The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 35

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[DeadPresident]

When he was there he got into arguments with other clubs managers and Presidents ands the media hated him. He disrespected everyone and made a handcuff gesture during a game before. He courted plenty of controversy there (there is so much stuff that I could dig up if I was arsed it is not even funny). I can only assume you did not follow him much in Italy because there was not much difference from what he was like there and in Spain.

Even during his first Chelsea stint he got into trouble with the referee in the Barca CL game. This is how he reacts when things don't go his way and the media question him. Perhaps there was less controversy in his first Chelsea stint because he won comfortably in his first two seasons and the media in England have a weird infatuation with him and give him more leeway but the media in Italy and Spain did not treat him in such a way. In his last season in England he regularly complained about United being favoured by referees and called Ronaldo "uneducated". He hasn't really changed much over the years. What changes is how successful his teams are and how the media are with him. As soon as his teams begin to struggle a bit and he comes under a bit if criticism and pressure then the real Jose emerges.

He is the best manager in the world IMO and I am a fan of his, but he has always been this way.

Fair points, I mainly followed him in the CL in his time at Inter. His time in England and Spain I watched him a lot more closely. At Madrid I feel like he completely lost the plot, poking other managers in the eye? I mean I get shifting attention off your team and onto you and whatever other cute psychological tricks he has, but there's a point where things like that start becoming laughably stupid. I mentioned it already, but it would be insane if anyone else did it. The footballing community's absolution of the worst of Mourinho is a little puzzling. I accept the controversial stuff, but putting his hands on other managers and insinuating to the media that UEFA or the FA are after his teams...again, if other managers did it people would lambast them.

You are right though, when his teams begin to struggle he turns into a petulant child. I agree he's the best manager in the world at the moment, but the only achievements of his that impress me are when he won the CL with Porto and with Inter. Everything else he's done should be expected when you take over the teams he did. If people look carefully, each time he went to a new club they were the dominant force in their respective league, at least in terms of their squad. And funnily enough, the time when he is given literally everything to dominate in Europe completely, at Madrid, he has an uneventful spell. I mean Ronaldo, Benzema, Ozil and Kaka all in the same team can't get him a CL title?

I dunno, he's amusing and all but I don't see the fascination. Fantastic man manager and knows his tactics well, but he's lost his appeal for me. He's a grown man that behaves like a teenager with a personality disorder. When a manager's press conferences are more eventful than the football his team plays I kind of tune out. No aspersions on his record though, the guy is one of the greats.

 

[BatmanBeyond]

Fair points, I mainly followed him in the CL in his time at Inter. His time in England and Spain I watched him a lot more closely. At Madrid I feel like he completely lost the plot, poking other managers in the eye? I mean I get shifting attention off your team and onto you and whatever other cute psychological tricks he has, but there's a point where things like that start becoming laughably stupid. I mentioned it already, but it would be insane if anyone else did it. The footballing community's absolution of the worst of Mourinho is a little puzzling. I accept the controversial stuff, but putting his hands on other managers and insinuating to the media that UEFA or the FA are after his teams...again, if other managers did it people would lambast them.

Bolded line was definitely crossing the line, even by Jose standards. He's only human, after all, although he would never admit it.

But again, what I think I enjoy about Mourinho, the manager, most of all, is the fact that he's not afraid to win by playing a style which is not necessarily pleasing on the eye. I mean, sure, when it gets to some of the dirty levels it got during a lot of the Madrid-Barca derbies while he was manager over there, it's too much. But that Barca-Inter 2nd leg tie at the Camp Nou in the latter's CL winning season is the perfect example of what I'm referring to, I think. It stands in stark contrast to the messianic, over the top, appreciation that's been directed towards Barca's 'pure' way of playing football over the last decade.

I enjoy the contrast between him and Pep as well - I rate the latter very highly too, but sometimes I just think he thinkers too much, and gets lost in that aforementioned 'pure' concept of playing football, while Jose is not afraid to resort to the very basics in order to win a match and, indeed, titles. Football is about the end result at the end of the day and I think Mourinho perfectly incapsulates that philosophy, despite his many theatrics.

 

[DeadPresident]

Bolded line was definitely crossing the line, even by Jose standards. He's only human, after all, although he would never admit it.

