The Last Jedi TFA vs TLJ

TFA vs TLJ

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Several months later, TFA has aged nicely in my mind, and it's one I enjoy going back to and frequently do. Last Jedi, I've gotten to a point with this movie where I'm not sure I even like it anymore, and the more I think about it, the less I like it. I can enjoy it while watching though still, so long as I don't really think about it. I'm just glad it hasn't affected my enjoyment of TFA.
 
Over 2 years on, TFA is one of my 10 favorite films and my second favorite Star Wars movie. TLJ hasn't has aged as poorly as Rogue One has for me, but it just... there. Me praying JJ will get some live of out of it with IX.
 
There isn't much to crap on. Blade Runner was a cursed world with sinful characters. Nobody idolized or looked up to Decard. This is different from the worship, idolatry, and day dreaming about the Jedi order. It needed to be torn down and rebuilt.

Was talking more about the fans of said movies and characters.
 
Several months later, TFA has aged nicely in my mind, and it's one I enjoy going back to and frequently do. Last Jedi, I've gotten to a point with this movie where I'm not sure I even like it anymore, and the more I think about it, the less I like it. I can enjoy it while watching though still, so long as I don't really think about it. I'm just glad it hasn't affected my enjoyment of TFA.

I haven’t watched watched TFA since seeing TLJ, so this gives me hope I can still enjoy TFA, despite me feeling TLJ dropped the ball on pretty much everything TFA set up.

Couldn’t agree more with your thoughts on TLJ though.
 
I can still watch TFA and enjoy it. Feels like classic Star Wars

TLJ continues to be a steaming pile of hot garbage. Tried watching the other day and couldn't bring myself to finish it
 
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I can still watch TFA and enjoy it. Feels like classic Star Wars

TLJ continues to be a steaming pile of hot garbage. Tried watching the other day and couldn't bring myself to finish it

I can watch and enjoy TLJ, watched it again today. And I enjoy it while I was it. But then I think about it after and half of it just falls apart.

TFA though gets the hairs on the back of my neck to stand up several times throughout.
 
While I love The last Jedi and I do enjoy it, The Force Awakens is the better film in my opinion. Theres something so special about The Force awakens That still, to this day, gives me chills. Its my 3rd fave Star Wars film, right under Empire and a New Hope. So yes, The Force Awakens for me.
 
I think TFA is definitely a smoother ride, but the thing I cannot get around is the fact that I vastly prefer the third act of TLJ. It's just more exciting and visually striking to me, and it's going to be the one truly 'glorious' moment for any of the OT cast in this trilogy. As a longtime, I thought it was a note perfect sendoff for Luke. Which I thin was appropriate and necessary after mystery boxing him in TFA. He needed his moment to shine and be the legend we all wanted him to be.

Overall though, I like both films fairly equally. I was never on board with the idea that TLJ was a slap in the face to TFA, so I have no trouble viewing it as one story.
 
I think, by it's very nature, The Force Awakens is easier to watch on it's own as it's a thrill-ride with a beginning and ending, albeit setting up the bigger story. The Last Jedi is slower and heavier, has neither a beginning nor an end, and basically complicates everything without resolution.
 
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I think, by it's very nature, The Force Awakens is easier to watch on it's own as it's a thrill-ride with a beginning and ending, albeit setting up the bigger story. The Last Jedi is slower and heavier, has neither a beginning nor an end, and basically complicates everything without resolution.

Hmm, that reminds me of another film in this franchise... :cwink:
 
I would say Empire is a far better movie and achieves its goal far more than TLJ does though.

Unless you were talking about Attack Of The Clones :cwink:.
 
I would say Empire is a far better movie and achieves its goal far more than TLJ does though.

Unless you were talking about Attack Of The Clones :cwink:.

Well, sure, obviously Empire is much better. That's kind of a no-brainer. But A New Hope is also much better than TFA, by default imo. So the whole quality scale of the two trilogies inevitably skews to the OT, of course. To notice some narrative similarities between TLJ and Empire is in no way intended to equate them- it's just kind of ironic knowing that Empire was not warmly received at first. And that's also not to say TLJ will some day become as revered- I don't think it will. But I do think having the context of how the trilogy ends will help some people accept its place in the story vs. just seeing it as an antithesis to TFA intended to shock. As long as IX manages to tie things together in a satisfactory way, that is.

