The Last Jedi TLJ vs RO

[DarthSkywalker]

RotJ has it's problems and some are quite significant. The Ewoks being by far the largest. That doesn't prevent it from being much better than the new films for me though.

With TLJ the question is whether to put it third or fourth from the bottom.

The Ewoks are a larger problem them not having any storyline for Leia and Han?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Return of the Jedi shines brighter than any of the newer movies when it shines brightest. Those moments trump any of the other ones, so I enjoy the movie more than I do the newer ones.

And here is my general problem with this argument. It basically sets up the idea that nothing the newer films do can be better. Because while I agree that RotJ has arguably the single best storyline in Luke's, it also has problems people would beat any film since with. It is a film that honestly has no idea what to do with Han and Leia. It parks everyone on a moon to do the Death Start II plotline, that is so inconsequential, none of the main characters are involved in the space battle.

Even in the Star Wars/The Force Awakens situation. Even if I agree they are the same thing, TFA should win. It is a more compelling version of the same story simply down to there being actual character work. So much of what makes Star Wars and Return of the Jedi is the characters that Empire put in all our heads. And I wouldn't change that for anything. But this is very retrospective.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm sure there are a bunch of others with the same 4 as their favourites. Ignoring the prequels they are the Episode films aside from RotJ and many seem to have some issues with that one. I have issues with the Ewoks taking out the Stormtroopers (don’t mind them being in otherwise) as it makes the threat seem like something your local cops could take care of. But otherwise I love the film. The whole of the original trilogy has an X-Factor that for me is missing in every film since even though I would theoretically prefer the material a modern SW film could cover with the foundations for world building toward a much larger universe already set in place.

What did you mean by easy to solve btw re Canto Bight and the characterization of Poe? I enjoy all the new films – they are all mostly 8s out of 10 overall for me but I see them as good films rather than something to get crazy about. And something about the way TLJ leaves things deflates some of my overall excitement for Star Wars unfortunately.

They should have never went to Canto Bight. Rose in an engineer. She should have been able to handle the problem on the Supremacy. Instead she sort of just tags along for no reason other then she does.

Poe is very generic in comparison to his TFA characterization imo. He is suddenly a hot shot and hot head. Oscar's charisma still makes it work, but I miss Poe from TFA. The guy who probably wouldn't have been questioning every move made by his superiors. The unusually mature best pilot in the Resistance. They made him more Maverick in TLJ.

 

[Spider-Fan]

And here is my general problem with this argument. It basically sets up the idea that nothing the newer films do can be better. Because while I agree that RotJ has arguably the single best storyline in Luke's, it also has problems people would beat any film since with. It is a film that honestly has no idea what to do with Han and Leia. It parks everyone on a moon to do the Death Start II plotline, that is so inconsequential, none of the main characters are involved in the space battle.

Even in the Star Wars/The Force Awakens situation. Even if I agree they are the same thing, TFA should win. It is a more compelling version of the same story simply down to there being actual character work. So much of what makes Star Wars and Return of the Jedi is the characters that Empire put in all our heads. And I wouldn't change that for anything. But this is very retrospective.

I think this is just a matter of taste. Yeah, we can argue ROTJ's problems, but at the end of the day, which film do I feel more compelled to rewatch? Which one leaves a bigger emotional impact on me? The answer to both of these for me is ROTJ. Same goes for ANH vs TFA. I just inherently enjoy the movies more and think they're better. But again, it's a matter of taste we have going here.

 

[Iceman]

They should have never went to Canto Bight. Rose in an engineer. She should have been able to handle the problem on the Supremacy. Instead she sort of just tags along for no reason other then she does.

Poe is very generic in comparison to his TFA characterization imo. He is suddenly a hot shot and hot head. Oscar's charisma still makes it work, but I miss Poe from TFA. The guy who probably wouldn't have been questioning every move made by his superiors. The unusually mature best pilot in the Resistance. They made him more Maverick in TLJ.

Oh yes, I thought that whole scene was a big waste of time. My main issue apart from the every end. Also agreed on Poe. People keep wasting Oscar Isaac! He was great in the very limited amount of screen-time he had in TFA. And I didn't like what they gave him to do in this one. What did you mean by these issues being easy to solve?

 

[Mjölnir]

The Ewoks are a larger problem them not having any storyline for Leia and Han?

