The Wrestling Thread: Woo woo woo, you know it!

[Metallo]

I dont "disregard" match quality. I need matches to be fun and exciting. However, what constitutes a "good match" to me is apparently completely different than what makes a good match to you.

The Rock is my favorite ever because his personality and his promos were out of this world. But he was also one of my favorites to watch in the ring because his personality was completely reflected in his ring style.

Was The Rock a great technical wrestler? No. If anyone fought in real life the way Rock did, they'd be in a hospital. There was nothing believable about his fighting style. If this were real fighting, The Rock could not be a credible champion.

But its not real fighting. Its scripted, and these guys are characters. So therefore he became "believable", and thus, credible.

While The Miz isn't a great technical master, I find his ring work to be very enjoyable from a character standpoint. But even more importantly I think that Miz is a great character guy. His character work gets me invested in his matches. Miz has gone a long way in getting me hyped for this wrestlemania match. Yes, The Rock's involvement is a huge contributor, but The Miz is getting me excited for the match in his own right.

Fact is this. When it comes to wrestling, I want my main event to feature great characters first and foremost. The midcarders I feel is the place for the in ring standouts who dont quite have the character. Guys like Jeff hardy, Chris Benoit, hart dynasty, dolph ziggler, John Morrison, these are all guys in my book who have little to no character, but are great ring workers. They belong on the card, but not in the main event. Then you have guys like Shawn Michaels, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, etc... who are great workers and great characters too. Thus, it makes these guys all time greats.

But yes, in the main event particularly, I need guys who can carry a story first. If they aren't amazing in ring, that's one thing, but then again, none of the guys who I've loved have ever been lame in the ring. Rock, Austin, Jericho, Michaels, Kurt Angle, Triple H, Undertaker, these guys all brought something to their style even if they weren't the greatest (and some of these guys are). Same with Orton, Cena, Batista, and a lot of these new guys. I've never been bored by a Cena match, or an Orton match, due to their abilities in the ring. I might get bored by the predictable outcome, but I've never been bored by Cena's abilities.

The Miz is no Michaels in the ring. Maybe he's not even Cena. But im not bored by Miz in the ring. I enjoy him as a character, greatly, and his in ring skill as at worst, adequate, to me to be a main eventer.

So perhaps what we have here isn't so much me disregarding match quality, but me having a different definition of a quality match.

Most people here want a fun entertaining match they can buy into. There's nothing "different" about that. i don't think Miz can carry a story exceptionally well inside or outside of the ring. Why is he doing as well as he is now? Well look who he's working with.

As for the Rock/Miz comparison...its got nothing to do with Rock being a technical wrestler. It doesn't matter what they style is as long as people can do something, anything, very well.

The Rocks style was broad and over the top but the man was an amazing athlete...and the Miz is nowhere close to being the pure athlete the Rock was. THATS why the Rock looked believable as a top guy. Not only was he a great athlete but he was a great athlete at close to 6'4." Rock is/was a BIG MAN. The Miz isn't tiny but by wrestling sizes he's average sized at best. I could believe The Rock in there with Austin and Hogan just from an in ring standpoint. I'm not talking about size but the skills he had in his arsenal and a strong enough personality/force of will coupled with his skill.

If Miz had been put in the same ring as Hogan even in his prime it'd be laughable. Miz would't be good enough to job to Hogan. Hogan fought a lot of guys Miz's size but they had something they did exceptionally well to look credible as challenges. Savage and Piper jump to mind. So does Paul Orndorf. So does Shawn Michaels. They all brought something special to the ring but they all have styles different from each other.

The Rock was great at telling a story in the ring...even during his first world title run. The Rock had speed and power going for him...what does the Miz have going for him? Thats the problem with him...he doesn't really do anything exceptionally well.

Austin was no amazing technical wrestler but he could look credible outfistfighing damn near anyone. Bret Hart wasn't the biggest toughest guy but he had the in ring mat based arsenal that made you respect what he could accomplish. Hogan was no great wrestler but he looked believable as a powerhouse. Roddy Piper would fight like a wild man.

Miz's style is generic...and its not even something he can do amazingly well. You talk about characters...Miz doesn't really have much of one as soon as he steps between the ropes. He doesn't have that ferocity of Piper or Austin either...and thats something thats character based. What I'm talking about goes beyond the mechanics of wrestling and into the personality aspect.

Austin had a style that he could do well, look believable doing, and it stood out from everyone else. Miz really doesn't. He's got a character but that character should seep into his in ring style and it really hasn't. Maybe because the character isn't that strong and more of a generalized *****bag who's like the little smartass kid who likes to yap.

