This show in the larger MCU...

Discussion in 'The Defenders' started by ZIPBAGS, Aug 22, 2017.

  1. SPO2 Dalisay

    SPO2 Dalisay Vigilante

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2017
    Messages:
    895
    Likes Received:
    4
    We are all speculating, giving theories, ideals filing in the blanks were a movie or TV show can't because there is no time.

    Now you think that Stark would just snap up everybody who was strong. In that case why didn't he get Secretary Ross to get the 82nd Airborne to help?

    My theory, he wasn't going to fight. And when they did fight as the Scarlet Witch said they were pulling their punches
     
    #176
  2. XtremelyBaneful

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    13,081
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, we're not all doing it. I've already drawn the conclusion that there is zero logic in Stark approaching one superhero in New York and ignoring the rest.

    I don't know, and I don't care, and your guess is as good as mine, but my only guess is that this is a comic book movie so it's focusing on comic book characters

    That's all you got man, is a fan theory
     
    #177
  3. SPO2 Dalisay

    SPO2 Dalisay Vigilante

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2017
    Messages:
    895
    Likes Received:
    4
    And folks disagree with your theory, deal with it.
     
    #178
  4. fan4stic

    fan4stic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2017
    Messages:
    615
    Likes Received:
    4
    Yeah and an acrobat wouldn't serve his situation at all. Tony isn't shown to have the authority to Cage out of prison, even if Cage would agree and even if he's the kind of hero Tony wanted. Jessica is just as needless. None of this serves Tony's goal. Even Luke wouldn't really serve what Tony wanted to accomplish. Call it forced if you want, but Tony went to Peter for his strength in stopping a car at 3,000 pounds 40 miles an hour and his webbing. Maybe he did go to them first and they rejected him, but it doesn't matter and seeing those scenes doesn't service the movie or what the movie wants to do.
     
    #179
  5. XtremelyBaneful

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    13,081
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don’t have a theory, so there’s nothing for me to deal with. Y’all are the ones with the theories. As far as folks disagreeing with me, I couldn’t care less
    Like I said earlier, Black Widow is an “acrobat” and served Tony’s situation, so Daredevil could too. Tony could’ve also easily bailed Luke out of prison if he wanted to. I’m not calling it forced, I’m calling it a plot hole. The rest of your post is just more of “maybe this, maybe that” - fan explanation and speculation
     
    #180
  6. fan4stic

    fan4stic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2017
    Messages:
    615
    Likes Received:
    4
    BW is already an established part of his group and Matt was retired. Maybe he could, but why would he when getting someone out of prison isn't in the interest of the accords and would take up an amount of time from what Ross gave him and how would showing him trying only to be rejected by Luke serve the movie? It's not maybe, Tony highlights Peter's webbing and strength in his points of interest in Peter. It's not a plot hole, because none of these things matter to the movie and all of these characters would reject Tony if asked (Matt's retired, Luke's a hometown hero, Jessica has no interest in government work), which would make those scenes pointless.
     
    #181
  7. XtremelyBaneful

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    13,081
    Likes Received:
    0
    Really going all over the places with these excuses. First it's the fact that Matt is just an acrobat, now it's the fact that Tony doesn't know him and that he's retired...as if this explains why Tony wouldn't even try to recruit.
    ...because Luke has brute strength and would be a huge asset to his team
    It is maybe because this is all an explanation coming from you, a fan, and not from a scene in the movie with Stark saying "Hm there is that bulletproof man in jail who would be a tough cookie to beat, but...I don't wanna waste my time with him."
    It is a plot hole. There are several superheroes in New York and there is no logic whatsoever narratively for Tony to not even attempt to talk to them, and no amount of fan explanation is going to make sense out of it. That's all you guys are doing is making up your own excuses to justify it when really, as I've said perhaps 10 times now - the only reason there's no passive mention or cameo of the Netflix characters in the MCU films is because of Hollywood politics
     
    #182
  8. Spider-Fan

    Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014 Champion

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2003
    Messages:
    49,134
    Likes Received:
    133
    There also is no scene in the show explaining why Tony didn't recruit them or even a scene that shows he knows who they are. So your argument is based on speculation as well (since it is not directly mentioned in the narrative). You're speculating that there is no reason Tony should not have recruited them, and we're speculating on reasons why he may not have. All any of us are doing is speculating. You cannot have a debate based on speculation from yourself and then try to use that against other people. That is called hypocrisy.
     