The ST is burdened with having to try and echo/honor these giants of cinema while pushing the franchise forward for a new generation, and it's a very tough balance to pull off. They definitely haven't pulled it off flawlessly. I think both TFA and TLJ could've probably used some rewrites. But everyone I talk to who are enjoying the new films are on the same page as me there. We don't have any illusions about these films being on par with the originals, but still think by 2018 blockbuster standards they are pretty darn enjoyable and as Star Wars fans, they're keeping the mythology fresh enough.
 
I def agree there. I don't think either TFA or TLJ are OT quality, but I am enjoying the ST overall. It's not perfect and I think there are some clear issues, but they're Star Wars movies I will actively watch (unlike the PT).
 
I've only once been able to get through TLJ since buying it on home media but have enjoyed both TFA and Rogue One so much more. Thus, I like TFA more since it has some rather enjoyable set pieces and character arcs while TLJ is kind of a joyless suck that doesn't have any real excitement until the final act. TLJ also wastes many of TFA's perfect set-ups for supposed big twists that end up flopping.
 
The Force Awakens. The only thing I really like from TLJ are the Rey & Kylo scenes. Whenever I pop in my DVD I fast forward to their parts and skip the rest of the movie.

I've watched TFA multiple times all the way through and never get sick of giving it a go.
 
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The Last Jedi is, in my opinion, a superior movie... it's better written, better acted, more deep, more mature, more surprising. Pacing is may be the only point where The Force Awakens is perhaps better... But TLJ has a lot more soul (and i liked TFA)...
I think the only reason people hated TLJ is because the movie rubs the audience in the wrong way and some people cannot bear this... i can if it worth it.. and it did..
 
The Force Awakens is watchable and entertaining. I kept criticizing the Last Jedi step by step through the way.
 
TLJ is by far the superior film. The only thing that TFA has over it, like someone say, is the pacing.
 
The Last Jedi is by far the better movie. I like TFA fine, but on exception of Rey and Finn there is nothing genuinely unique about it. To be fair to it too, I understand why. It was more important to get the fans back after the prequels by reminding them what Star Wars is by putting together a greatest hits package in a shiny new package. However it's also why it feels so perfunctory to me.

Last Jedi on the other hand is a far richer experience. I admit there are things I wanted to see that I didn't get, but what I got in place were things I never realized I wanted.
 
Well, sure, obviously Empire is much better. That's kind of a no-brainer. But A New Hope is also much better than TFA, by default imo. So the whole quality scale of the two trilogies inevitably skews to the OT, of course. To notice some narrative similarities between TLJ and Empire is in no way intended to equate them- it's just kind of ironic knowing that Empire was not warmly received at first. And that's also not to say TLJ will some day become as revered- I don't think it will. But I do think having the context of how the trilogy ends will help some people accept its place in the story vs. just seeing it as an antithesis to TFA intended to shock. As long as IX manages to tie things together in a satisfactory way, that is.

The ST is burdened with having to try and echo/honor these giants of cinema while pushing the franchise forward for a new generation, and it's a very tough balance to pull off. They definitely haven't pulled it off flawlessly. I think both TFA and TLJ could've probably used some rewrites. But everyone I talk to who are enjoying the new films are on the same page as me there. We don't have any illusions about these films being on par with the originals, but still think by 2018 blockbuster standards they are pretty darn enjoyable and as Star Wars fans, they're keeping the mythology fresh enough.
I'd take TFA over Star Wars. Better characters, better pacing, better story, better set pieces, better writing, better movie imo. The greatness of Star Wars comes in with Empire. Which helped define the OT and its characters far more then the first film did.
 
I'd take TFA over Star Wars. Better characters, better pacing, better story, better set pieces, better writing, better movie imo. The greatness of Star Wars comes in with Empire. Which helped define the OT and its characters far more then the first film did.