Definitely. The Ewoks causes the conflict down on Endor to not make much sense and brings the incompetence of the Empire to a whole new level. That as much wider effects in the universe than the storyline of Han and Leia (and they don't lack a storyline, it's just that it's not very special, just like the one for Rey in TLJ).

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I think this is just a matter of taste. Yeah, we can argue ROTJ's problems, but at the end of the day, which film do I feel more compelled to rewatch? Which one leaves a bigger emotional impact on me? The answer to both of these for me is ROTJ.

Is that taste, or is that nostalgia? Because I grew up with the OT to. I get it. I know why when Lucas messed with arguably my favorite scene in the saga, why it hurt so much.

But how much of this is taste, and how much of this is being a fan? Which is fine. But then I think it gets dicey when the arguments start getting made about why the Disney films, which don't have these "advantages", get discussed.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Oh yes, I thought that whole scene was a big waste of time. My main issue apart from the every end. Also agreed on Poe. People keep wasting Oscar Isaac! He was great in the very limited amount of screen-time he had in TFA. And I didn't like what they gave him to do in this one. What did you mean by these issues being easy to solve?

I like the idea of the ending, but the execution is a problem imo.

I simply mean they could have streamlined Canto Bight (which I enjoy but is not necessary) and just made Poe more Poe. I think this whole problem came up because Rian was looking for something to do with Poe and Finn, and just never figured it out. They also seemed to rely on making the First Order dumb. Should have had the same escape plan, with Holdo always planning on doing what she did imo. Have an actual battle on Crait. I have some ideas of what they could have done while sticking to the same basic story, but that is just a me thing.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Is that taste, or is that nostalgia? Because I grew up with the OT to. I get it. I know why when Lucas messed with arguably my favorite scene in the saga, why it hurt so much.

But how much of this is taste, and how much of this is being a fan? Which is fine. But then I think it gets dicey when the arguments start getting made about why the Disney films, which don't have these "advantages", get discussed.

The problem I have with you're argument is you're assuming your end of the conversation is more correct than mine when you call it nostalgia, and I find that argument sort of condescending. Taste is taste. I think the character work in ANH is better and has more merit. You think TFA had it better. Disagreeing is fine, but confining my view to it being due to nostalgia and not purely on the work alone is a backhanded way of saying "I am right, you're wrong but at least you admit it." I cannot agree with that sentiment. Some people watching movies value technical things like camera work more, others enjoy other elements more. For me, story and script is normally what gets me. I appreciate all elements of film, but the story sells a movie to me. I just enjoy the story in ROTJ more and think the arcs have better payoff. When the story ends, I just feel like it accomplished more and it sent me on more of a journey I could get swept away in. Same with ANH. Yes, ANH may be dated compared to TFA, but I feel it has a better story. Disagreeing is fine, but this isn't a matter of nostalgia to me. For me, the scripts of TFA and even TLJ (which I love) had more issues.

I will be the first to say for me, if TLJ didn't have the Canto Bight storyline and its flaws, I would maybe put it somewhere in the top 3. But, Canto Bight is there sadly, so it couldn't get that high.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Definitely. The Ewoks causes the conflict down on Endor to not make much sense and brings the incompetence of the Empire to a whole new level. That as much wider effects in the universe than the storyline of Han and Leia (and they don't lack a storyline, it's just that it's not very special, just like the one for Rey in TLJ).

The universe of the OT revolved around Luke, Han, Leia and Vader. That is the universe. That is how Star Wars has always been. Its is the main characters struggle that makes the story compelling. It is why the story has always focused on that.

And the Ewoks make plenty of sense. The execution was just 80s silly imo. But is it really any different then Han running down Stormies?

 

[Mjölnir]

The universe of the OT revolved around Luke, Han, Leia and Vader. That is the universe. That is how Star Wars has always been. Its is the main characters struggle that makes the story compelling. It is why the story has always focused on that.

And the Ewoks make plenty of sense. The execution was just 80s silly imo. But is it really any different then Han running down Stormies?

Han and Leia were still central in the final conflict as their part was crucial for the success of the battle. But the real character focus weren't on them, that was on the character referenced in the title.

The execution of the Ewoks isn't just silly, it's completely unbelievable. Those little bears could barely walk properly so how can one buy that they managed to build advanced tree houses, traps and could fight the best Stormtroopers of the Empire? Some silliness is fine, like with Han who is at least somewhat of a threat, but the Ewoks ran miles over the line. Had it been Wookies it could have worked well.