But again, what I think I enjoy about Mourinho, the manager, most of all, is the fact that he's not afraid to win by playing a style which is not necessarily pleasing on the eye. I mean, sure, when it gets to some of the dirty levels it got during a lot of the Madrid-Barca derbies while he was manager over there, it's too much. But that Barca-Inter 2nd leg tie at the Camp Nou in the latter's CL winning season is the perfect example of what I'm referring to, I think. It stands in stark contrast to the messianic, over the top, appreciation that's been directed towards Barca's 'pure' way of playing football over the last decade.

I enjoy the contrast between him and Pep as well - I rate the latter very highly too, but sometimes I just think he thinkers too much, and gets lost in that aforementioned 'pure' concept of playing football, while Jose is not afraid to resort to the very basics in order to win a match and, indeed, titles. Football is about the end result at the end of the day and I think Mourinho perfectly incapsulates that philosophy, despite his many theatrics.

At the end of the day, don't we watch to be entertained though? I can appreciate the notion of Mourinho's win percentage and all that, but as viewers the whole point is we're spending that 90-120 minutes to enjoy it, right? I like a hero vs villain narrative as much as the next guy, but I feel like the media praise Jose gets is ridiculous. With his second spell at Chelsea he's nothing more than Sam Allardyce with a cheque book. All the hate Barca gets makes me laugh, because objectively they have the best model to follow and they actually tend to play relatively attractive football - bar the last season of Pep's where his obsession with possession made him as bad as Mourinho's ultra conservative style. I find it strange that Mourinho gets praised for a style that makes people call managers like Pardew or Allardyce sticks in the mud. Mourinho take's off two attacking midfielder's for a CDM and a CB to protect a 1 goal lead and it's "inspired" tactics. It looks like fear to me. I appreciate people with different perspectives though, I suppose it would get a little tedious if every manager had Pellegrini's composure and never spoke their minds completely. You are right though, Mourinho's utilitarian style has its merits. I just pray he never sits in the Old Trafford hot seat. People complained when Moyes came with his dreary approach. Trophies or not, I wonder how long United fans would be willing to watch Mourinho turn "Attack, Attack, Attack" into "Score, Defend, Defend, Defend".

In terms of his ability as a manager there are few like him, he can galvanize a team and gets results like clockwork, for sure. But in terms of why I watch the game, and I'm assuming some other people, Mourinho offers little these days. He's an owner's manager, or a shareholder's manager, or a player's manager. But he isn't a fan's manager IMO. I'll watch Arsenal or Liverpool play a hundred times over before I'll watch Chelsea. In a way Mourinho and Wenger are total opposites in regard to the game, Mourinho became a slave to results, while Wenger became a slave to attractive football. Both of them sacrifice one for the other.

He is an award winning antagonist, I'll admit that, but I've grown tired of his antics. It was novel a decade ago, now it feels dated...But I'll still tune in to all Chelsea's biggest games to watch him go at it with Wenger or Guardiola

 

[BatmanBeyond]

At the end of the day, don't we watch to be entertained though? I can appreciate the notion of Mourinho's win percentage and all that, but as viewers the whole point is we're spending that 90-120 minutes to enjoy it, right? I like a hero vs villain narrative as much as the next guy, but I feel like the media praise Jose gets is ridiculous. With his second spell at Chelsea he's nothing more than Sam Allardyce with a cheque book. All the hate Barca gets makes me laugh, because objectively they have the best model to follow and they actually tend to play relatively attractive football - bar the last season of Pep's where his obsession with possession made him as bad as Mourinho's ultra conservative style. I find it strange that Mourinho gets praised for a style that makes people call managers like Pardew or Allardyce sticks in the mud. Mourinho take's off two attacking midfielder's for a CDM and a CB to protect a 1 goal lead and it's "inspired" tactics. It looks like fear to me. I appreciate people with different perspectives though, I suppose it would get a little tedious if every manager had Pellegrini's composure and never spoke their minds completely. You are right though, Mourinho's utilitarian style has its merits. I just pray he never sits in the Old Trafford hot seat. People complained when Moyes came with his dreary approach. Trophies or not, I wonder how long United fans would be willing to watch Mourinho turn "Attack, Attack, Attack" into "Score, Defend, Defend, Defend".

