The Xena/Hercules Appreciation Thread

[p4poetic]

What was drag queen-ish about Alti? lol.

 

[haephestus]

Claire Stansfield has quite a deep/throaty voice, especially as Alti, and they really amped up the eye make-up for the character.

Definitely not what I automatically picture as a drag queen (i.e. giant blonde hair, over-the-top and bright make-up and sequins), but I guess there's a slight resemblance.

 

[Thundarr]

Claire Stansfield has quite a deep/throaty voice, especially as Alti, and they really amped up the eye make-up for the character.

Definitely not what I automatically picture as a drag queen (i.e. giant blonde hair, over-the-top and bright make-up and sequins), but I guess there's a slight resemblance.

Nope, you'll have to see Joxer's twin brother Jace for all that.

 

[haephestus]

Eugh. Jace! For a somewhat ground-breaking show and given their respectful treatment of various races, women in general and a transgender woman in "Here She Comes Miss Amphipolis", their characterisation of gay men was unfortunately stereotypical.

Vidalus in Blind Faith and Jace in Lyre, Lyre were both overly camp and ticked pretty much every single box in the stereotypical gay checklist. And I'm still unsure whether Cortese in Death Mask was meant to be the stereotypically gay villain or whether the actor was off in his own world when bringing to screen Xena's formative enemy.

And Widow Twanky on Hercules was just ... I have no words. At least when Xena was a drag king in Many Happy Returns, it was treated somewhat respectfully.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I need this in my life!

https://tv.yahoo.com/news/artist-drew-disneys-xena-warrior-221000652.html

 

[haephestus]

Yes. That would be awesome.

There were rumours that Xena would live on as a CGI animated TV series once the decision was made to wrap up the live action TV series in season 6, but obviously it never eventuated. The poorly written, made and directed animated Hercules and Xena film probably didn't help anyone sell the idea of an animated TV series.

Of course, there were also rumours of a series of TV movies for Xena as well.

 

[Thundarr]

Eugh. Jace! For a somewhat ground-breaking show and given their respectful treatment of various races, women in general and a transgender woman in "Here She Comes Miss Amphipolis", their characterisation of gay men was unfortunately stereotypical.

Vidalus in Blind Faith and Jace in Lyre, Lyre were both overly camp and ticked pretty much every single box in the stereotypical gay checklist. And I'm still unsure whether Cortese in Death Mask was meant to be the stereotypically gay villain or whether the actor was off in his own world when bringing to screen Xena's formative enemy.

And Widow Twanky on Hercules was just ... I have no words. At least when Xena was a drag king in Many Happy Returns, it was treated somewhat respectfully.

Is that episode from Season 6? Because I don't really recall that one. My DVD collection only goes up to Season 5, and I am in no real hurry to buy Season 6, as the show totally jumped the shark once Xena massacred the entire Greek pantheon in order to make way for Christianity. As far as I'm concerned, the series ended when Xena killed all of the Greek gods.

 

[Thundarr]

I need this in my life!

https://tv.yahoo.com/news/artist-drew-disneys-xena-warrior-221000652.html

That would've been so AWESOME! Especially if the artwork and animation were done by the same people who did the 2002 reboot of He-Man & The Masters Of The Universe, because that show was so freakin' cool and the artwork and animation would've matched Xena perfectly (just watch some of the show's action scenes if you don't believe me).

 

[Thundarr]

Yes. That would be awesome.

There were rumours that Xena would live on as a CGI animated TV series once the decision was made to wrap up the live action TV series in season 6, but obviously it never eventuated. The poorly written, made and directed animated Hercules and Xena film probably didn't help anyone sell the idea of an animated TV series.

Of course, there were also rumours of a series of TV movies for Xena as well.