 

[Iceman]

I like the idea of the ending, but the execution is a problem imo.

I simply mean they could have streamlined Canto Bight (which I enjoy but is not necessary) and just made Poe more Poe. I think this whole problem came up because Rian was looking for something to do with Poe and Finn, and just never figured it out. They also seemed to rely on making the First Order dumb. Should have had the same escape plan, with Holdo always planning on doing what she did imo. Have an actual battle on Crait. I have some ideas of what they could have done while sticking to the same basic story, but that is just a me thing.

Oh right, didn't realise you also had some issues with the ending (execution of).

I agree with all of that.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The problem I have with you're argument is you're assuming your end of the conversation is more correct than mine when you call it nostalgia, and I find that argument sort of condescending. Taste is taste. I think the character work in ANH is better and has more merit. You think TFA had it better. Disagreeing is fine, but confining my view to it being due to nostalgia and not purely on the work alone is a backhanded way of saying "I am right, you're wrong but at least you admit it." I cannot agree with that sentiment. Some people watching movies value technical things like camera work more, others enjoy other elements more. For me, story and script is normally what gets me. I appreciate all elements of film, but the story sells a movie to me. I just enjoy the story in ROTJ more and think the arcs have better payoff. When the story ends, I just feel like it accomplished more and it sent me on more of a journey I could get swept away in. Same with ANH. Yes, ANH may be dated compared to TFA, but I feel it has a better story. Disagreeing is fine, but this isn't a matter of nostalgia to me. For me, the scripts of TFA and even TLJ (which I love) had more issues.

Sorry, Spider-Fan. I should have written that better.

I am asking you what it is. I never said it had to be nostalgia, I am asking for the details of the argument beyond simply saying I like it better. It is more compelling to me. Which I feel is fine considering the post I quoted.

So basically what I am asking is, why? What pay off is there in RotJ for stories held within RotJ? What script issues do TFA and TLJ have in comparison to Star Wars and RotJ? Because for me, RotJ is one big script issue.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Sorry, Spider-Fan. I should have written that better.

We cool

I am asking you what it is. I never said it had to be nostalgia, I am asking for the details of the argument beyond simply saying I like it better. It is more compelling to me. Which I feel is fine considering the post I quoted.

So basically what I am asking is, why? What pay off is there in RotJ for stories held within RotJ? What script issues do TFA and TLJ have in comparison to Star Wars and RotJ? Because for me, RotJ is one big script issue.

TLJ, the main issue I had was Canto Bight. The Casino I agree with people does feel too close to an Earth casino. Unlike the Cantina in ANH, the aliens don't look or diverse as as well...alien. I attribute that to mo-cap vs make-up effects. Also, once they get to the animals, free them and have the chase, it both looks bad and gets a bit too cheesy (also it is very "side questy"). The storyline is salvaged once they leave the planet, but the damage to that section was already done. However, the rest of the script I love and I think it came very close to being OT quality. Just that one section

TFA, my main problem with the script is it feels too much like ANH and has too many recycled elements without putting a spin on them. Just making the Death Star bigger and kills multiple planets is not enough. This is a movie where I think nostalgia actually hurt the final product. Yeah, I think the new characters are different enough and they're fine heroes for the new saga, but it's the fact that the main story plays too many of the same notes. I understand why they approached the movie this way, I just wish if they were going to use so many similar elements, they did it more like TLJ did. Also, TFA has some moments that don't sit well to me. Like when R2 powers up randomly. What causes that? Oh and he happens to have the rest of the map! Convenient. Also, the map to Skywalker I also don't see as universe breaking as the Death Star plans. The Death Star was a threat to the galaxy, at large. Yeah, Luke is a threat to Snoke, but it feels more like they wanted to name drop Luke and explain his absence more so than have a plot that makes sense. Finding Luke is not am immediate thing like stopping the rebels from destroying their galaxy breaking weapon is. It just doesn't feel as natural.

As for the ROTJ payoff, as you even said, Luke's story is handled amazingly well. Given the 2 movies of build-up before it, seeing him meet the Empire and turn Vader is just a joy to watch. Now, ROTJ has an advantage TFA did not: 2 movies came before it. But, it's not exactly an advantage I can erase (I mean, when debating if the Patriots are going to win a game or not, you cannot discount that they have Tom Brady). I also love the beginning when they save Han from Jabba, and seeing Han come back to everyone gives that prologue great payoff, especially given how TESB left us off. We can say Han and Leia in the middle here sort of have less to do after that (and I would agree they don't arc as much), but even so, they're still great characters to watch even if their part of the material is not the juiciest. I also love how they decide to cut back and forth during the final confrontation. I don't feel it ever gets boring and has a great crescendo. I sort of just get absorbed into the movie at that point. Honestly, I get that way with TLJ as well (just, Canto Bight! ).

