £50m, they reportedly couldn't afford the fee to take Di Maria on loan for the season without breaching their FFP.. so you're probably talking like £10m fee + £10m or so wages.

 

[B]

I like speed in CBs but Terry didn't have it and he was one of the world's best for a long time.

Nor had many of the best CB's, even in their peaks. Vidic was never quick, Nesta, Stam, Puyol etc. Rio used to be able to move quick enough, he was never what you'd call pacey, but wasn't slow either.