 

[NotFadeAway]

As a Miz fan, I accept that Cena will win the title at Mania. The best I hope for is that it is an even match. I want Miz going toe to toe with Cena every step of the way. An even 30 minute match. I'd like their to be a three minute or so sequence of Miz in the ****, refusing to tap and eventually making his way to the ropes.

Look, the Miz is not the greatest WRESTLER on the planet, never will be. But he has the making of a great SUPERSTAR, like it or not. Miz is the best thing to happen to the WWE in the last 6 years, though if CM Punk would just be treated right it would he would have been bigger.

 

[Metallo]

As a Miz fan, I accept that Cena will win the title at Mania. The best I hope for is that it is an even match. I want Miz going toe to toe with Cena every step of the way. An even 30 minute match. I'd like their to be a three minute or so sequence of Miz in the ****, refusing to tap and eventually making his way to the ropes.

Look, the Miz is not the greatest WRESTLER on the planet, never will be. But he has the making of a great SUPERSTAR, like it or not. Miz is the best thing to happen to the WWE in the last 6 years, though if CM Punk would just be treated right it would he would have been bigger.

Miz could be a great midcard superstar...but if you look at all the great superstars who were at the top long term over the years most of them had something they could do exceptionally well that earned them their place there.

Punk is a guy that DOES look credible as a type guy. I'd find Punk more believable as a challenge to Hogan in his prime than I ever would the Miz. Punk's got a unique style and an edge to him. When he attacked Cena and first formed his new Nexus he looked like a top guy. Any top guy should look like he could be able to face with anyone else and have some kind of chance to win.

Punk helped Jeff Hardy put on one of the best WWE fueds in recent years. Punk could step in the ring and look credible against anyone.

CM Punk should be heading into Wrestlemania to face Cena instead of The Miz. THAT feels more like a Wrestlemania worthy match to me.

 

[Heretic]

Match quality...eh...

What makes a great match is simple...are people entertained.

Sometimes a CLASSIC match can happen where hardly a wrestling move is made...and the reason why is match build up and crowd reaction. Hogan vs Andre isn't a 5 star mat classic...but it's a great match because the room was electric...you could feel the energy about to explode. One could say the same for The Rock vs Hogan.

Other times, a great match can happen just because it's a great match. If it's two midcarders who haven't been given a storyline to develop then maybe they'll have to work extra hard to pull the crowd into it...but it happens, and when it does it's awesome.

Regardless, the matches that really stay in your memory...the ones that become legendary...are the ones that tell a story. It's the final confrontations in an epic feud...the incredible spectacles. Sure, we all appreciate a great display of skill, but Hogan slamming Andre, The Rockers break up and Mick Foley's teeth falling out of his nose will be remembered long after Beer Money vs Machine Guns has been forgotten.

 

[Metallo]

Thats the point I was trying to make. People want to be entertained. I think we all agree thats the highest definition of match quality. This is Wrestlemania. Is the Miz a Wrestlemania level entertainer like a Hogan, Austin, Michaels, Rock or even Cena? Not in my book. I guess we'll find out for sure after history judges.

Those guys were larger than life. Love or hate Hogan but he was a megastar when he went into Wrestlemania as champion or trying to win it back. Most fo his matches had a big feel that matched the hype for the event.



...And I'll take the worst Beer Money vs MCMG match over the Miz's best match any day.

 

[Heretic]

I think (opinion) that The Miz could be the right guy...but he hasnt been handled properly.

The guy is a natural on the mic, and gets better and better in the ring...and he has mainstream crossover appeal and is better at doing tv interviews etc than almost anyone else in WWE.

The issue is that they buried him for so long...even as champ...that much of his time must be spent defending why he deserves to even be on tv.

Remember when he kept challenging Cena week after week and Cena never responded? Cena finally destroyed him easily twice. Imagine if they had never fought??? Imagine if this Wrestlemania match was the FIRST time they fought...and we all knew that The Miz had been waiting for this moment for a year...waiting to show that he's better than Cena. Coupled with strong wins over Orton (not the wins he actually got) and I believe that people would be buying into this more. I think the mainstream fans who tuned in to see The Rock and saw that the guy from The Real World is champ are buying into him as a heel...the problem is that wrestling fans have seen Cena very easily destroy The Miz before...and we've seen that The Miz cant beat a 60 year old retired man without help. The Miz is a potential long term top tier guy...but WWE has saddled him with a ton of baggage.