I didn't think The Fight For Mount Olympus was that bad. I didn't care much for the artwork or animation style. It kind of reminded me of the art and animation style used in the Star Wars: The Clone Wars animated miniseries, or maybe Samurai Jack. Personally, I much prefer the animation style and artwork of the 2002 He-Man & The Masters Of The Universe series.

However, I did rather enjoyed the story and music of the film. I just wish the animation and artwork were better.

 

[p4poetic]

Is that episode from Season 6? Because I don't really recall that one. My DVD collection only goes up to Season 5, and I am in no real hurry to buy Season 6, as the show totally jumped the shark once Xena massacred the entire Greek pantheon in order to make way for Christianity. As far as I'm concerned, the series ended when Xena killed all of the Greek gods.

Many Happy Returns.

Season 6 is better than season 5, although that's not saying much. I hated how much season 5 is mostly a poor retread of great season 3 episodes (giving Lao Ma twin daughters?).

 

[Thundarr]

Many Happy Returns.

Season 6 is better than season 5, although that's not saying much. I hated how much season 5 is mostly a poor retread of great season 3 episodes (giving Lao Ma twin daughters?).

Really? You liked season 6 better? Granted, Season 5 is one of their weakest seasons (as I said before, this is where the show jumped the shark for me), but to me Season 6 was just so much worse.

The series is set in a fictionalized version of Greek mythology. Okay, that sounds kinda redundant as mythology is by its very nature works of fiction. What I mean is they play pretty fast and loose with the original stories of Greek mythology, to the point where the myths shown on Xena bear very little resemblance to their source material. Anyway, Seasons 1 through 4 have Xena and Gabrielle existing in their version of Mythological Greece. Season 5 brings us The Twilight Of The Gods (this being their "Jumping The Shark Moment"). Then most of Season 6 is completely wiping out anything that has anything to do with Greek mythology.

Once the Greek gods were all killed in the Season 5 finale (which I prefer to think of as the series finale, because that's when the final nail is driven into the show's coffin), they spent the rest of the series wiping out all the Greek myths. I'm guessing because if they're not in the Christian Holy Bible, they're no longer allowed to exist on the show. The Bible doesn't say anything about the existence of Amazons? Let's make an episode about the genocide of the Amazon Nation! The Bible doesn't say anything about the existence of centaurs? Let's make an episode about the genocide of the entire centaur race! Any episodes that weren't eliminating the mythologies that were THE BASIS OF THE WHOLE DAMN SHOW, were cramming Christianity down our throats.

There were a few decent episodes in Season 6, but without the Greek Gods and all the monsters and mythologies that were uniquely Greek, the entire series just fell apart. So I say Season 5, while the worst of the first five seasons, is significantly better than Season 6.

 

[haephestus]

Re: Drag King Xena

Yes, as noted, it was a season 6 episode (Many Happy Returns). Quite a good, light episode given that it was put together very quickly when they couldn't secure a large enough budget to do the planned musical episode.

Re: Season 5 vs. Season 6

Personally, I MUCH prefer season 6.

There aren't too many episodes in season 5 which I can enjoy. Whereas, in season 6 there are quite a few that I enjoy and the "Gabrielle Trilogy" was long overdue.

While I didn't like it at the time, I kind of like that the season long arc or "theme" of season 6 was the destruction of the mythological. After 35+ years of adventuring together, Xena and Gabrielle's world was changing and more and more they seemed out of place. I find that idea of them failing to keep up with the developments throughout the world to be quite interesting. Xena and Gabrielle were "traditional" heroes and over time, they came to realise that it was becoming more and more difficult for them to operate in a world that was so morally grey (as evidenced by some of their questionable decisions in season 6 as they struggled with enemies and situations where the difference between right and wrong wasn't as clear as black and white).

I think it's actually a pretty strong thematic conclusion for the series and could even be read as a metaphor for the very type of show that Xena was since similarly "camp" shows (e.g. The Middleman, Lost Girl, etc) are few and far between these days with the focus instead on dark, gritty drama (e.g. Battlestar Galatic, Game of Thrones, etc).