In terms of his ability as a manager there are few like him, he can galvanize a team and gets results like clockwork, for sure. But in terms of why I watch the game, and I'm assuming some other people, Mourinho offers little these days. He's an owner's manager, or a shareholder's manager, or a player's manager. But he isn't a fan's manager IMO. I'll watch Arsenal or Liverpool play a hundred times over before I'll watch Chelsea. In a way Mourinho and Wenger are total opposites in regard to the game, Mourinho became a slave to results, while Wenger became a slave to attractive football. Both of them sacrifice one for the other.

He is an award winning antagonist, I'll admit that, but I've grown tired of his antics. It was novel a decade ago, now it feels dated...But I'll still tune in to all Chelsea's biggest games to watch him go at it with Wenger or Guardiola

Nah, I can definitely understand why you find him tiring. I basically viewed him in the same light the first time he came to England.

I don't know, I personally find his opting for the 'results before style' philosophy to be a breath of fresh air, as well as counter-intuitively entertaining, in an age where everyone seems to be preaching a 'pure' brand of attractive football. That being said, I don't want to sound like I'm taking away from the success of the aforementioned Barca side - probably one of the best sides in club football and it kind of feels like a privilege to have seen them in action at their peak. It's the over-the-top praise and genuine ass-kissing of their very particular brand of football which grinds my gears. Nasty, dirty cheaters like Busquets playing for them during their glory days doesn't help either. But that doesn't mean I don't recognise the merits of the team and their style of football.

Tbh, my preferred style of football is probably something more akin to the cavalier (where did that term come from again? ) style United employed under Fergie, but moreso something along the lines of the adaptability and flexibility that the treble-winning Bayern side of a few years ago employed to excellent effect. Klopp's Dortmund was something like that as well, but when it came to changing their approach a bit, they seemed to fall short. So in other words, while I appreciate Mourinho as a manager, his style is definitely not my preferred brand of football.

But yeah, I could never see him in the Old Trafford dugout. I could've right after Fergie retired, but I don't think the latter's 'handpicking' of Moyes as his successor would've gone down well with Jose's ego either. I think I'd like to see someone like Klopp, if he's still available, or someone who's willing to adapt their approach, without resorting to full-on defensive tactics, come into the OT dugout after LvG calls it quits. The latter has been moving us to a more 'continental' style of football (barring the rather frequent hoofing it up to Fellaini approach) and while I'm behind the manager all the way and trust in his vision, I would like us to be a bit more willing to compromise in terms of our approach sometimes, something which Fergie was more often than not willing to do (except when it came to CL finals against Barcelona, of course).

 

[Hunter Rider]

Rafael has signed for Lyon, one of my favourite players of Fergie's third cycle, glad he got a good club like Lyon.

 

[kit1982]

On Mourinho it is kind of refreshing to see a top manager actually value good defending. I find it embarrassing watching Champions League football and a good proportion of the cream of the crop in Europe flap everytime a high ball comes into the box

 

[Lilbaz]

Come on then you real madrid fans. Whats your predictions today?

I'm going for a 2-1 win for spurs.

 

[Slade W]

On Mourinho it is kind of refreshing to see a top manager actually value good defending. I find it embarrassing watching Champions League football and a good proportion of the cream of the crop in Europe flap everytime a high ball comes into the box

I honestly didn't see anything refreshing about the way his teams played against Atletico and PSG these last two seasons. They played for a draw away from home vs Atletico and paid for it in the 2nd leg when Atleti took advantage of the away goal rule. Playing defensively vs Atletico is pretty embarrassing IMO also. Atletico usually park the bus against big teams because they do not have the resources and attacking firepower of other clubs. They won the league and only scored 77 goals in 13/14 in comparison to Madrid who scored 104 and Barcelona who scored 101. Against PSG, his team defended deep for the majority of the match against a team with ten men whose striker had been sent off (unjustly I should say) and they went out for not showing any ambition going forward or attacking intent.