 

[Metallo]

Everyone here acknowledges that Miz was booked weakly for a long time...but is it the bookers fault that The Miz isn't a better wrestler? And i'm not just talking about mat wrestling.

We've seen people booked horribly that could put on better matches. Punk was booked badly during his first world title run but he was still great on the mic and the ring.

Hogan was no great wrestler but he could sell and he could tell a great story in the ring. other great main eventers of the past always had SOMETHING the did well. Tell me what the Miz does well...in the ring as champion. Not on the mic but in the ring. He cna be amazing on the mic but he needs more than good mic work to to be WWE champion and look believable keeping it.

Its not the bookers fault that The Miz isn't a particularly strong ring presence.

 

[Hotwire]

So, with this thread likely to be future endeavored by the end of the week, what shall we call the new one?


I guess tonight we should have the final card for WrestleMania, so we're gonna need a predictions thread, too.


I was showing my wife some video of Sin Cara this morning. Ahe pointed out that his name, is Spanish, means, "without a face", or, "faceless". I just thought that was interesting.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Yes. The new season just started. The first elimination isn't until tomorrow night and I have a very hard time believing he'll be booted first.

I don't see him lasting long.

 

[Nemi]

I liked the ''I bring it via the wrestling thread'' suggestion.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

With The Rock when you removed his talking you still had the look, the magnificent athletic ability, the explosive offense and the bumping, so with Rock I saw a main event guy that was more than merely adequate, the guys you list I get it, I really do, they are packages who could deliver and were believable, however your Miz thing makes zero sense to me because unlike Rock or the limited Batista, he ticks not a single box.

Okay, but for me, he ticks the character box better than anyone in the company right now.

I enjoy his character work better than anyone else on the roster. Better than Cena, better than Orton, better than Punk. That is the box that he ticks for me that makes him stand out and belong in the main event.

Is he AS GOOD AS The Rock? Is he AS GOOD AS Austin? No. He's not. But, except for a brief appearance at WrestleMania to build hype, these guys aren't on the roster anymore. And with The Rock being involved in Miz' match and storyline going into WrestleMania, I have become impressed by The Miz because I feel he is completely holding his own with The Rock. That's what has impressed me the most. Cena cut a bad ass promo on The Rock, and Cena shot up in my book. But then he's resorted to crap since then. Miz, however, has hung tall and credible with The Rock, and completely outshined Cena in the character and promo department. Thus, he has earned my respect as a character worker and catapulted himself in my eyes as one of my favorites.

THAT'S the box he ticks. For me. Maybe not for you, but he ticks that box for me. And The Miz and everything he's doing right now is a major reason why I am 100% pumped up for WrestleMania.

 

[Heretic]

Everyone here acknowledges that Miz was booked weakly for a long time...but is it the bookers fault that The Miz isn't a better wrestler? And i'm not just talking about mat wrestling.

We've seen people booked horribly that could put on better matches. Punk was booked badly during his first world title run but he was still great on the mic and the ring.

Hogan was no great wrestler but he could sell and he could tell a great story in the ring. other great main eventers of the past always had SOMETHING the did well. Tell me what the Miz does well...in the ring as champion. Not on the mic but in the ring. He cna be amazing on the mic but he needs more than good mic work to to be WWE champion and look believable keeping it.

Its not the bookers fault that The Miz isn't a particularly strong ring presence.

I guess I just see something in him that you don't. Yeah...The Miz has a pretty goofy looking face, which is not generally a main event level quality. However, when he debuted he was AWFUL in the ring...and he's gotten much, much better. There is still something lacking...whether it's the 5 moves of doom, a better finisher...something flashy he does in matches to get a pop...basic storytelling...but I definitely think he has improved and DOES have the mic skills and charisma needed to main event. WWE didn't bother even trying to get anyone ready until they were desperate, so they started throwing guys at the wall to see who sticks.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Match quality...eh...

What makes a great match is simple...are people entertained.

This, times a million.

If I listed my favorite all time matches, barring a couple (cuz HBK vs. Taker 2 is on the list), I'd probably get a bunch of "meh" responses.

My favorite matches are all about the moments that happened. The Rock vs. Triple H, Backlash 2000 - finally winning the title from Triple H, and one upping the McMahon-Helmsley Regime, with Austin beating the absolute hell out of Vince's cronies on his way to the ring.

The Rock v. Triple H, Judgment Day 2000 - Undertaker returning to lay waste to Triple H, but in the process, costing The Rock the title.