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Han and Leia were still central in the final conflict as their part was crucial for the success of the battle. But the real character focus weren't on them, that was on the character referenced in the title.

The execution of the Ewoks isn't just silly, it's completely unbelievable. Those little bears could barely walk properly so how can one buy that they managed to build advanced tree houses, traps and could fight the best Stormtroopers of the Empire? Some silliness is fine, like with Han who is at least somewhat of a threat, but the Ewoks ran miles over the line. Had it been Wookies it could have worked well.

None of the titles reference to Han or Leia. But in both Star Wars and Empire they have actual things to do imo. Real stories.

The issue with RotJ is they play the will they, won't they idea. That is their main thing. The problem with this imo is that there is no mystery there and thus it just eats time. We know they will. They confirmed it not only in Empire, but again at the start of the film. The one potential issue turns out to be her brother. Something we learn during the start of the second act. Its all falling action, for the final two acts. So Han spends the film being rescued, "leading" an attack on a moon, and pining for a woman who he has no reason to pine for. That is Han's story in a nutshell in RotJ. With Leia, it is a bit worse imo, because she doesn't really have any of that. What would have been compelling, her relationship with Luke, is basically minimized down to one scene. Lando suffers from the same problem of not actually having anything to do.

Also as an aside, they have their best pilot not named Skywalker on the planet. Why? Because of nonexistent love triangle. Would have been better to solidfy the Han/Leia relationship and not have them both on Endor's moon. Instead, he and Chewie should be in the Falcon.

The best Stormtroopers of the Empire didn't mean anything though. Also I get making allowances for a film made in 1983. The Ewoks are small and can barely move. But Chewie can barely run, Vader can't, but are those really ever presented as issues?

 

[Spider-Fan]

None of the titles reference to Han or Leia. But in both Star Wars and Empire they have actual things to do imo. Real stories.

The issue with RotJ is they play the will they, won't they idea. That is their main thing. The problem with this imo is that there is no mystery there and thus it just eats time. We know they will. They confirmed it not only in Empire, but again at the start of the film. The one potential issue turns out to be her brother. Something we learn during the start of the second act. Its all falling action, for the final two acts. So Han spends the film being rescued, "leading" an attack on a moon, and pining for a woman who he has no reason to pine for. That is Han's story in a nutshell in RotJ. With Leia, it is a bit worse imo, because she doesn't really have any of that. What would have been compelling, her relationship with Luke, is basically minimized down to one scene. Lando suffers from the same problem of not actually having anything to do.

Also as an aside, they have their best pilot not named Skywalker on the planet. Why? Because of nonexistent love triangle. Would have been better to solidfy the Han/Leia relationship and not have them both on Endor's moon. Instead, he and Chewie should be in the Falcon.

The best Stormtroopers of the Empire didn't mean anything though. Also I get making allowances for a film made in 1983. The Ewoks are small and can barely move. But Chewie can barely run, Vader can't, but are those really ever presented as issues?

Actually, I would say he was chosen for that mission because Han is a smuggler, and they are smuggling rebels onto the moon. So, I buy it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

We cool



TLJ, the main issue I had was Canto Bight. The Casino I agree with people does feel too close to an Earth Casino. Unlike the Cantina in ANH, the aliens don't look as diverse as as well...alien. I attribute that to mo-cap vs make-up effects. Also, once they get to the animals, free them and have the chase, it both looks bad and gets a bit too cheesy. The storyline is salvaged once they leave the planet, but the damage to that section was already done. However, the rest of the script I love and I think it came very close to being OT quality. Just that one section

TFA, my main problem with the script is it feels too much like ANH and has too many recycled elements without putting a spin on them. Just making the Death Star bigger and kills multiple planets is not enough. This is a movie where I think nostalgia actually hurt the final product. Yeah, I think the new characters are different enough and they're fine heroes for the new saga, but it's the fact that the main story plays too many of the same notes. I understand why they approached the movie this way, I just wish if they were going to use so many similar elements, they did it more like TLJ did. Also, TFA has some moments that don't sit well to me. Like when R2 powers up randomly. What causes that? Oh and he happens to have the rest of the map! Convenient. Also, the map to Skywalker I also don't see as universe breaking as the Death Star plans. The Death Star was a threat to the galaxy, at large. Yeah, Luke is a threat to Snoke, but it feels more like they wanted to name drop Luke and explain his absence more so than have a plot that makes sense. Finding Luke is not am immediate thing like stopping the rebels from destroying their galaxy breaking weapon is. It just doesn't feel as natural.