Also, the so-called God of Love was effectively demolished or at the very least belittled in season 6 and shown to be a manipulative fraud. Personally, while it was never stated openly, my fan-theory is that the GOL manipulated Eve, Callisto, Xena and Gabrielle to bring about the death of the Greek gods so that the GOL could assume power.

Once Xena finalised realised that she'd been played for a fool in season 6, particularly after the event of Haunting of Amphipolis/Heart of Darkness and especially The God You Know, Xena took the appropriate steps to right the wrongs of her past by openly challenging the GOL, sacrificing the "gift" given to her by the GOL and reinstating the Greek gods on Olympus (or at the very least, Ares and Aphrodite).

Re: Xena and Hercules Animated Film

I didn't think the story was too bad, although side-lining Gabrielle as a giant eagle for most of the film was annoying. Iolaus got to play his part as Hercules' sidekick, Gabrielle should have been provided with the same opportunity.

I like that the art was kind of based on some of the classical Greek art shapes and styles, but that's about as far as I can admire or even tolerate the animation. It reeked of being made as cheaply as possible and wasn't much above the quality of The Flinstones.

It's a shame that they didn't put more effort into it as it could have spawned an ongoing series of animated films set within the "classic" period of both Hercules and Xena (i.e. that season 3 (Xena)/season 4 (Hercules) timeframe).

 

[Thundarr]

While the episodes where they were wiping out all that was mythological in Season 6 were well done episodes, I didn't like the FACT that they were wiping out all things mythological. So what makes the final season the best of the series for you, for me it ruined my enjoyment of the series. I guess it's just a matter of differing opinions from different points of view. To me, eliminating everything Greek in Season 6 was the absolute wrong way to go. Had they not done the whole "Twilight Of The Gods" angle in Season 5, or killed Xena off in the series finale, the series could have been left open to many more seasons. Or at the very least, they could have done a series of made for TV or direct to video movies after the series ended. Kind of like the Incredible Hulk movies with Bill Bixby and Lou Ferrigno.

Speaking of the Olypian Gods, I've read that there is a small cult of Olympian worshipers who are trying to get the Greek Pantheon legally recognized as an official religion. Personally, I hope they succeed. Perhaps they should try starting a campaign in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and The UK, to get people to write "The Olympian Gods" on their census forms under "Religion". In the above mentioned countries, if enough people write a religion down on their census forms as being their religion of choice, even if this religion is considered "fictional" or "dead", then that becomes an officially recognized religion in those countries. I believe The Jedi Order has become an officially recognized religion in Australia for that very reason (and The UK, Canada, and New Zealand all share the same law).

 

[haephestus]

They *were*going to make a series of TV movies following season 6, but for whatever reason whether it was Lucy Lawless' reluctance to sign another contract, NBC Universal (or whoever it was at the time) refusing to provide a sufficient budget and promotional plan or Ares up to his usual dastardly tricks, it didn't happen.

The very early rumours about a "Japan" set episode were for one of these TV movies. Whether or not we received the TV movies, it sounds (from the VERY vague rumours) that Xena was always going to die. And, to be fair, Rob Tapert always said that the series would end with Xena finding her redemption. And it had to be Xena believing she had made a sufficient sacrifice to be redeemed as Xena was not in the habit of accepting forgiveness from anyone else for her past crimes. Personally, Xena dying is how I would have chosen to end the series, BUT in extremely different circumstances and IF I had to force in a reason for Xena staying dead, it wouldn't be so that a bunch of people too stupid to run from a fire and jump in the ocean wanted vengeance!

 

[Thundarr]

They *were*going to make a series of TV movies following season 6, but for whatever reason whether it was Lucy Lawless' reluctance to sign another contract, NBC Universal (or whoever it was at the time) refusing to provide a sufficient budget and promotional plan or Ares up to his usual dastardly tricks, it didn't happen.