And for those same reasons, I know I'm going to love The Miz v. Cena, because the story has been hyped too much, and the involvement of The Rock, something big time and memorable is going to happen in the match that's going to make it memorable.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Okay, but for me, he ticks the character box better than anyone in the company right now.

I enjoy his character work better than anyone else on the roster. Better than Cena, better than Orton, better than Punk. That is the box that he ticks for me that makes him stand out and belong in the main event.

Is he AS GOOD AS The Rock? Is he AS GOOD AS Austin? No. He's not. But, except for a brief appearance at WrestleMania to build hype, these guys aren't on the roster anymore. And with The Rock being involved in Miz' match and storyline going into WrestleMania, I have become impressed by The Miz because I feel he is completely holding his own with The Rock. That's what has impressed me the most. Cena cut a bad ass promo on The Rock, and Cena shot up in my book. But then he's resorted to crap since then. Miz, however, has hung tall and credible with The Rock, and completely outshined Cena in the character and promo department. Thus, he has earned my respect as a character worker and catapulted himself in my eyes as one of my favorites.

THAT'S the box he ticks. For me. Maybe not for you, but he ticks that box for me. And The Miz and everything he's doing right now is a major reason why I am 100% pumped up for WrestleMania.

You and I see Miz' character differently for sure, but you yourself admit he's average in the ring, to me that's a mid card act, take Santino for example, I find myself entertained by his skits and don't mind him his little tag matches but I'd never want to see him near the main event because he's not good enough in the ring.

 

[Metallo]

I guess I just see something in him that you don't. Yeah...The Miz has a pretty goofy looking face, which is not generally a main event level quality. However, when he debuted he was AWFUL in the ring...and he's gotten much, much better. There is still something lacking...whether it's the 5 moves of doom, a better finisher...something flashy he does in matches to get a pop...basic storytelling...but I definitely think he has improved and DOES have the mic skills and charisma needed to main event. WWE didn't bother even trying to get anyone ready until they were desperate, so they started throwing guys at the wall to see who sticks.

Sure he has something...but something to be a top guy in the main event at wrestlemania? At this point in his career. This is WWE's biggest greatest show of the year...the best of their best. Shouldn't the main event be more than this? More people seemed to get hyped with the Rocks involvment instead of anything the Miz is doing.

Rock vs Cena...thats the Mania money match that I bet people would chose if they had a choice between Rock vs Cena or Rock vs Miz.

If Miz has the skills to be in the Wrestlemania main event tell me what does he do well? How is he as good as all the other guys that came before him? Thats what the main event of Wrestlemania deserves. Cena's gone from battling Shawn Michaels and HHH to...this? Like the Miz or not its not anywhere near as epic...and WWE are the ones who bill Mania as something grand.

Sure the Miz is talented...but we've seen a lot of talented midcarders over the years. The Miz couldn't carry Rick Rudes jockstrap though.

This, times a million.

If I listed my favorite all time matches, barring a couple (cuz HBK vs. Taker 2 is on the list), I'd probably get a bunch of "meh" responses.

My favorite matches are all about the moments that happened. The Rock vs. Triple H, Backlash 2000 - finally winning the title from Triple H, and one upping the McMahon-Helmsley Regime, with Austin beating the absolute hell out of Vince's cronies on his way to the ring.

The Rock v. Triple H, Judgment Day 2000 - Undertaker returning to lay waste to Triple H, but in the process, costing The Rock the title.

And for those same reasons, I know I'm going to love The Miz v. Cena, because the story has been hyped too much, and the involvement of The Rock, something big time and memorable is going to happen in the match that's going to make it memorable.

For me Miz doesn't have the force of personality or presence in the ring our outside it that HHH or The Rock or especially Undertaker had. It'll be interesting to see if the rest of the world thinks Miz is so deserving come next week.

When Undertaker was a year in taking the strap off the biggest star the business had ever seen it didn't look as unbelievable to me as Miz being on Cenas level.

 

[Metallo]

You and I see Miz' character differently for sure, but you yourself admit he's average in the ring, to me that's a mid card act, take Santino for example, I find myself entertained by his skits and don't mind him his little tag matches but I'd never want to see him near the main event because he's not good enough in the ring.

In Hogan and Austins day Miz would be a midcarder. he wouldn't even be challenging those guys. While someone like Cena would. Even now Cena looks like he belongs even if we are just talking about his in ring presence when it comes to the big time matches.

I can't then of any guy that was as bland and generic int he ring as the Miz that lasted long term at the top in WWE. Maybe he will get better one day but we're talking about whether or not he belongs right now.