    #183
  9. fan4stic

    fan4stic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2017
    Messages:
    615
    Likes Received:
    4
    These aren't excuses. These are pieces of the universe. BW is already there. Tony didn't recruit her. And him being retired or at least not active is evident by him not showing up for months and that's not a readily available superhero. What you're calling a plot hole is just a piece of info you don't have that the movie doesn't need because it doesn't serve the movie in any way. We know why the real reason they wouldn't be mentioned, but the movies don't need to mention them even if it could. The universe has built in reasons why irregardless though. Tony is on a limited timeframe. None of them are active at that moment, but Peter was. Based on everything, it makes sense for Tony to go for the active hero that wouldn't kill more time than he has.

    Yeah, in Tony's situation at the moment, he wouldn't want to waste his time, because he doesn't have much. He was given a limit by Ross.
     
    #184
  10. XtremelyBaneful

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    13,081
    Likes Received:
    0
    wait, are you talking about Spiderman? Or just everybody else on Tony's team? There wouldn't really need to be one since those characters have been introduced for a while.

    Spider-Fan I thought you said you were done talking to me about this ;) even if I am being a hypocrite, I ain't throwing any speculation around how or why or what ifs in regards to the Netflix characters being no shows on the big screen, I've said countless times that it's just politics
     
    #185
  11. Spider-Fan

    Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014 Champion

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2003
    Messages:
    49,134
    Likes Received:
    133
    I am done making points in this argument itself. Pointing out that you're being a hypocrite is different. Ignoring the politics of why people can't appear in anything, there is no in universe explanation for anything, so any explanation either on why it doesn't make sense or why maybe Tony would have just ignored them for this is entirely speculative. You cannot cry foul when you yourself are speculating on reasons Tony should/would have called them.
     
    #186
  12. XtremelyBaneful

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    13,081
    Likes Received:
    0
    So what excuse is there in Tony not even trying to recruit a vigilante who will be at least as effective as Black Widow, regardless of the fact that he was retired?
    The plot hole that I've been discussing in this thread is actually far beyond Civil War, it's for the MCU as a whole; this thread has just devolved into a discussion about that particular movie. It serves the MCU immensely if New York is going to be a key setting in the next Avengers movie and the Defenders do nothing. Anyways, Stark was on a limited timeframe yet he was already in New York so timing is not something I agree with either.

    Again, it's not like Tony himself said "I don't have time to talk to the other superheroes in New York" - it's you saying it
     
    #187
  13. XtremelyBaneful

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    13,081
    Likes Received:
    0
    But you're still here arguing...
    Call me a hypocrite all you want but that isn't speculation...I thought it was said in this thread already that Feige doesn't care about Netflix so that's one and done the reason why this hasn't happened. I remember back before the Sony/Disney deal, people tried making similar excuses as to why Peter Parker doesn't need to be in the MCU, saying things like "he's a solo hero so he wouldn't join up with the Avengers anyway" lo and behold because the politics worked out, he's a full fledged MCU character now
     
    #188
  14. Spider-Fan

    Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014 Champion

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2003
    Messages:
    49,134
    Likes Received:
    133
    Pointing out Feige and co have a strained relationship with Marvel TV is not where the speculation comes from. I am not calling you a hypocrite for that reason. What IS speculation is trying to argue why Tony should have called them. Calling that a plot hole because he didn't is an entirely speculative argument. That is where you're being a hypocrite.
     
    #189
  15. XtremelyBaneful

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    13,081
    Likes Received:
    0
    Tony should have called them because he was in New York, and completely ignoring the rest of the superheroes makes no narrative sense whatsoever. Insult me all you want, you ain't changing my mind man
     
    #190
  16. Spider-Fan

    Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014 Champion

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2003
    Messages:
    49,134
    Likes Received:
    133
    I'm not insulting you. I am pointing out your remark against people who disagree with you because they're speculating on something not explained in the movie is hypocritical because you're doing the same thing. You're allowed to think it is a plot hole, but if you're going to engage in a speculative debate, don't try and use that as an argument in your favor when you're doing the same thing. It's not an insult. It's a description of your current tactic.
     
    #191
  17. XtremelyBaneful

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    13,081
    Likes Received:
    0
    Calling someone a hypocrite is one of the worst insults you could call them. I'm not trying to come up with reasons as to why Tony didn't reach out to the Netflix heroes. Therefore, I ain't speculating. My bottom line is that such a scenario hasn't happened because the writers didn't make it so. If Sony didn't shake the mouse's hand, Spider-Man wouldn't be part of the conversation either
     
    #192
  18. Infinity9999x

    Infinity9999x Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    11,523
    Likes Received:
    51
    I said again because I mentioned two posts ago how innacurate and subject to change supolemental materials are. The only thing that's Canon are the shoes themselves. Period.