The very early rumours about a "Japan" set episode were for one of these TV movies. Whether or not we received the TV movies, it sounds (from the VERY vague rumours) that Xena was always going to die. And, to be fair, Rob Tapert always said that the series would end with Xena finding her redemption. And it had to be Xena believing she had made a sufficient sacrifice to be redeemed as Xena was not in the habit of accepting forgiveness from anyone else for her past crimes. Personally, Xena dying is how I would have chosen to end the series, BUT in extremely different circumstances and IF I had to force in a reason for Xena staying dead, it wouldn't be so that a bunch of people too stupid to run from a fire and jump in the ocean wanted vengeance!

Well they kinda shot themselves in the foot there. They wrote the final episode so that Xena HAD to stay dead in order for the demon to stay dead, because their souls were linked somehow. So in order to do the TV movies they would have to bring Xena back to life, which would of course bring the demon back to life, making her sacrifice meaningless.

I don't think Lucy Lawless was the problem with future Xena projects. She's stated in interviews that she would love to reprise the character if given the chance. I think part of the problem is the rights to the show has changed hands several times and no one's quite sure who currently holds said rights. Another problem was the untimely death of Kevin Smith, which occurred only about a year or so after the show wrapped it's final season. Which is a double shame because he and Lucy had great chemistry on screen.

 

[haephestus]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. IF they had signed up for the TV movies, then season 6 would have had a completely different finale. The "Japan" set story (which became "Friend in Need") was originally planned as being for one of those TV movies (presumably the last one).

So, even if we had received the quasi-season 7 in the form of 3 or 4 TV movies, it sounds like Rob Tapert's plan was ALWAYS for Xena to die in Japan, because he wanted her to die to achieve redemption and because he's long loved the Hong Kong style action movies which were part of his original inspiration for the character of Xena.

And, at the time, Lucy Lawless was part of the problem. The Flawless Lawless was over "Xena" and wanted it to be conclusively finalised. At the time, Lucy Lawless was ... "happy" with Xena dying because it provided a final "end" to the character. Of course, over time and with the benefit of hindsight, Lucy Lawless has subsequently indicated an interest in reprising the character. However, after filming for 12+ hours a day, 5/6 days a week for six years, she and Renee O'Connor were both more than happy to move on and to never, ever play those characters again.

And yes, the licence rights remain a major issue. The changes in NBC Universal apparently resulted in a bizarre legal arrangement when it comes to who owns what about the characters. I think Rob Tapert somehow owns the rights (or part of the rights) to make Xena musical stage productions, but the other rights seem to be split between a bunch of people who don't play well together and some of them have no interest in reviving the brand at all.

 

[Thundarr]

Ah, I see what you meant. I didn't really mind Xena being killed off in the end. Technically, it was a very strong and emotionally charged episode. It's all the stuff that led up to the finale that really bothered me about Season 6.

If they were to reboot the series as an animated series, or perhaps a series of animated made for TV movies, they would have to retcon the story so that Season 6 and much of Season 5 never happened (i.e.: Xena never became pregnant and gave birth to Eve). I believe that that was what Darkhorse Comics did with their Xena comic series.

Incidentally, I'm not 100% sure, but I think Darkhorse still has the comic book rights to the characters.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I was not a fan of the series ending in China/Japan (cant remember which one), it just didn't feel true to the series. It should've ended in Greece and they should've kept the gods around longer.

A reboot would have the advantage of knowing what to do and what not to do.

I was fine with Xena getting knocked up and then getting frozen for like 25 years but they just went about majority of the stuff so wrong. I hated that Eve became such a pacifist when she was "redeemed" and it was like Livia was a whole different personality.

 

[Thundarr]

I think they should have kept the gods around period. Like I said before, I think the show jumped the shark the moment they decided to eliminate the Olympian gods. While Season 6 did have some well written episodes, it just didn't feel like the same show anymore.