As for the ROTJ payoff, as you even said, Luke's story is handled amazingly well. Given the 2 movies of build-up before it, seeing him meet the Empire and turn Vader is just a joy to watch. Now, ROTJ has an advantage TFA did not: 2 movies came before it. But, it's not exactly an advantage I can erase (I mean, when debating if the Patriots are going to win a game or not, you cannot discount that they have Tom Brady). I also love the beginning when they save Han from Jabba, and seeing Han come back to everyone gives that prologue great payoff, especially given how TESB left us off. We can say Han and Leia in the middle here sort of have less to do after that (and I would agree they don't arc as much), but even so, they're still great characters to watch even if their part of the material is not the juiciest. I also love how they decide to cut back and forth during the final confrontation. I don't feel it ever gets boring and has a great crescendo. I sort of just get absorbed into the movie at that point. Honestly, I get that way with TLJ as well (just, Canto Bight! ).

I think Canto Bight is interesting, because I do feel like most have a problem with it, for one reason or another. Bu I think the biggest mark against it is, while I enjoy a lot of it, the film would have been better if it and DJ has been left on the cutting room floor imo. It ended up a time sink imo.

For me, Luke is more universe breaking then any Death Star plans. This goes back to what Vader said about the insignificance of such things when compared to the power of the Force. Why the story of RotJ does not hinge on Death Star II, but Luke trying to save his father from the dark side. The war between the light and the dark, the existence of the Jedi, are not only the main conflict of the saga, but have real universe consequences. There is no Rebellion post Star Wars if not for Luke Skywalker. No Resistance, without Luke and Rey.

As to R2 powering on, he is in low power mode. Literally waiting for the other part of the map. I also don't think it is convenient for him to have half of the map. R2 has one half, Lor San Tekka has the other. Both have a relationship with Luke.

You cite Starkiller as a problem for TFA. But RotJ literally has a bigger Death Star. Is that not a problem? It functions in a very similar matter in both TFA and RotJ. One of my major issues with RotJ is how I don't really care about what is happening in 2 of the 3 bits at the end. Luke/Vader/Sheev, completely absorbed. But basically I get the feeling I do when TFA cuts to Poe trying to destroy Starkiller base. I don't really care. I also have this problem with Rogue One, but it is worse there imo. Because basically all my attention is on a space battle, that doesn't have much of anything to do with the characters we spent most of the film with. And tha is odd with Rogue One, because the main story bit is the Death Star plans. With TFA and RotJ, the parts that don't really compel me don't because I know what is going to happen with them. Because they are the bits that "don't matter" if that makes sense.

I think TLJ has a badly unbalanced third act. One that is too short. But I also think that it gets the climax right. Star Wars and Empire right. Mainly as it simply holds its focus. It doesn't drift, it sticks to what matters.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Actually, I would say he was chosen for that mission because Han is a smuggler, and they are smuggling rebels onto the moon.

That would make sense. But what does Han do that makes that significant? All he does is fly the ship and give the code. A code that only works because Vader knows Luke is there.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think Canto Bight is interesting, because I do feel like most have a problem with it, for one reason or another. Bu I think the biggest mark against it is, while I enjoy a lot of it, the film would have been better if it and DJ has been left on the cutting room floor imo. It ended up a time sink imo.

For me, Luke is more universe breaking then any Death Star plans. This goes back to what Vader said about the insignificance of such things when compared to the power of the Force. Why the story of RotJ does not hinge on Death Star II, but Luke trying to save his father from the dark side. The war between the light and the dark, the existence of the Jedi, are not only the main conflict of the saga, but have real universe consequences. There is no Rebellion post Star Wars if not for Luke Skywalker. No Resistance, without Luke and Rey.

This is actually a point I may give you. Thinking of it in those terms, that makes more sense why Snoke is in a rush to find him. Good call

As to R2 powering on, he is in low power mode. Literally waiting for the other part of the map. I also don't think it is convenient for him to have half of the map. R2 has one half, Lor San Tekka has the other. Both have a relationship with Luke.

