The "we're sorry, Brett" thread...

[X-Maniac]

Speaking of original reviews, I just think it's interesting how opposite LastSunrise1981 and I were in our original reviews, only to flip flop our positions to complete opposites down the road:

Well, the movie's shortcomings are obvious even to most of those who liked the movie.

I wonder what the writers and actors now think of the finished result. I wonder also how much of the writing never got as far as the screen. I can't believe though that anyone knowing, liking or respecting the X-Men would kill Cyclops off like that - surely this must have been a studio mandate!?

 

[Theweepeople]

I don't remember if I've ever contributed to this thread but, I can definitely relate to the title. I'm sorry Brett was allowed to direct this film.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

I don't remember if I've ever contributed to this thread but, I can definitely relate to the title. I'm sorry Brett was allowed to direct this film.

That's my general feelings as well. I contributed to the thread during it's early creation and my initial review was positive, for at the time I was just happy to receive an X-Men film.

Once I started looking at the bigger picture and realizing what Fox, Kinberg, Penn, and Ratner did to the overall concept, that's when I started to get pretty angry and bitter about how they turned a masterpiece of a story into an ADD action film. It's not the worst film in the world, far from it.

I just wish they'd either waited for Singer to be finished with Superman or they hired a different director who's more focused, determined, and pays great attention to detail.

 

[Storm22]

Are you sure it wasn't that you were just initially positive about the film after judging it on its own merits, but then allowed the behind the scenes politics change your perceptions of the film itself LastSunrise?? I'm not being disrespectful and you're totally entitled to your opinion but I just think alot of people here can't seperate the film as a piece of work from the actual politics surrounding it. As it stands on its own I think X3 is a very good film, sure it's flawed and not as good as X2 (which imo is a difficult benchmark to reach anyway) but I still think it's a worthy addition to the X-Men franchise.

Now I'm sure that if I allowed myself think about it long and hard enough and allowed myself become very bitter towards Fox, Rothman, Kinberg, Penn etc. that that hatred would probably influence my opinion on the movie but I don't see the point in doing so. I enjoyed X3 and still do and from your initial review it seems that you did too but, as X-Maniac said, you seem to have become embittered by the politics etc. and have let that influence your opinion of the film.

 

[ThE_PhOeNiX]

I will never understand why Singer choose Berry.

i hear (so i don't affirm it)that Fox put her in the movie against his will.

Somebody know more about that?

The original pick for Storm was Angela Bassett but she turned it down so they went with next person. I think they choose Halle cause they knew she would take any job no matter how much it paid knowing she wouldn't get a good part or good screen time.

 

[Havok83]

The original pick for Storm was Angela Bassett but she turned it down so they went with next person. I think they choose Halle cause they knew she would take any job no matter how much it paid knowing she wouldn't get a good part or good screen time.

She was really offered the part? I didnt know that. I always thought she would have made the perfect Storm

 

[X-Maniac]

The original pick for Storm was Angela Bassett but she turned it down so they went with next person. I think they choose Halle cause they knew she would take any job no matter how much it paid knowing she wouldn't get a good part or good screen time.

Rubbish.

 

[X-Maniac]

She was really offered the part? I didnt know that. I always thought she would have made the perfect Storm

Who knows. It's not part of any official information on her that she was offered the part. I doubt she'd have done it because the role of Storm (especially in X1) was not very substantial or powerful.

 

[Theweepeople]

Rubbish.

What part of that was rubbish? Angela Basset was cast as Storm in X-Men.

http://www.notstarring.com/movies/x-men

 

[X-Maniac]

What part of that was rubbish? Angela Basset was cast as Storm in X-Men.

http://www.notstarring.com/movies/x-men

She wasn't cast. It's rumoured she was offered the part. But most official biog information on Angela never mentions this at all, so I'm suspicious about it. It has the hallmarks of an internet rumour spread like a virus!

The part that was absolutely rubbish was that Halle would take any role for whatever money.

But... whatever....

Angela would never go near the part anyway; it isn't a powerful female lead role, which she tends to prefer.