This is a very interesting point. I do agree with you that objectively speaking TFA is better on a technical level in every facet, and imo certain story things that happen in ANH, would not be as acceptable if it happened in a later installment, such as Luke being so easily accepted in the assault on the Death Star just because why not. However I still would rate ANH over TFA because JJ used Episode IV as a crutch to form his story. All the episodes across all the trilogys "rhyme" a bit to their corresponding installment but TFA excessively echos ANH it that I can't imagine what this movie would've been like without Episode IV to refer to.
 
This is a very interesting point. I do agree with you that objectively speaking TFA is better on a technical level in every facet, and imo certain story things that happen in ANH, would not be as acceptable if it happened in a later installment, such as Luke being so easily accepted in the assault on the Death Star just because why not. However I still would rate ANH over TFA because JJ used Episode IV as a crutch to form his story. All the episodes across all the trilogys "rhyme" a bit to their corresponding installment but TFA excessively echos ANH it that I can't imagine what this movie would've been like without Episode IV to refer to.
That's a justified sentiment.

Though I will argue that TFA does have one very significant difference from ANH, one that maybe personifies why someone might find TFA a better "cover" of ANH than the original, and why I do think that TFA is clearly better written than TLJ: the three new characters and their individual arcs are absurdly strong compared to the par for the series, even for the standard set by the OT.

Finn, Rey, and Kylo are all either major twists or outright inversions of the archetypes from ANH, all of whom have pretty damn good character arcs in TFA.

Rey and Kylo are basically deliberately reveresed variations on Luke and Vader: where Luke was a loved member of a family struggling with wanderlust and a bit of immaturity at the start of his story, Rey is a loner abandoned by her family obsessively clinging to denial but otherwise wise beyond her years unless that denial is challenged, and while Vader is a confident, heavily scarred and injured but veteran commander with a cynical edge, Kylo is an insecure and unstable neophyte in comparison with a twisted idealization of Vader. Finn, meanwhile, is a direct refutation of the "Stormtroopers are nameless and faceless automatons" archetype, and arguably the best "Everyman" character in the franchise, not even having the skills of a Solo or Padme, simply being awesome with mundane abilities and bravery.

And their arcs are all excellent. I'd match Finn's arc up against any other single film arc in the Saga, and pretty confidently say Finn wins it: he goes from a nameless and faceless grunt in the background to the Resistance big deal that successfully and believably humiliates Phasma, helps blow up Hux's favorite toy, and holds off Kylo long enough for Rey to get back up for round 2. Meanwhile, Rey and Kylo are in diametrically opposing arcs: she rises to the occasion and finally embraces the destiny she wanted to deny while he falls to his own self-destructive decisions while foolishly trying to become something he's not. All are beautifully executed, to the extent that the film can convincingly use multiple dialogue-lite scenes for all three characters.

In contrast... I'd have to say that TLJ has some of the weakest and most poorly constructed character arcs and interpretations for the Saga, including the PT. That's not to say that the PT's cast was giving anywhere near the performances that Rian Johnson and the cast provided in TLJ, or that TLJ lacked for potential and ambition in character arcs (...except for Finn's, which I'd say was the definition of unambitious and apathetic). There's inspiration behind the ideas of having Luke go through a total deconstruction/reconstruction arc, and for Kylo and Rey allying against Snoke with Snoke ending up dead and Kylo replacing him, for a Space Chase or for Rey being a Random instead of a Related. But the arcs are determined by myopic narrative convenience rather than growth or believable change:

-Rey is never given a reason to sympathize with Kylo since the film never addresses what he did to her and her friends,
-Kylo and Rey both fail to develope into genuine Big Bad and Lead Heroine since neither one trains and Johnson wants Kylo as a protagonist instead of anatagonist and just doesn't know how to write Rey as a lead,
-Rey's parentage being Random is supposed to have an egalitarian and non-Skywalker-tied autonomy, but she's boringly overpowered and only just so because Kylo is,
-And at every step, the Space Chase is a mess of self-defeating contradictions and logical fallacies.

Luke's about the only risky gamble taken by TLJ that actually had care and patience put into it... But arguably went way too far in its deconstruction, enough that Mark Hamill disagreed enough to accidentally provide critics with the "Jake Skywalker" argument that Luke was written out of character.
 

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