I didn't mind them writing Lucy's pregnancy into the show. I mean, what else were they gonna do? Take a year off so she could give birth and get back into shape? I just didn't like the "Twilight Of The Gods" angle they came up with. They could've gone so many other ways that would have been much better. I think I mentioned them before, but my ideas for working her pregnancy into the storyline:

1) Xena & Gabrielle team up with Hercules & Iolaus in order to stop Dahak from manifesting himself in this plane of existence. They plan on letting him enter the world, then killing him with the Hind's Blood Dagger/The Dagger Of Helios/The Chakram Of Light/Rib Bone Of Kronos/Make Up God Killing Weapon Here. Odds are one or both of them will not survive this confrontation, so the night before the big showdown Xena & Hercules make love. They win the day, then low & behold a couple months later Xena realizes she's pregnant with Hercules' baby.

2) Xena has to stop an old ally of hers, Attila The Hun. Attila wields an enchanted sword which drives it's wielder mad with bloodlust. During their fight, Xena's sword is ruined, the blade cut in two while parrying Attila's attack. Thus she claims his sword for her own, and slowly reverts back to the bloodthirsty tyrant she once was. During this time she rekindles her relationship with Ares. The spend the night together. By the time Gabrielle figures out how to break the curse of the sword, Xena is now carrying Ares' bastard love child.

3) Zeus comes to Xena in the guise of one of her past loves (Hercules, Marcus, Borias, etc). They share a night of passion, leaving Xena in a family way with Zeus's half mortal child. This of course angers Hera to no end, which makes her a frequent antagonist in the 5th and 6th season.

I would have preferred any one of these scenarios over "The Twilight Of The Gods".

 

[haephestus]

I didn't mind the idea of addressing the Twilight of the Greek Gods. BUT, I think it was far better suited for Hercules, especially since it was always planned to form the basis of Hercules' sixth season and then when Hercules was cut short, TPTB decided to do the same story on Xena. I don't think it worked as strongly on Xena since, with the exception of Ares and Aphrodite (the Greek gods of War and Love), Xena hadn't had too much to do with the Greek gods.

Hercules was the demi-god son of Zeus. If anyone was going to play a large role in the Twilight of the Greek Gods, then it should have been Hercules. And a one-off appearance in the season 5 episode "God Fearing Child" wasn't enough.

That typed, at the end of the day, the Twilight of the Gods was a self-fulfilling prophecy. If Zeus and Athena had just left Xena alone, then they wouldn't have died and they probably would still be around. It was only their own arrogance and fear of "mortality" which lead to their deaths. Well, that and their own stupidity since their inability to kill two women and a baby was hilarious!

I'm not sure what I would have done differently if TPTB insisted on keeping the Twilight of the Gods angle. I don't think it was necessary as there was enough juicy material in season 5 with Xena's pregnancy and Gabrielle fully embracing becoming a warrior. One of the writers (George Strayton) had an alternate proposal for season 5 which I quite liked.

I guess if I'd been in charge, I would have kept the general idea, but I would have revealed towards the end that the pregnancy and the prophecy of the Twilight was all manufactured by the God of Love who had manipulated Xena, Callisto, Gabrielle and the Greek gods. Xena would have figured it out and would have fought against the GOL with the assistance of selected Olympians in the final battle. The GOL would have been defeated, but the Olympians would have realised that their time as the reigning deities was perhaps limited and may have decided to become better "people" as a result.

I know it was done on Angel, but I probably would have had Ares kidnap Eve and take her to another dimension where time moves more quickly to train her as a warrior for the Olympians (believing that Xena had aligned with the GOL and would be his/her champion). They could still have the Xena vs. Eve conflict, but it would be resolved far more quickly and adult Eve wouldn't have to deal with a bunch of guilt become she killed thousands of innocents. Heck, Ares could have even turned over a new leaf of sorts of Eve may have gone off to become his "Warrior Queen" who tried to bring about peace (through warfare). That would have left it open for future conflicts between Xena and Eve (or for Eve to assume Xena's place as a champion for the greater good).