 

[Asteroid-Man]

Ratner's a great director, the tone didn't match Singer's tone though. Either way it still could've worked if we had the original X-Men Movie Theme song in this one and a better script and if it was longer.

 

[BMM]

She wasn't cast. It's rumoured she was offered the part. But most official biog information on Angela never mentions this at all, so I'm suspicious about it. It has the hallmarks of an internet rumour spread like a virus!

The part that was absolutely rubbish was that Halle would take any role for whatever money.

But... whatever....

Angela would never go near the part anyway; it isn't a powerful female lead role, which she tends to prefer.

I believe Goddess said that Bassett was offered the role but turned it down... and then recanted the fact that she was offered the role when the X-Men franchise was a proven blockbuster...

Regardless, I would have been more interested in what Angela Bassett would have brought to the role of Storm rather than what the role of Storm would have brought to Angela Bassett.

But what's done is done... Haha... and in this case, this is very much an old issue.

 

[Theweepeople]

Ratner's a great director, the tone didn't match Singer's tone though. Either way it still could've worked if we had the original X-Men Movie Theme song in this one and a better script and if it was longer.

Are you serious? Were any of Ratner's films considered classics or have cult followings? I haven't seen all of the movies he directed but, the ones I have seen were popcorn flicks. Some were very bad popcorn flicks.

Ratner's movies: X3, After the Sunset, Red Dragon, Rush Hour 1, Rush Hour 2, The Family Man, Rush Hour, Money Talks.

 

[KenK]

Are you sure it wasn't that you were just initially positive about the film after judging it on its own merits, but then allowed the behind the scenes politics change your perceptions of the film itself LastSunrise?? I'm not being disrespectful and you're totally entitled to your opinion but I just think alot of people here can't seperate the film as a piece of work from the actual politics surrounding it. As it stands on its own I think X3 is a very good film, sure it's flawed and not as good as X2 (which imo is a difficult benchmark to reach anyway) but I still think it's a worthy addition to the X-Men franchise.

Now I'm sure that if I allowed myself think about it long and hard enough and allowed myself become very bitter towards Fox, Rothman, Kinberg, Penn etc. that that hatred would probably influence my opinion on the movie but I don't see the point in doing so. I enjoyed X3 and still do and from your initial review it seems that you did too but, as X-Maniac said, you seem to have become embittered by the politics etc. and have let that influence your opinion of the film.

I'm sorry, but separating the politics behind this film from a stand-alone view of it is next to impossible. The filmmakers that made the franchise a commercial and critical success with the first two movies were ready and willing to go ahead with a third film, and the studio made it clear they didn't want anything to do with them. The end result was a script that a lot of people downright hated, one director who came on and then quit six weeks before shooting was to begin, then another director having to come on who can't effectively do his job when he has no real prep-time. How good of a job can a director do on a large-scale action film with only a little over a month to prepare? Especially if studio executives have already made decisions on elements a director should be involved with.

The result is a film that clearly looks rushed and half-hearted. Not to mention the flat-out lying:

The Lie: "Oh, there are gonna be sentinels in the film!" - The Truth: "There's gonna be a generic robot head in a Danger Room sequence."

The Lie: "Cyclops plays a major part in the film" THe Truth: "We kill him off in the first twenty minutes."

The Lie: Cyclops and Angel in promotional photos wearing X-uniforms, as if they're involved in action scenes in the film. The Truth: Angel appears out of nowhere to save his dad, and that's it. And remember, Cyclops has been dead for essentially the whole movie.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I'm sorry, but separating the politics behind this film from a stand-alone view of it is next to impossible.

Why not? I did.

I'm not saying that LastSunrise didn't (I'll give the benefit of the doubt on his drastic opinion change, since I had just as drastic an opinion change on the film), but it's very simple to separate the politics from the actual film. I do it all the time, everytime I watch the film.

It's called judging a movie on it's own merits.