IMO the game is evolving and teams seem to be becoming more pro-active atm (or at least this is how it seems to me). Defenders and keepers are expected to be good on the ball for example and teams are looking to create chance from their own play rather than waiting for the opposition to make mistakes and gift them opportunities and this makes it difficult for teams to play as defensively as Chelsea because teams are getting better at opening up deep defences. Even teams like Atletico and Juventus who are pretty defensive are pro-active in how they press the oppositions defenders and prevent them (or at least make it difficult for them)to build from the back. Chelsea have not done that enough over the last two years IMO. I don't think he Mourinho deserves praise for his defensive performances in Europe and a team that plays that way will always be limited in how high a level they can reach (ie what I mean is if Chelsea keep playing the same way under Mourinho then they will never reach Guardiola's Barcelona or Bayern's in 12/13 level.

 

[BatmanBeyond]

On Mourinho it is kind of refreshing to see a top manager actually value good defending. I find it embarrassing watching Champions League football and a good proportion of the cream of the crop in Europe flap everytime a high ball comes into the box

Yep, agreed. Too many times I've seen so-called experts denigrate defending, especially when comparing it to other, so-called 'attractive' styles of football. That's the beauty of the game at the end of the day, you can win games, as well as trophies, by playing different styles of football, whether they emphasise the defensive or attacking sides of the game, or even a mixture of both. So I don't see why one style has to be made to look as a 'lesser' brand of football when compared to the other one.

I honestly didn't see anything refreshing about the way his teams played against Atletico and PSG these last two seasons. They played for a draw away from home vs Atletico and paid for it in the 2nd leg when Atleti took advantage of the away goal rule. Playing defensively vs Atletico is pretty embarrassing IMO also. Atletico usually park the bus against big teams because they do not have the resources and attacking firepower of other clubs. They won the league and only scored 77 goals in 13/14 in comparison to Madrid who scored 104 and Barcelona who scored 101. Against PSG, his team defended deep for the majority of the match against a team with ten men whose striker had been sent off (unjustly I should say) and they went out for not showing any ambition going forward or attacking intent.

IMO the game is evolving and teams seem to be becoming more pro-active atm (or at least this is how it seems to me). Defenders and keepers are expected to be good on the ball for example and teams are looking to create chance from their own play rather than waiting for the opposition to make mistakes and gift them opportunities and this makes it difficult for teams to play as defensively as Chelsea because teams are getting better at opening up deep defences. Even teams like Atletico and Juventus who are pretty defensive are pro-active in how they press the oppositions defenders and prevent them (or at least make it difficult for them)to build from the back. Chelsea have not done that enough over the last two years IMO. I don't think he Mourinho deserves praise for his defensive performances in Europe and a team that plays that way will always be limited in how high a level they can reach (ie what I mean is if Chelsea keep playing the same way under Mourinho then they will never reach Guardiola's Barcelona or Bayern's in 12/13 level.

I think those games were pretty much an indication that Jose's still human at the end of the day, the man can still get it wrong sometimes. When it comes to long-term success, Mourinho is also 'handicapped' by the fact that he usually doesn't stick around for long at just one club, although that seems to have changed during his second Chelsea spell. You never know when he'll have another spat with Roman, though.

 

[Iceman]

Will have to give Mourinho credit if he wins back to back titles.

 

[DeadPresident]

Nah, I can definitely understand why you find him tiring. I basically viewed him in the same light the first time he came to England.

I don't know, I personally find his opting for the 'results before style' philosophy to be a breath of fresh air, as well as counter-intuitively entertaining, in an age where everyone seems to be preaching a 'pure' brand of attractive football. That being said, I don't want to sound like I'm taking away from the success of the aforementioned Barca side - probably one of the best sides in club football and it kind of feels like a privilege to have seen them in action at their peak. It's the over-the-top praise and genuine ass-kissing of their very particular brand of football which grinds my gears. Nasty, dirty cheaters like Busquets playing for them during their glory days doesn't help either. But that doesn't mean I don't recognise the merits of the team and their style of football.

It is the polar opposite to what manager's like Wenger and Guardiola embody. Mourinho reminds me of Simeone, results are their primary concern. To a degree Barca's style also became quite utilitarian and results based when Pep went mad about possession. Instead of defending leads to get results, he made the team overly cautious eventually and just became gluttonous with possession. Barcelona have been unanimously successful for the last decade, but they didn't play attractive football all the time. The 05/06 season they looked great, same with Pep's two CL winning seasons and Enrique's first now. The majority of Pep's tenure was successful, but the football became a little too formulaic and bland, much the same way I experience Mourinho now. We'll see how long Mourinho holds on, he always seems to start falling apart from the 2nd-3rd season at a club.