But, BB8 had arrived on their much earlier. Why didn't he power on then?

You cite Starkiller as a problem for TFA. But RotJ literally has a bigger Death Star. Is that not a problem? It functions in a very similar matter in both TFA and RotJ. One of my major issues with RotJ is how I don't really care about what is happening in 2 of the 3 bits at the end. Luke/Vader/Sheev, completely absorbed. But basically I get the feeling I do when TFA cuts to Poe trying to destroy Starkiller base. I don't really care. I also have this problem with Rogue One, but it is worse there imo. Because basically all my attention is on a space battle, that doesn't have much of anything to do with the characters we spent most of the film with. And tha is odd with Rogue One, because the main story bit is the Death Star plans. With TFA and RotJ, the parts that don't really compel me don't because I know what is going to happen with them. Because they are the bits that "don't matter" if that makes sense.

The difference for me is Death Star II isn't used the same way. It is used as a trap for the rebels and has a different place in the plot. In TFA, they're showing off their super weapon and superiority much like was done in ANH.

I think TLJ has a badly unbalanced third act. One that is too short. But I also think that it gets the climax right. Star Wars and Empire right. Mainly as it simply holds its focus. It doesn't drift, it sticks to what matters.

TLJ is weird because it has like 2 mega climaxes, which I cannot think of a movie besides ROTK that attempted something of that magnitude. But, I am not complaining as both are well done.

 

[Spider-Fan]

That would make sense. But what does Han do that makes that significant? All he does is fly the ship and give the code. A code that only works because Vader knows Luke is there.

I don't think they were accounting for Vader at all, LOL! You're right he doesn't do a whole lot, but Han is someone who could have sold it if it started to go South. Why leave such an important moment to chance? Especially if Lando can be pilot the ship fairly well.

 

[Mjölnir]

None of the titles reference to Han or Leia. But in both Star Wars and Empire they have actual things to do imo. Real stories.

The issue with RotJ is they play the will they, won't they idea. That is their main thing. The problem with this imo is that there is no mystery there and thus it just eats time. We know they will. They confirmed it not only in Empire, but again at the start of the film. The one potential issue turns out to be her brother. Something we learn during the start of the second act. Its all falling action, for the final two acts. So Han spends the film being rescued, "leading" an attack on a moon, and pining for a woman who he has no reason to pine for. That is Han's story in a nutshell in RotJ. With Leia, it is a bit worse imo, because she doesn't really have any of that. What would have been compelling, her relationship with Luke, is basically minimized down to one scene. Lando suffers from the same problem of not actually having anything to do.

Also as an aside, they have their best pilot not named Skywalker on the planet. Why? Because of nonexistent love triangle. Would have been better to solidfy the Han/Leia relationship and not have them both on Endor's moon. Instead, he and Chewie should be in the Falcon.

The best Stormtroopers of the Empire didn't mean anything though. Also I get making allowances for a film made in 1983. The Ewoks are small and can barely move. But Chewie can barely run, Vader can't, but are those really ever presented as issues?

In terms of doing, Leia's story in ANH is pretty much get captured and get saved. She gets to do more on her own in RotJ.

Does anyone actually say Han's the best pilot? It's mainly the Millennium Falcon that gets played up when they talk Han piloting feats. He's clearly an exceptional pilot but I didn't see Lando doing worse, nor heard anyone say that he is worse.

I'm not sure I can even pretend that the question about if Chewie or Vader comes off as more capable than Ewoks is serious. To have to point out how they play up Chewie's strength in a way that actually works on screen (plus that he actually has a blaster weapon and is good with technology), or that Vader has the Force and his lightsaber, seems odd.

I've never been someone that hasn't said that the OT doesn't have it's share of flaws. I just can't agree that the Ewoks aren't the worst part, or that any of the new films has anything that matches RotJ's best parts.

 

[jmart]

Jedi easily. I don't think I cared about anyone in Rogue One. I'm going to give it another shot though. I only saw it once and stuff that happened earlier in the day that I saw it might have clouded my enjoyment.

 

[HammerDown]

Rogue One is still for me the best movie of all the new SW movies. And so it takes it over TLJ which i found to be a bit of a strange movie with a few missteps in terms of humor, missed opportunities... It was a new take on a lot of established stuff and i don't think it worked that well.