 

[Theweepeople]

I'm sorry, but separating the politics behind this film from a stand-alone view of it is next to impossible. The filmmakers that made the franchise a commercial and critical success with the first two movies were ready and willing to go ahead with a third film, and the studio made it clear they didn't want anything to do with them. The end result was a script that a lot of people downright hated, one director who came on and then quit six weeks before shooting was to begin, then another director having to come on who can't effectively do his job when he has no real prep-time. How good of a job can a director do on a large-scale action film with only a little over a month to prepare? Especially if studio executives have already made decisions on elements a director should be involved with.

Even if the politics of the production history for this film are ignored I still think X3 is a poorly made movie. There were way too many characters with little character development. Multiple mischaracterizations of characters in the film. Many plotholes. The movie was at least 30 minutes too short. Some of the special effects looked unfinished. The film had horrible dialogue. The film had no clear theme. What was the theme of the film?:

A. When a close friend becomes deranged completely give up on that person?

B. Try and save a mentally deranged friend and then when all hope appears to be lost kill her?

C. If you have the opportunity to get rid of a genetic defect take this opportunity even when there is a strong possibility the defect will come back?

D. Having sex is more important then learning to accept the possibility of having to live with a genetic defect?

E. When a close comrade is missing don't look for him or her?

F. When a close friend is grieving the lose of a loved one completely give up on the possibility of them ever having a role in leadership again?

G. After realizing the potential of a pupil's special talent that could be used for good or evil hinder that person from reaching their potential so their is no possibility for evil to assert itself?

H. Smile outside of a window after contemplating the death's of a mentor, a comrade, and the woman you lusted for?

I. Keep a brain dead person alive for many years if the body can be used to save the life of another person?

The result is a film that clearly looks rushed and half-hearted. Not to mention the flat-out lying:

The Lie: "Oh, there are gonna be sentinels in the film!" - The Truth: "There's gonna be a generic robot head in a Danger Room sequence."

The Lie: "Cyclops plays a major part in the film" THe Truth: "We kill him off in the first twenty minutes."

The Lie: Cyclops and Angel in promotional photos wearing X-uniforms, as if they're involved in action scenes in the film. The Truth: Angel appears out of nowhere to save his dad, and that's it. And remember, Cyclops has been dead for essentially the whole movie.

Don't forget Tom Rothman's "This is going to be our Return of the King" garbage.

Don't forget Fox's lawsuit against Ain't it cool news to remove a review about X3 they said was false in January of 2006 that turned out to be pretty accurate.

Don't forget all of Simon Kinberg's lies at thexverse.com.

Don't forget Fox's false spoilers about the movie in September of 2005.
These spoilers made the movie sound epic.

http://www.**************.com/news/articles/2306.asp

In retrospect it is impossible for me to separate the politics from the movie but, even if I could I'm sure I would still hate X3.

 

[X-Maniac]

Even if the politics of the production history for this film are ignored I still think X3 is a poorly made movie. There were way too many characters with little character development. Multiple mischaracterizations of characters in the film. Many plotholes. The movie was at least 30 minutes too short. Some of the special effects looked unfinished. The film had horrible dialogue. The film had no clear theme. What was the theme of the film?:

A. When a close friend becomes deranged completely give up on that person?

B. Try and save a mentally deranged friend and then when all hope appears to be lost kill her?

C. If you have the opportunity to get rid of a genetic defect take this opportunity even when there is a strong possibility the defect will come back?

D. Having sex is more important then learning to accept the possibility of having to live with a genetic defect?

E. When a close comrade is missing don't look for him or her?

F. When a close friend is grieving the lose of a loved one completely give up on the possibility of them ever having a role in leadership again?

G. After realizing the potential of a pupil's special talent that could be used for good or evil hinder that person from reaching their potential so their is no possibility for evil to assert itself?

H. Smile outside of a window after contemplating the death's of a mentor, a comrade, and the woman you lusted for?

I. Keep a brain dead person alive for many years if the body can be used to save the life of another person?

Brett Ratner said the theme was 'choice'.

I saw it as that, choice coming from personal responsibility and the use and misuse of power.