As an overall worker he doesn't do anything that really shines. Hogan was no mat technician a d I don't really care but the man was a larger than life star in the ring that looked lik a champion every time he stepped in those ropes. And I'm not talking about the fact that he was a big man. Hogan's main event charisma was much deeper than that. Same with Austin. Same with Rock.

At best I can currently buy the Miz as a transitional champion...and even then there have been better transitional champions that looked more credible.

 

[Heretic]

The problem is not The Miz...NO ONE in WWE is Wrestlemania Main Event read.

Orton vs Cena??? We've seen that match so many times it doesnt deserve to headline the Great American Bash.

Edge vs Big Show?

WWE has had the same matches over and over again...not bothering to proect the rosters by keeping key players away from each other...and in the process, not bothered to build anyone up as a true main eventer because they were all stuck in the midcard while the ame few guys kept fighting in main events.

Replace The Miz with ANYONE in WWE and I don't think they would shine any brighter...

 

[Metallo]

Yeah the problem is the Miz. Nobody has been built up well enough this year but people HAVE been built up better...and people ARE better talents than him

The night Punk raised his fist and took over Nexus it looked like a FAR more interesting feud was brewing with Punk/Cena instead of Cena/Miz.

Punk LOOKED like a credible challenger to Cena early on. More so than the Miz has.

Is the Miz a better ALL AROUND TALENT than CM Punk? If the answer is Yes then you're right. If its No then the Miz is part of the problem. Its not just booking but Miz's own natural talents besides his mic work.

Punk can cut a great heel promo without a groan inducing, uninspired, catchphrase like The Miz. And I'll take the GTS or Anaconda Vice over whatever the hell that awful finisher The Miz uses is.

 

[Nemi]

The problem is not The Miz...NO ONE in WWE is Wrestlemania Main Event read.

Orton vs Cena??? We've seen that match so many times it doesnt deserve to headline the Great American Bash.

Edge vs Big Show?

WWE has had the same matches over and over again...not bothering to proect the rosters by keeping key players away from each other...and in the process, not bothered to build anyone up as a true main eventer because they were all stuck in the midcard while the ame few guys kept fighting in main events.

Replace The Miz with ANYONE in WWE and I don't think they would shine any brighter...

Yeah, I'm tired of the same two people having matches over and over again. No one even cares about who wins the Cena vs Miz match, it's all about ''what will The Rock do?''

 

[NickSox]

Note to self.. don't have a different opinion than Metallo or HR. I mean seriously it's like trying to listen to someone talk a person out of being a fan of their favorite sports team. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Metallo]

Yeah, I'm tired of the same two people having matches over and over again. No one even cares about who wins the Cena vs Miz match, it's all about ''what will The Rock do?''

Exactly. Give the people buying Mania a choice if they want to see Rock vs Cena or Rock vs Miz...and I have a pretty good idea what the majority of people would choose. And Rock has only been on Raw live one time before tonight.

Thats a wrestlemania worthy matchup.

 

[Metallo]

Note to self.. don't have a different opinion than Metallo or HR. I mean seriously it's like trying to listen to someone talk a person out of being a fan of their favorite sports team. Different strokes for different folks.

Never said nobody else could have a different opinion...but don't we ALL have a right to express our opinion?

My opinion is I want a better Wrestlemania. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of anything. I can't respond when someone responds to my post? Thats what a discussion board is for.

 

[NickSox]

Never said nobody else could have a different opinion...but don't we ALL have a right to express our opinion?

My opinion is I want a better Wrestlemania. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of anything.

The past three pages have been you guys going back and forth about why the Miz does or doesn't suck like it's gonna change the others position on the matter. Don't really see how telling someone who is excited about something new and different than the usual suspects how much they sucks, gets a better wrestlemania.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Note to self.. don't have a different opinion than Metallo or HR. I mean seriously it's like trying to listen to someone talk a person out of being a fan of their favorite sports team. Different strokes for different folks.

Nell has plenty to say for himself on this subject and is not exactly beyond stirring the pot to get to where we are now, I resisted engaging him on it for quite a while and nothing I posted to him today had anything to do with changing his mind, it was simply an exchange of views, he kept replying, I never forced him to.

 

[Metallo]

The past three pages have been you guys going back and forth about why the Miz does or doesn't suck like it's gonna change the others position on the matter. Don't really see how telling someone who is excited about something new and different than the usual suspects how much they sucks, gets a better wrestlemania.

Like I said I'm not looking to change anyone's opinion. When someone responds to my posts why don't you assume they are trying to change mine? I don't have a right to respond with my opinion? On a discussion board we discuss things don't we?