    And dude, it doesn't matter if Luke appears to handle some grunts easier than Cap, he has never done anything close to pulling a helicopter down.

    Let's say this again, He. Has. Never. Done. Anything. Like. That. There is no arguing this point. Cap, as of now, has clearly demonstrated the most impressive feat of strength. Luke hasn't. As such, we have no evidence to show that Luke is above Cap as of now.

    It's simple man, if you're in a competition to see who lifts the heaviest thing, the dude who lifts the heaviest thing wins. You're argument is essentially saying "but in earlier rounds the other guy lifted a bit more!" Doesn't matter. What matters is who lifts the most at the end. Cap had lifted the heaviest thing so far. Luke has not. Ignoring that at this point is simply ignoring the reality of the movies and the Luke Cage show.

    Once again, I'm not saying that Lukr won't eventually be shown to be as strong or stronger, but so far, he's done nothing to compare to Cap in Civil War.
     
    #193
  19. XtremelyBaneful

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    13,081
    Likes Received:
    0
    Don't get me wrong, I understand your point. What you're saying basically if we're being non-biased, is that Luke hasn't had the exposition of doing something as extraordinary as what Cap did with the helicopter in Civil War.

    I get that, however in the same movie we see Cap also kicking opponents to neutralize them; Luke spends way less effort to do the same. To me that means that Luke potentially can do much more than what Cap's done, we just haven't seen it yet because of budgetary reasons
     
    #194
  20. Infinity9999x

    Infinity9999x Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    11,523
    Likes Received:
    51
    That I can get behind. And I think that's the most probable reason as well. And the fact that writers like to power up or down characters to serve frantic purposes. As cool as it was to see Cap pull a helicopter down, if he can pull 3000lbs, he should be able to more easily incapacitate people as well. But then we wouldn't have those knifty action scenes.

    They do the same thing with Elecktra, if she can go hand to hand with Luke and Jessica, one hit should take Matt out of a fight. But that would make for a boring action sequence.
     
    #195
  21. Spider-Fan

    Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014 Champion

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2003
    Messages:
    49,134
    Likes Received:
    133
    No it's not. Everyone is guilty of hypocrisy at some point or another, and pointing that out is not wrong. But it is speculative to assume Tony would have wanted their help in the first place. This is what I think you're having a hard time understanding.
     
    #196
  22. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    54,453
    Likes Received:
    75
    Nothing that happens in Marvel TV is relevant to the films. It's pretty clear at this point. I hoped there could always be more, but I've moved on. Everyone else should too.
     
    #197
  23. fan4stic

    fan4stic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2017
    Messages:
    615
    Likes Received:
    4
    BW is already apart of his group and is apart of the avengers already. She's there because she's apart of te avengers. Tony isn't recruiting here. She's already apart of it.

    NY wasn't a key setting. Titan and Wakanda were key settings along with thanos' ship and the dwarf star. NY is a footnote in the movie. It would've been nice to see more characters there, but it doesn't add anything to do it even if they were allowed to. Timing is still an issue with retired, anti-social and imprisoned people. If someone wants nothing to do with superheroism, they'll be harder to convince and that's more time. Even being in prison takes a little more legal time to wrangle, especially with Tony plnning to take the person out of the country. Then there's the things that Tony is interested in in spider-man's abilities.

    You don't need it. If you know enough to know these characters, you'll know their situations are out of sorts at the moment, in connection with Tony's time limit. If you don't, it won't matter.
     
    #198
  24. XtremelyBaneful

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    13,081
    Likes Received:
    0
    Alright, I'm glad we could come to an understanding then. So...even if we don't want the same things, perhaps we still see eye to eye on these particular in-universe situations
    I understand what you're saying, you're being reasonable. I'm not saying that pointing it out is wrong nor am I saying that you don't have merit in calling me that, but I was brought up to believe it's a pretty bad insult.
    ...no one said anything about recruiting BW. But she's on Tony's team, and Daredevil is as at least as effective as her so if he has her on his team it doesn't make sense for him to not want him too.

    Technically the whole galaxy was a key setting since half the population was wiped out. That would mean a good portion of NY's population was wiped out too. But regardless of that, NY might become a primary setting in Av4 and if the Netflix characters do nothing, then it's a plot hole.

    I don't need what? What the hell are you talking about?
     
    #199
  25. Flash525

    Flash525 The Scarlet Messenger

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2018
    Messages:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    21
    Anyone else find it interesting that people aren't turning to dust on these Netflix shows?
     
    #200

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"