Worthington Snr, the president, Magneto, Xavier and Phoenix - and also Rogue, Angel, Beast, Wolverine, Storm - were each faced with major decisions and responsibilities, and had to make choices (good or bad) that created consequences they had to live with, or die by, or die for. Worthington Snr, the president, Magneto, Xavier and Phoenix misused their power to do something forcibly, they made choices with terrible consequences. The others reacted to those choices.

To be honest, I saw these themes fairly obviously. I can't see obvious themes in X1 and X2.

 

[KenK]

Brett Ratner said the theme was 'choice'.

I saw it as that, choice coming from personal responsibility and the use and misuse of power.

Worthington Snr, the president, Magneto, Xavier and Phoenix - and also Rogue, Angel, Beast, Wolverine, Storm - were each faced with major decisions and responsibilities, and had to make choices (good or bad) that created consequences they had to live with, or die by, or die for. Worthington Snr, the president, Magneto, Xavier and Phoenix misused their power to do something forcibly, they made choices with terrible consequences. The others reacted to those choices.

To be honest, I saw these themes fairly obviously. I can't see obvious themes in X1 and X2.

The theme means nothing if it's poorly developed. The fact that it was bloated with characters, and few of them developed beyond one scene of them looking pensive, was a big factor. Not to mention the things that were promised to be in the film, but weren't.

 

[X-Maniac]

The theme means nothing if it's poorly developed. The fact that it was bloated with characters, and few of them developed beyond one scene of them looking pensive, was a big factor. Not to mention the things that were promised to be in the film, but weren't.

I don't agree here. The theme was stamped all over the movie. And the movie does have a theme, unlike the first two X-movies.

I can understand the disappointments; I share them too but I dealt with them as soon as I knew about the changes in creative team. It's less than intelligent to be surprised by the content of the movie, given the fact that online fans on here knew the details more than anyone else did.

The number of characters is not really an issue in a movie about a final showdown. Cameo roles were bound to happen. What hurt the movie was editing/runtime.

But the theme was transparently obvious. Xavier and Magneto talk of 'power corrupts', Xavier tells Wolveirne of his terrible choice regarding Jean, Storm argues with Wolverine over making a choice. Beast argues with the president over the cure weaponisation choice. You'd have to be pretty dense not to have noticed a theme that was mentioned throughout the movie.

 

[Theweepeople]

Brett Ratner said the theme was 'choice'.

I saw it as that, choice coming from personal responsibility and the use and misuse of power.

Worthington Snr, the president, Magneto, Xavier and Phoenix - and also Rogue, Angel, Beast, Wolverine, Storm - were each faced with major decisions and responsibilities, and had to make choices (good or bad) that created consequences they had to live with, or die by, or die for. Worthington Snr, the president, Magneto, Xavier and Phoenix misused their power to do something forcibly, they made choices with terrible consequences. The others reacted to those choices.

That's very relative. In some sense this theme can be applied to every film that I've seen.

To be honest, I saw these themes fairly obviously. I can't see obvious themes in X1 and X2.

Oh really. So you didn't see the themes of evolution in X1 and X2 that are made obvious from Xavier's intro speeches. I guess you also failed to notice the theme of the destruction that racial prejudice can cause in the first two films. You also, missed the themes of making choices for good and evil in both movies. Finally, you missed the themes of using faith or hate to survive(Nightcrawler's scene with Storm in the X2). There are plenty of themes in the first two X-Men movies and anyone who can't see these themes must be dense.

I can also, think of one theme in X3 that is sympathetic to the gay movement and then criticizes it through the obvious message of assimilation. It's no wonder that so many gay writers were ticked off with this movie.

 

[cronosred]

Thank you Brett Ratner for giving us a fun, entertaining sequel that fits well with the first two since Fox was to slow to hire Singer back and Singer abandoned X-men as fast as he could when he heard Superman calling. Although the studio put some stupid stipulations on this movie and the writers made some choices I wouldn't have you still did a fine job.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Thank you Brett Ratner for giving us a fun, entertaining sequel that fits well with the first two since Fox was to slow to hire Singer back and Singer abandoned X-men as fast as he could when he heard Superman calling. Although the studio put some stupid stipulations on this movie and the writers made some choices I wouldn't have you still did a fine job.