As for the pregnancy, I'm more than happy with Callisto being the father. To me, it made perfect sense. Xena stole Callisto's parents from her. Callisto stole Xena's child from her. With the birth of Eve, a spiritually cleansed Callisto got the parent she wanted and Xena got another chance at parenthood. I couldn't think of a better way to explain the pregnancy. And I was happy for it to be written into the show.

I wasn't happy about the fact that they had Gabrielle embrace her inner warrior (and killer) to "defend" Xena because she was supposedly weakened by being pregnant, yet pregnant Xena seemed to have more super-powers than regular Xena! They didn't need to make her helpless, but seeing a heavily pregnant Xena jumping, flipping and battling armies was incredibly implausible, even for that show. Heck, when Xena was pregnant with Solan, she was still involved in battles, but in a semi-realistic manner. And if Xena had been weakened, then Gabrielle stepping up to become her personal bodyguard would have made a lot more sense. As it was, Xena didn't seem to need ANY help.

I agree that the finale should have been set in Greece. But, Rob Tapert's love for Asian action/ghost story films prevailed. To be fair, his love for such ideas had previously resulted in The Debt, which was awesome!

And I also agree that Eve's personality really needed some work. I didn't mind her in Coming Home where she did use her abilities to at least help the Amazons in the opening battle. But, once she became a mindless preacher, then I was happy to see her written-off. The fact that she still went around preaching the way of the GOL after Archangel Michael arranged for her to be killed as a martyr to the cause was pretty embarrassing for the character.

 

[p4poetic]

They *were*going to make a series of TV movies following season 6, but for whatever reason whether it was Lucy Lawless' reluctance to sign another contract, NBC Universal (or whoever it was at the time) refusing to provide a sufficient budget and promotional plan or Ares up to his usual dastardly tricks, it didn't happen.

The very early rumours about a "Japan" set episode were for one of these TV movies. Whether or not we received the TV movies, it sounds (from the VERY vague rumours) that Xena was always going to die. And, to be fair, Rob Tapert always said that the series would end with Xena finding her redemption. And it had to be Xena believing she had made a sufficient sacrifice to be redeemed as Xena was not in the habit of accepting forgiveness from anyone else for her past crimes. Personally, Xena dying is how I would have chosen to end the series, BUT in extremely different circumstances and IF I had to force in a reason for Xena staying dead, it wouldn't be so that a bunch of people too stupid to run from a fire and jump in the ocean wanted vengeance!

Precisely.

 

[C. Lee]

My wife and I like both the series. Both were released on DVD in their entirety years ago, but we couldn't afford them then. They are being slowly re-released in different packaging now (season 5 for both of them was the most recent) and we are buying them and watching when we can.

We like both Kevin and Lucy in their post series work (but haven't seen any of SPARTACUS yet)....and hadn't heard anything about the Kevin being bitter towards Lucy stuff.

 

[p4poetic]

My wife and I like both the series. Both were released on DVD in their entirety years ago, but we couldn't afford them then. They are being slowly re-released in different packaging now (season 5 for both of them was the most recent) and we are buying them and watching when we can.

We like both Kevin and Lucy in their post series work (but haven't seen any of SPARTACUS yet)....and hadn't heard anything about the Kevin being bitter towards Lucy stuff.

A google search will suffice, he has a rant about every few years since around 2005 lol.

 

[C. Lee]

A google search will suffice, he has a rant about every few years since around 2005 lol.

Didn't say I was desperate to read about it...just said I hadn't heard about it.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I decided to do a Xena rewatch since its been forever and still enjoying it. I never bought Hercules as I watched it off and on, was planning on watching it on streaming but....both have disappeared for some odd reason so dvds it is.