Tbh, my preferred style of football is probably something more akin to the cavalier (where did that term come from again? ) style United employed under Fergie, but moreso something along the lines of the adaptability and flexibility that the treble-winning Bayern side of a few years ago employed to excellent effect. Klopp's Dortmund was something like that as well, but when it came to changing their approach a bit, they seemed to fall short. So in other words, while I appreciate Mourinho as a manager, his style is definitely not my preferred brand of football.

But yeah, I could never see him in the Old Trafford dugout. I could've right after Fergie retired, but I don't think the latter's 'handpicking' of Moyes as his successor would've gone down well with Jose's ego either. I think I'd like to see someone like Klopp, if he's still available, or someone who's willing to adapt their approach, without resorting to full-on defensive tactics, come into the OT dugout after LvG calls it quits. The latter has been moving us to a more 'continental' style of football (barring the rather frequent hoofing it up to Fellaini approach) and while I'm behind the manager all the way and trust in his vision, I would like us to be a bit more willing to compromise in terms of our approach sometimes, something which Fergie was more often than not willing to do (except when it came to CL finals against Barcelona, of course).

Haha Yeah, the cavalierness that Fergie brought would also be my preference. There was an equal balance of defense and offense, with a better midfield the CL winning squad from 07/08 (I think?) could have been one of the Champion's league's best ever. Very few teams have had that balance, most of them fall to one side or the other, too offensive and scrape by on scoring a ton of goals, too defensive, or in the case of Pep's recent development, too obsessed with possession.

I see LvG as a good guy to prepare a squad and good habits for a team. LvG's name and reputation alone is why half the signings went so smoothly, I'd bet. While LvG is definitely competent and a born winner I think he's a bit too pedantic and controlling. The player's don't seem to freely express themselves and become a bit too mechanical under his management. If United get some silverware by the end of his tenure I'd be happy, but I'm mostly looking at the long term. I'd be thrilled if Shaw, McNair, Memphis, Pereira, Januzaj and Wilson learn a ton about their trade and form a base of United's squad for the future. Pretty much everywhere van Gaal has been he left a solid base for the subsequent managers to use. At Barca he prepped a lot of what ended up being Rijkaard's successful team and at Bayern created the foundation of what Heynckes won the CL with. I'm hoping he can do the same with United.

 

[DeadPresident]

On Mourinho it is kind of refreshing to see a top manager actually value good defending. I find it embarrassing watching Champions League football and a good proportion of the cream of the crop in Europe flap everytime a high ball comes into the box

That's fair, but I keep asking myself what happened against PSG. Was the Mourinho's tactics, or were his players not up to it? Because that was a shockingly indisciplined and disrespectful approach to the game, that ended up biting Chelsea in the ass.

 

[Lilbaz]

That's fair, but I keep asking myself what happened against PSG. Was the Mourinho's tactics, or were his players not up to it? Because that was a shockingly indisciplined and disrespectful approach to the game, that ended up biting Chelsea in the ass.

It was a preseason friendly that was about getting fitness and sharpness up. I remember a few years ago we won all our preseason games including smashing roma 5-0. We then went into the season and got 2 points in our first 8 games. It was the worst i have ever seen a tottenham side play (and i've seen some terrible spurs sides) i really thought if we carried on we would be relegated. Luckily we sacked ramos and brought in harry who led us to playing some of the most exciting and at times beautiful football i have seen in the prem.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Will have to give Mourinho credit if he wins back to back titles.

He'll get credit, but this wouldn't exactly be the greatest field.

 

[DeadPresident]

It was a preseason friendly that was about getting fitness and sharpness up. I remember a few years ago we won all our preseason games including smashing roma 5-0. We then went into the season and got 2 points in our first 8 games. It was the worst i have ever seen a tottenham side play (and i've seen some terrible spurs sides) i really thought if we carried on we would be relegated. Luckily we sacked ramos and brought in harry who led us to playing some of the most exciting and at times beautiful football i have seen in the prem.

My bad, I was referring to Chelsea's matches against PSG in the Champion's League, not the preseason games.

 

[Iceman]

He'll get credit, but this wouldn't exactly be the greatest field.