In Singer's defense I would've done the same. Think about it, you direct two blockbusters that bring Fox a lot of money and they don't resign you? They don't resign the actors to keep them from prior engagements? They continue to give him the runaround and constantly cut his budget for the first two films?

If it was me, I would've left too. Granted by having total creative freedom doesn't mean you make a great movie either. Superman Returns was a fine film, and I love it very much. However, it's quite obvious that not everyone loves it and has even called for Singer to be fired.

Ratner just didn't do it for me. If anything he made the X-Men into an ADD action like film with no real substance to the story.

 

[X-Maniac]

That's very relative. In some sense this theme can be applied to every film that I've seen.

That's fair comment in as much as dramatic conflict forms the basis of movie storylines, and difficult choices would create such a conflict. I agree there is an element of the theme of choice in other movies, and in the other X-movies too, though i don't think 'choice' was the main theme of X1 and X2. It could also be argued that X3's main theme was 'power corrupts' as there was a lot of misuse of power in the movie - by Worthington Snr, the president (weaponising the cure), Xavier's mental blocks, Jean Grey, Magneto's terrorism...

The cure itself represents that dilemma of choice - should we be what we are, or if the chance comes to be like everyone else, would we take it? If you were born with fur or a set of antennae or a third eye in the middle of your forehead or a tail or no legs, would you want to take an option that would allow you to fit in - as Beast says, the desire for a cure depends on the exact nature of one's mutation.

The idea of choice is extended into the rest of the movie - Xavier ‘I had a terrible choice and i chose the lesser of two evils’; Storm to Logan: ‘She’s made her choice, it’s time you made yours’, Rogue chooses the cure, Beast chooses to leave the government to be ‘where I’m needed most’ after the president chooses to weaponise the cure... etc etc...

Oh really. So you didn't see the themes of evolution in X1 and X2 that are made obvious from Xavier's intro speeches. I guess you also failed to
notice the theme of the destruction that racial prejudice can cause in the first two films. You also, missed the themes of making choices for good and
evil in both movies. Finally, you missed the themes of using faith or hate to survive(Nightcrawler's scene with Storm in the X2). There are plenty of
themes in the first two X-Men movies and anyone who can't see these themes must be dense.

I regard evolution is a theme of the X-Men as a whole and all three movies; it’s not particular to the first two movies though it is prominent in the
voiceovers. Evolution is also part of Jean Grey’s story in X3 (Magneto says to her in the camp that they thought she represented the next stage in
evolution). Prejudice and good/evil are themes that extend to all three X-movies too. Faith is particular to X2 but hardly a theme of the entire movie, more a sub-theme that gives character to Nightcrawler and some characterisation to Storm.

On the whole, I suppose the theme of X1 is alienation caused by difference and persecution of people for that difference - Wolverine, Rogue, the X-Men themselves, seem like outcasts and people either in hiding or on the run. The theme of X2 seems more like the idea of having to stand together to beat a common threat.

I can also, think of one theme in X3 that is sympathetic to the gay movement and then criticizes it through the obvious message of assimilation. It's no wonder that so many gay writers were ticked off with this movie.

Well, you can blame Joss Whedon for his Cure storyline which was the basis for the movie story. And it is controversial. In real life, there is great controversy over the absurd claims/attempts of curing homosexuality, and controversy over cochlear implants which can cure deafness - the deaf community is divided and many are offended by the notion that their deafness is seen as a disease, despite the fact that it is caused by a medical/physiological 'malfunction' of the ear.

Gay people shouldn't be ticked off with the movie for taking this already-established comicbook storyline. They should have been siding with either Storm or Magneto!

 

[X-Maniac]

Ratner just didn't do it for me. If anything he made the X-Men into an ADD action like film with no real substance to the story.

I think the story had substance, but it didn't always 'breathe' enough for its emotion to be fully felt. I don't know if that's down to camerawork, editing, or to the runtime that was demanded by the execs, or what....

 

[Rac]

I'm sorry Brett, but X3 sucks, still.