As in wouldn't be the greatest title opposition? True yeah. If they play like the beginning of last season it would be a walkover. Although he gets props for organising them that way and looking unbeatable. At the same time he should be taking responsibility for and acknowledging his CL failure last time out.

 

[Lilbaz]

My bad, I was referring to Chelsea's matches against PSG in the Champion's League, not the preseason games.

I'll just get my coat...

 

[DarthSkywalker]

As in wouldn't be the greatest title opposition? True yeah. If they play like the beginning of last season it would be a walkover. Although he gets props for organising them that way and looking unbeatable. At the same time he should be taking responsibility for and acknowledging his CL failure last time out.

That is what I meant and I agree on all fronts.

 

[Lilbaz]

Should have been 1-0 spurs. Lamela can't get s break.

 

[Lilbaz]

1-0 madrid ��

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Isco + James = Gold

I can't believe we put in Vazquez over Asensio.

 

[kit1982]

I honestly didn't see anything refreshing about the way his teams played against Atletico and PSG these last two seasons. They played for a draw away from home vs Atletico and paid for it in the 2nd leg when Atleti took advantage of the away goal rule. Playing defensively vs Atletico is pretty embarrassing IMO also. Atletico usually park the bus against big teams because they do not have the resources and attacking firepower of other clubs. They won the league and only scored 77 goals in 13/14 in comparison to Madrid who scored 104 and Barcelona who scored 101. Against PSG, his team defended deep for the majority of the match against a team with ten men whose striker had been sent off (unjustly I should say) and they went out for not showing any ambition going forward or attacking intent.

IMO the game is evolving and teams seem to be becoming more pro-active atm (or at least this is how it seems to me). Defenders and keepers are expected to be good on the ball for example and teams are looking to create chance from their own play rather than waiting for the opposition to make mistakes and gift them opportunities and this makes it difficult for teams to play as defensively as Chelsea because teams are getting better at opening up deep defences. Even teams like Atletico and Juventus who are pretty defensive are pro-active in how they press the oppositions defenders and prevent them (or at least make it difficult for them)to build from the back. Chelsea have not done that enough over the last two years IMO. I don't think he Mourinho deserves praise for his defensive performances in Europe and a team that plays that way will always be limited in how high a level they can reach (ie what I mean is if Chelsea keep playing the same way under Mourinho then they will never reach Guardiola's Barcelona or Bayern's in 12/13 level.

Eh I'm always a little reluctant to go on about the game evolving, that Bayern team you mentioned were brilliant but they were everything that experts had declared dead after Guardiola's reign at the top. It was essentially a 4-4-2, a reliance on two wide men, 2 men up top and a physicality in the middle. Things go in and out of vogue but IMO it's always the same game.

I agree on the Athletico game, I *****ed about it on here but as BB points out surely it just proves that no tactic or gaffer is full proof, if it's done badly it's never going to get you results. Chelsea won a CL playing 11 men behind the ball whilst a team like Arsenal went out to a crap Monaco side because they couldn't.
Ironically I think they went out to PSG because his main weapon, the back 4 let him down. We all seem to overlook the fact that despite a defensive display they scored 3 goals over 2 legs, as many as Juve did against Real this year, that should've been enough for Chelsea.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Eh I'm always a little reluctant to go on about the game evolving, that Bayern team you mentioned were brilliant but they were everything that experts had declared dead after Guardiola's reign at the top. It was essentially a 4-4-2, a reliance on two wide men, 2 men up top and a physicality in the middle. Things go in and out of vogue but IMO it's always the same game.

I agree on the Athletico game, I *****ed about it on here but as BB points out surely it just proves that no tactic or gaffer is full proof, if it's done badly it's never going to get you results. Chelsea won a CL playing 11 men behind the ball whilst a team like Arsenal went out to a crap Monaco side because they couldn't.
Ironically I think they went out to PSG because his main weapon, the back 4 let him down. We all seem to overlook the fact that despite a defensive display they scored 3 goals over 2 legs, as many as Juve did against Real this year, that should've been enough for Chelsea.

Too be fair, that Bayern team was ridiculously talented in terms of skill and technique, everyone could function in multiple ways and on occasion did, so it wasn't typical of more classical 4-4-2. I also don't remember them quite lining up that way. I thought it was a 4-2-3-1, but I am not sure.